Vindicator in raids?

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

Well, no. Yes is technically not necessary. You can beat raids with much lower dps with maybe the exception of htcm. What people generally do not like is that is not fun to play something that is noticeably worse than others. That's really it. This is a game right? So I would think trying to have as much fun as possible is the goal yes?

OK ... and we have choice to play how we want in that case. I mean, it should be pretty obvious at this point ... specs aren't made to order so they fulfill all of every player's criteria to play how they want. 

I mean, are you going to tell me there is a massive problem where a few people have limited their choices to the point where they can't have fun because those choices don't include a combination of 'Raids" + "Vindicator" + "DPS"? That doesn't make much sense ... they have just been playing the game and never having fun because this doesn't exists?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... and we have choice to play how we want in that case. I mean, it should be pretty obvious at this point ... specs aren't made to order so they fulfill all of every player's criteria to play how they want. 

I mean, are you going to tell me there is a massive problem where a few people have limited their choices to the point where they can't have fun because those choices don't include a combination of 'Raids" + "Vindicator" + "DPS"? That doesn't make much sense ... they have just been playing the game and never having fun because this doesn't exists?

In this case though it is very obvious of how the spec is made to be. It is designed as a power dps. I don't think there's much to debate about it and it is very mediocre at it in raids. So why not buff it? 

 

I am more curious why are you so against other people trying to suggest what makes the game fun for them. Is not like buffing Vindicators dps takes away others fun. I also never said about never having fun, but it is generally less fun. Why exactly are you against buffing the spec in general? I am not talking about specifics of how to do it but rather you just seem to be saying no to the general direction. Why is that?

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

In this case though it is very obvious of how the spec is made to be. It is designed as a power dps. I don't think there's much to debate about it and it is very mediocre at it in raids. So why not buff it? 

 

I am more curious why are you so against other people trying to suggest what makes the game fun for them. Is not like buffing Vindicators dps takes away others fun. I also never said about never having fun, but it is generally less fun. Why exactly are you against buffing the spec in general? I am not talking about specifics of how to do it but rather you just seem to be saying no to the general direction. Why is that?

And it is a power DPS ... it's just not competitive with other power DPS for raids. The debate was never if its power DPS or not. Why not buff it? For the reasons that exist to not do so, whatever those are. They have been discussed. 

I'm not against it because it would be fun for them, so that question doesn't even make sense to me. If you want to see my reasons to not buff Vindicator to raid competitive DPS levels, just read my posts in the threads about the topic. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And it is a power DPS ... it's just not competitive with other power DPS for raids. The debate was never if its power DPS or not. 

Yes, it is not very competitive because is a selfish power dps with not enough dps to show for it. So generally you would think trying to make it competitive would be a good way to go about it right? So why are you disagreeing with the general direction? 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Yes, it is not very competitive because is a selfish power dps with not enough dps to show for it. So generally you would think trying to make it competitive would be a good way to go about it right? So why are you disagreeing with the general direction? 

Well, that's an oversimplication. Vindicator is much more than JUST a selfish power DPS. That's part of the problem with people's complaints ... ignoring what the concept of the Vindicator is as a whole, just to argue some part of it is deficient. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's an oversimplication. Vindicator is much more than JUST a selfish power DPS. 

Yes, clearly its at fb and mech level 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, soul.9651 said:

Yes, clearly its at fb and mech level 

Weird response ... Vindicator isn't at FB or mech level for anything. If you have a point, just make it. 

[Warscythes.9307]

 

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And it is a power DPS ... it's just not competitive with other power DPS for raids. The debate was never if its power DPS or not. Why not buff it? For the reasons that exist to not do so, whatever those are. They have been discussed. 

I'm not against it because it would be fun for them, so that question doesn't even make sense to me. If you want to see my reasons to not buff Vindicator to raid competitive DPS levels, just read my posts in the threads about the topic. 

 

There's 8 pages in this thread and I am at work. So I am afraid you are going to have to summarize it for me.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

 

There's 8 pages in this thread and I am at work. So I am afraid you are going to have to summarize it for me.

No, that's OK ... I can wait until you get home from work to read it yourself. Consider it the least you can do  if you are REALLY interested in what I think and participating in an honest discussion.

