Well, Steam complaints are starting to flood in...

[Naxos.2503]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

I never said any of those things, just you create a nice little strawman, again I clearly stated the additional costs that will occur in the long run, you just decided to not acknowledge that part of it. 

Everyone understands that monthly fees are monthly and increase as months progress, but I didn't know I needed to include math for dummies in my comment and expected at least a basic level of understanding from people.

 

Entry level, for you to experience the game right now today, not some arbitrary number about what the costs are 6 months from now or whatever you're trying to push.

Then that's easy. The entry level is free. 

[robertthebard.8150]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

I never said any of those things, just you create a nice little strawman, again I clearly stated the additional costs that will occur in the long run, you just decided to not acknowledge that part of it. 

Everyone understands that monthly fees are monthly and increase as months progress, but I didn't know I needed to include math for dummies in my comment and expected at least a basic level of understanding from people.

 

Entry level, for you to experience the game right now today, not some arbitrary number about what the costs are 6 months from now or whatever you're trying to push.

You could have included the actual math at all, instead of pretending it didn't exist, until someone pointed it out...

[Freya.9075]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Guess I just have to built a time machine now.

As wow players have to do in two weeks? 

[Miragen.6127]

2 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

A situation that lasts for two weeks is entirely irrelevant if we want to honestly compare the price of two games. Literally just 11 days from now WoW will again cost $65 to access the entire game for a single month.

 

Who said we are honestly comparing the price of games on a completely neutral level, rather than discussing the situation right now and the lacking discounts during the 10th anniversary and Steam release whilst it's competitors are offering a better deal now or in general.

People just as much are throwing in the whole 'LW was free once upon a time' as well as an argument,.. yeah you can nitpick all kinds of situations in which one is better than the other, but this is just about today.

[Miragen.6127]

3 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

Then that's easy. The entry level is free. 

 

Entry level for the complete experience is not free.

[Miragen.6127]

3 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

You could have included the actual math at all, instead of pretending it didn't exist, until someone pointed it out...

 

You want me to explain to you how basic multiplication works? 

[Naxos.2503]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Entry level for the complete experience is not free.

That is not the definition of Entry level.

If you're going to be obtuse with baseless arguments, I can do the same thing.

[Miragen.6127]

1 minute ago, Naxos.2503 said:

That is not the definition of Entry level.

If you're going to be obtuse with baseless arguments, I can do the same thing.

 

If you want to completely ignore the actual conversation and context and take things at face value, I don't know why you bother talking to me at all.

[Naxos.2503]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

If you want to completely ignore the actual conversation and context and take things at face value, I don't know why you bother talking to me at all.

Just literally giving everyone else a counterpoint so they dont have to read what you're writing and take your word for it. Put some work into your arguments, be decent to people who are actively trying to work against your bias and people will do the same. You came with a made up idea. No debate was ever possible. 

You raise the issue of cost. We demonstrate that the cost is cheaper than most of the market for that level of content.

You raise the issue of promotions. We explain that promotions Do happen.

Moving the goalposts gives you no credit. Failing to understand what everyone is laying in front of you doesn't either. Any basic investigation of the market factually dispel your arguments.

[Voyant.1327]

6 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

Preferences are fine, but false information is not. So long as someone claims Guild wars 2 is somehow More expensive than subscription based MMos, I'll take issue.

Even that is relative though. Upfront cost versus payment plan. Its why there are options to lease or buy cars. As whats cost effective in present term might not be indicative of whats beneficial long term. Example someone has a $20 gaming budget per month to prevent themselves from overspending. Sticking to the budget can prevent someone from overspending, or it is within their price range. A subscription model will appeal to this sort of spending. Over long term yes they will spend more but many people absolutely must rely on the budget system to combat predatory practices like you see from EA/2K's excessive microtransactions. Others do not have this concern or have no need to adopt this mindset.

Some people prefer to pay upfront to get a cheaper deal (the good ole cash upfront option) others prefer less of a financial hit over an extended period of time. (Just like Loans, Credit Cards)

 Both are good forms of managing your finances to the particulars of the individual. 

Arguing one is better or worse, you might as well be just arguing semantics or political view. Its impossible to convince. 

[robertthebard.8150]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

You want me to explain to you how basic multiplication works? 

I have already linked the data for FFXIV, which shows that you're not telling the whole truth.  "Oh, but look at this one-off thing, see, it shows that they include all the stuff for free"...  What happens when that "free" runs out?  Oh, wait, we can't talk about that, because then "free" starts to mean "Well, you have to pay for your sub, and keep it active, or you have essentially flushed that money down the toilet".  What happens here if you buy the complete package on Steam?  Oh, yeah, you don't have to spend any money to play the game.  You can disappear for a year, and if you can remember your login info, log in and play like you've never been gone.  Try that in WoW, and they're going to send you to account management to pay your sub before you can play.

Trying to compare a 30 day experience to what you get here when you buy the game is disingenuous, at best, and completely dishonest at worst.  Trying to play like the people calling you on it are dumb just moves that needle from "at best" to "at worst".

[Miragen.6127]

Just now, Naxos.2503 said:

Just literally giving everyone else a counterpoint so they dont have to read what you're writing and take your word for it. Put some work into your arguments, be decent to people who are actively trying to work against your bias and people will do the same. You came with a made up idea. No debate was ever possible. 

You raise the issue of cost. We demonstrate that the cost is cheaper than most of the market for that level of content.

You raise the issue of promotions. We explain that promotions Do happen.

Moving the goalposts gives you no credit. Failing to understand what everyone is laying in front of you doesn't either. Any basic investigation of the market factually dispel your arguments.