Or better yet, think of reasons yourself why Vindicator wouldn't be buffed to competitive DPS levels, even if you don't want to believe them or think they are true. It's not that hard.  That's always a good starting point to understand why something isn't the way you think it should be. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's OK. I mean, when was the last time Anet dropped 30-40% DPS on something so it could compete as a DPS spot in raids? It's OK ... I can wait. 

I can actually answer this one. Scourge.

 

Scourge before all the torment changes bench around 28k dps. I know this because I am a necro main and I was one of the first people to beat Dhuum as scourge dps/kite/green. Trust me when I say I watched the numbers very closely. It then got buffed to around 36-37k and remains pretty consistently at about 35.5k at the moment. So 8k/28k is about 28%-29% buff which I think is close to whatever you are talking about.

 

Now I don't think Vindicator need 30-40% damage buff though. That would be bladesworn bench tier and if you know how bladesworn bench worked, you would know that is not great due to the 80% dragon slash meme.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I can actually answer this one. Scourge.

 

Scourge before all the torment changes bench around 28k dps. I know this because I am a necro main and I was one of the first people to beat Dhuum as scourge dps/kite/green. Trust me when I say I watched the numbers very closely. It then got buffed to around 36-37k and remains pretty consistently at about 35.5k at the moment. So 8k/28k is about 28%-29% buff which I think is close to whatever you are talking about.

 

Now I don't think Vindicator need 30-40% damage buff though. That would be bladesworn bench tier and if you know how bladesworn bench worked, you would know that is not great due to the 80% dragon slash meme.

Hold on ... the torment change was game-wide, not spec specific and Scourge was already finding a place in raids because of it's supportive nature.

So no, Anet didn't dump massive DPS on Scourge so it could compete in raids. That's not even close to the situation we are talking about here. 

And yes, if Vindicator wants to compete at a DPS spot in raids, the buff needs to be about 30-40%. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... Scourge was meta before the torment change and the torment change was game-wide, not spec specific.

So no, Anet didn't dump massive DPS on it Scourge to compete in raids ... it was already there. 

And yes, if Vindicator wants to compete at a DPS spot in raids, the buff needs to be about 30-40%. 

It was definitely not meta. People memed on scourge since release. I specifically got called out for why bring scourge to dhuum. The dps went up a little bit but it was not until the torment change that scourge got to the point today. So no, it was not already there. 

 

Also no, Vindicator does not need 30-40% damage buff to be a competitive dps spot at raids. Where are you even getting it from? It bench 34k right now at small golem, 30% buff would be 44k dps. Are you crazy?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

It was definitely not meta. People memed on scourge since release. I specifically got called out for why bring scourge to dhuum. The dps went up a little bit but it was not until the torment change that scourge got to the point today. So no, it was not already there. 

 

Also no, Vindicator does not need 30-40% damage buff to be a competitive dps spot at raids. Where are you even getting it from? It bench 34k right now at small golem, 30% buff would be 44k dps. Are you crazy?

Fair, I did overspeak. But Scourge it did have a place in raids and it didn't need a massive DPS to make that happen either. 

Right .. so if Vindicator can't get a team at it's current 35K ... that's just a player issue. As I suspect, all this wailing about 'not competitive in raids' is just a ruse to pump DPS. The fun part is that when people want to QQ about how bad Vindicator DPS is ... you see them quote numbers below 30K. When you see people just claiming 'it only needs a little bit more", you get numbers like 35K. Hard to tell who's telling the truth here. Frankly, I don't care what the number is. It's not a problem if Vindicator doesn't compete with other DPS raid specs in the first place... just like it's not a problem for LOTS of specs to not compete at the tiop with other specs for raids spots

Like, if Vindicator is getting the numbers you are talking about, that's /thread. We shouldn't hear about Vindicators not getting teamed anymore because of DPS ... BUT if we do, then something not adding up with the numbers or the claims people are making right?

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Fair, I did overspeak. But Scourge it did have a place in raids and it didn't need a massive DPS to make that happen either. 

Right .. so if Vindicator can't get a team at it's current 35K ... that's just a player issue. As I suspect, all this wailing about 'not competitive in raids' is just a ruse to pump DPS. The fun part is that when people want to QQ about how bad Vindicator DPS is ... you see them quote numbers below 30K. When you see people just claiming 'it only needs a little bit more", you get numbers like 35K. Hard to tell who's telling the truth here. Frankly, I don't care what the number is. It's not a problem if Vindicator doesn't compete with other DPS raid specs in the first place. 

Like, if Vindicator is getting the numbers you are talking about, that's /thread. We shouldn't hear about Vindicators not getting teamed anymore because of DPS ... BUT if we do, then something not adding up with the numbers or the claims people are making right?

 

Scourge did not have a place in raids until anet massively overbuffed them which made people realize that having consistent safe range dps is more important than meme bench marks. I don't want to derail the thread too much since this is the rev forum, so I will stop the necro talk.

 

Vindicator can definitely get a spot at most places barring extreme ones like htcm, kocm, ankka cm etc. But then again I can pug with power reaper and that is currently at 30k dps. However it is also true that Vindicator bench lower than what it should be. You specifically said itself that it's just not competitive with other power DPS for raids. What is there to ruse about? Your post is like a couple above mine. So is not competitive and people want to buff it to other power dps levels because it would be more fun if the classes are more balanced. 

What is the issue with this again?

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Vindicator can definitely get a spot at most places barring extreme ones like htcm, kocm, ankka cm etc. But then again I can pug with power reaper and that is currently at 30k dps. However it is also true that Vindicator bench lower than what it should be. You specifically said itself that it's just not competitive with other power DPS for raids. What is there to ruse about? Your post is like a couple above mine. So is not competitive and people want to buff it to other power dps levels because it would be more fun if the classes are more balanced. 

What is the issue with this again?

There you go then ... I mean, you answered your own question. If you can PUG with power reaper, then it should be obvious why people QQing about Vindicator DPS keeping them from getting a raid team is a ruse. Why can't they do that with Vindicator too, especially if you are saying they are benching 35K? 

The issue is simple; not having competitive DPS isn't an honest reason to buff Vindicator DPS if they can already do raids and be successful. That's not a new issue either. It's the same issue with any other class people have complained about for the last 10 years not having competitive DPS ... and yet, when people use their choices for how to play, problem solved. Amazing right?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There you go then ... I mean, you answered your own question. If you can PUG with power reaper, then it should be obvious why people QQing about Vindicator DPS keeping them from getting a raid team is a ruse. Why can't they do that with Vindicator too, especially if you are saying they are benching 35K? 

The issue is simple; not having competitive DPS isn't an honest reason to buff Vindicator DPS if they can already do raids and be successful. That's not a new issue either. It's the same issue with any other class people have complained about for the last 10 years not having competitive DPS ... and yet, when people use their choices for how to play, problem solved. Amazing right?

34k.

I haven't read the entire 8 pages of thread, but you can pug for Vindicator just fine in most raids barring the more difficult ones as I have discussed about. Though that's not exactly a small list to be fair. 

 

As for the reason for buffing? Well I felt I have explained it earlier, because is not/less fun when what you are playing is noticeably weaker than other classes. Actually do you know exactly why people are ok with letting in the weaker classes like reaper in most raids. Is because the power creep has been so consistent and differences so large that a really meta dps can basically carry the lower dps. A bladesworn does maybe 30% more damage than a power reaper and because of that, it is making up for the difference. The power reaper player is getting carried by another player and I don't know about you but most people don't like getting carried, especially in dps just because of class choices.

 

So why is wishing your class to be more fun by buffing its dps an issue? Is not like people are asking this to incredibly overpowered that it takes away other people's fun. This is a net positive if done correctly.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

34k.

I haven't read the entire 8 pages of thread, but you can pug for Vindicator just fine in most raids barring the more difficult ones as I have discussed about. Though that's not exactly a small list to be fair. 

Great ... then the problem where 'Vindicator can't team because low DPS' isn't ACTUALLY a problem then is it and people shouldn't be basing their arguments to get more DPS on it, especially if more DPS doesn't fix that problem. 

It's not an issue to want buffs but wanting them is simply not a reason to buff something though. People want lots of things. Wanting isn't a reason for getting. Neither is 'can't get raid teams' when that's clearly incorrect as well.  

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great ... then the problem where 'Vindicator can't team because low DPS' isn't ACTUALLY a problem then is it and people shouldn't be basing their arguments to get more DPS on it, especially if more DPS doesn't fix that problem. 

It's not an issue to want buffs but wanting them is simply not a reason to buff something though. People want lots of things. Wanting isn't a reason for getting. Neither is 'can't get raid teams' when that's clearly incorrect as well.  

Here's the thing though, I feel you are not understanding the impact of "able to pug raids except for the harder ones". The harder ones are very important as they are usually the newest, generally more lucrative and for the most part designed better aka more fun. You are not going to find a raid team as a vindicator for those. So they are correct, you just don't understand how raiding works and having more dps would definitely fix that problem.

 

The reason for people wanting buffs is as I said before is that it is weaker and thus generally people have less fun. Is not "because I want to" rather it is "I want to because XYZ". You are looking at the first part and just completely ignores XYZ reasons provided to what constitute the want. I feel this is about as valid as you can get in a video game. Why am I playing a game if not for fun? Why can't I have more fun if they can buff my class as long as it does not take away other people's fun? I am just incredibly weirded out by how much you are against changes if done correctly can only provide benefits. 

I am going to eat dinner. So you have fun here, or not, I don't really care as it seems that's not generally a concern of yours. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Here's the thing though, I feel you are not understanding the impact of "able to pug raids except for the harder ones". The harder ones are very important as they are usually the newest, generally more lucrative and for the most part designed better aka more fun. You are not going to find a raid team as a vindicator for those. So they are correct, you just don't understand how raiding works and having more dps would definitely fix that problem.

 

The reason for people wanting buffs is as I said before is that it is weaker and thus generally people have less fun. Is not "because I want to" rather it is "I want to because XYZ". You are looking at the first part and just completely ignores XYZ reasons provided to what constitute the want. I feel this is about as valid as you can get in a video game. Why am I playing a game if not for fun? Why can't I have more fun if they can buff my class as long as it does not take away other people's fun? I am just incredibly weirded out by how much you are against changes if done correctly can only provide benefits. 

 

Well, I do understand it. I also understand that everything not being the best is a consequence of Anet enabling people to play how they want. If you can play how you want and succeed, the need to choose what is best doesn't exist like in other games.

I mean, even in the harder raids, it's not even a question of Vindicator being excluded because of capability; so are other classes and specs. That's not a new problem IMO and it's not exclusive to Vindicator for sure. The solution to that is ... the same as it's always been. Make your own team with people that don't care about what you play. If the CM strikes are exceptions to the idea of being able to play how you want, it's not a forgone conclusion every spec needs to be buffed to be included there. It's actually quite possible that Vindicator is not regarded as a high performance team spec. 

If people's fun is contingent on performance, especially performance levels related to the harder raids, then that's a self imposed and extremely limiting criteria. Anet doesn't need to fix that for people. If the raids are so hard they can only be done by the highest performing specs, the solution (if that's even a problem to begin with) isn't to make all specs super high performing.  

Again, this fallacy of 'not having fun'. I don't buy it. Like all the sudden, the game isn't fun because a new spec doesn't fit someone's idea of where it should be good or how it should work. The answer there is simple; if it's a choice that isn't fun for someone, they don't have to play it. There is no requirement that Anet make everything fun for everyone. That should also be a pretty easy choice considering how bad everyone is trying to make Vindicator sound in raids. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

I mean you can say what ever you wanna say, what anet should or shouldnt do @Obtena.7952 but yet again anet is going to the opposite side you were talking about with Li builds, and after they are done with mech ill be waitting the same happening for the rest of current meta Li builds just to watch how wrong your ideas were. And same goes to vindicators as much as you dont like it, they are slowly getting those buffs and QoL changes already at the point where one more good buff(3k buff isnt that unrealistic from one balance patch) could make it finaly competitive and at the same time prove you wrong yet again.

and you mentioning that old scourge had its place in raids, lets bring back the old scourge and nerf it to 32k benchmark (it was something like that, maybe im beeing even too generous) surely you wouldnt see any problem in that when it was good already according to you

Edited September 21, 2022 by soul.9651

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... the torment change was game-wide, not spec specific and Scourge was already finding a place in raids because of it's supportive nature.

So no, Anet didn't dump massive DPS on Scourge so it could compete in raids. That's not even close to the situation we are talking about here. 

And yes, if Vindicator wants to compete at a DPS spot in raids, the buff needs to be about 30-40%. 

Power Chronomancer went from under 30k to 41k at one point. It’s been done in the past for various specs. The idea that they haven’t buffed any specs by 30-40% is ludicrous and completely ignores game history, but that’s nothing new in these responses 

Edited September 21, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Power Chronomancer went from under 30k to 41k at one point. It’s been done in the past for various specs. The idea that they haven’t buffed any specs by 30-40% is ludicrous and completely ignores game history, but that’s nothing new in these responses 

Again, I'm not talking about general game changes that suddenly impart massive DPS on classes. I'm talking about instances where Anet come in, and added massive DPS to a class so it can compete for a DPS slot in teams. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

I mean you can say what ever you wanna say, what anet should or shouldnt do @Obtena.7952 but yet again anet is going to the opposite side you were talking about with Li builds, and after they are done with mech ill be waitting the same happening for the rest of current meta Li builds just to watch how wrong your ideas were. And same goes to vindicators as much as you dont like it, they are slowly getting those buffs and QoL changes already at the point where one more good buff(3k buff isnt that unrealistic from one balance patch) could make it finaly competitive and at the same time prove you wrong yet again.

and you mentioning that old scourge had its place in raids, lets bring back the old scourge and nerf it to 32k benchmark (it was something like that, maybe im beeing even too generous) surely you wouldnt see any problem in that when it was good already according to you

As a pure DPS spec, Vindicator getting a 3K DPS buff is simply not enough for it to compete for a DPS slot. Pure DPS classes do not compete for a DPS slot unless they are TOP DPS. That's been proven time and again in this game. It didn't (and still doesn't) work for Reaper, it's not going to work for Vindicator. 

as for the 'opposite side' nonsense ... I don't know what you are going on about. As long as power rifle LI builds is a 'thing', my views are aligned with the game. The same views that understand why complaining about Vindicator not being raid competitive DPS is a ruse when requesting non-competitive increases in DPS for Vindicator.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

As a pure DPS spec, Vindicator getting a 3K DPS buff is simply not enough for it to compete for a DPS slot. Pure DPS classes do not compete for a DPS slot unless they are TOP DPS. That's been proven time and again in this game. It didn't (and still doesn't) work for Reaper, it's not going to work for Vindicator. 

as for the 'opposite side' nonsense ... I don't know what you are going on about. As long as power rifle LI builds is a 'thing', my views are aligned with the game. The same views that understand why complaining about not being raid competitive DPS is a ruse when requesting non-competitive increases in DPS for Vindicator.

No, it doesnt need to have a top benchmark to be competitive dps, a standart 38k will be enough. And funny how you view reaper the same, personally idc about it but there are plenty of posts saying otherwise about reaper's dps and how it sucks, you are ONLY ONE saying rn that reaper is good enough, and the same goes with vindicator. Again, it looks like that you are the one who wants to see the world burning for those underperforming specs. I bet you would say that dh is fine as it is rn aswell 

Edited September 21, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

No, it doesnt need to have a top benchmark to be competitive dps, a standart 38k will be enough. 

Yes it does because optimal PUG groups won't take it as a pure DPS @ 38K. We have already seen this many times in this game. Vindicator isn't different. Again, why would a DPS spot in an optimal team go to a 38K Vindicator if they can take another spec that does the same amount AND provides team support? They wouldn't. 

In the case of non-optimal PUGs ... they don't care. They will take Vindicator at 34K or whatever it is now, so the complaint that Vindicator doesn't do enough DPS to get a spot in those kinds of teams doesn't make sense.

Again, if you want to play Vindicator in a raid, you already can. Just not in optimized PUG groups.

Again, it's a ruse you are perpetrating here that you can't use Vindicator in raids because a subset of specialized groups won't take it and the only solution to that is a pinch of DPS. That just makes no sense. You simply aren't going to justify non-competitive DPS increases because Vindicator doesn't compete in teams that want top DPS in their spots. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952