 

 I said COMPLETE EXPERIENCE like 3-4 times but you conveniently ignore that and just pick entry level out of it and then misconstrue the whole thing, which is what the last 3 pages are, people misrepresenting the actual post, cherry picking single words or sentences and ignoring the context.

 

I'm not moving the goal posts, people are just trying to score in goals on the other side of town and then pretend they won.

[Naxos.2503]

Just now, Voyant.1327 said:

Even that is relative though. Upfront cost versus payment plan. Its why there are options to lease or buy cars. As whats cost effective in present term might not be indicative of whats beneficial long term. Example someone has a $20 gaming budget per month to prevent themselves from overspending. Sticking to the budget can prevent someone from overspending, or it is within their price range. A subscription model will appeal to this sort of spending. Over long term yes they will spend more but many people absolutely must rely on the budget system to combat predatory practices like you see from EA/2K's excessive microtransactions. Others do not have this concern or have no need to adopt this mindset.

Some people prefer to pay upfront to get a cheaper deal (the good ole cash upfront option) others prefer less of a financial hit over an extended period of time. (Just like Loans, Credit Cards)

 Both are good forms of managing your finances to the particulars of the individual. 

Arguing one is better or worse, you might as well be just arguing semantics or political view. Its impossible to convince. 

I agree with that assessment.

Like everything, whether or not one finds the price justified depends on whether you find it is worth it based on personal interest. Someone who will spend a Lot of time ingame for extended periods of time will likely pay a suitable amount for their expectations with a subscription model, provided the game is updated regularly with fresh content. Ideally, if the subscription is paid monthly, the content added would have to be of an equal value in the long run. So long as it is, it's honest.

[Miragen.6127]

1 minute ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

I have already linked the data for FFXIV, which shows that you're not telling the whole truth.  "Oh, but look at this one-off thing, see, it shows that they include all the stuff for free"...  What happens when that "free" runs out?  Oh, wait, we can't talk about that, because then "free" starts to mean "Well, you have to pay for your sub, and keep it active, or you have essentially flushed that money down the toilet".  What happens here if you buy the complete package on Steam?  Oh, yeah, you don't have to spend any money to play the game.  You can disappear for a year, and if you can remember your login info, log in and play like you've never been gone.  Try that in WoW, and they're going to send you to account management to pay your sub before you can play.

Trying to compare a 30 day experience to what you get here when you buy the game is disingenuous, at best, and completely dishonest at worst.  Trying to play like the people calling you on it are dumb just moves that needle from "at best" to "at worst".

 

You linked the FF14 thing that exactly shows what I said it does.

Constantly changing and manipulating the actual discussion to create situations beneficial to your argument even though that is not the situation being discussed is laughable, peak whataboutism.

 

[robertthebard.8150]

1 minute ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

You linked the FF14 thing that exactly shows what I said it does.

Constantly changing and manipulating the actual discussion to create situations beneficial to your argument even though that is not the situation being discussed is laughable, peak whataboutism.

 

No, it shows the rest of the story.  The parts you would prefer were swept under the rug for others to not know about.  Some of us have been playing MMOs for a very long time, and know how to spot a snake oil salesman.

[Sunchaser.9854]

I mean, of all the times, perhaps a launch if there's a time for price wars, might be considerable? Or well, at least a 50% off path of fire for new players might be good, or a return to living worlds. There's still until the 28th right?

 

They've made it free before, maybe something good is coming. we're getting freebies. I mean. If price is a concern, tanking prices to maybe just hope to gain early steam players, maybe taking a loss on early players to gain later players and more steam awareness could be possible right(?). But not low enough to encourage hackers. 

I guess one thing is cheap accounts could spur more afk farming and login accounts. So you can't give it away completely free, but maybe things like starter achievements to earn untradable 10 slot bags, perhaps the removal of 2 bag slots to 4 for free to play players, perhaps lifting f2p restrictions if they spend at least 5-10$ in the game without any credit card fraud issues occuring, etc could help the experience.

Maybe also remove the blazing unremovable "BUY EXPANSION NOW" in red, (or make it transparent) not to make it feel like a blatant trial but go away on click after one click each login, and feel more welcome to the game. 

Making the living world pack seperately purchasable for steam players or a "Buy to complete" type package might be good. As someone mentioned, binding of issac has warnings and notice you can only buy it if you own a prior dlc for follow on dlc+. Maybe they could figure that out and offer a living season bundle, or figure a way out? Gw2 is still a game people could spend 100-300$ on bag slots, unbreakable tools, 5-15$ mount skins, chairs, gliders, outfits, world boss teleports, 10$ character slots, 10$ shared inventory slots, 5$ haircuts (Jeeze), maybe it is freemium...

but.. you can still play for life on 15$ comfy if you don't like.. Compare yourself to the person who has 300 bag spaces and spends 50$ on haircuts? (Why isn't there like a 10$ option to unlock haircuts or tmogs for life tho. ) 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Gorem.8104]

2 hours ago, alphafert.6730 said:

I keep hearing about this $100 price tag but it's $30 for hot & pof then $30 for eod. You can get the lw for gems if you don't want to spend cash. At most it's a few hrs of farming for enough gold to exchange for the lw. 

 

This is steam though. I'm convinced there is a player base that focus on the game of complaining on the forum. 

The steam page is kinda weird, at the top is free, right underneath it in Australia is "spend $140 AuD for the full game" So no, people are not seeing it as individual prices, they area seeing it as one lump sum. Which can then lead to assumptions. Are people forgetting that to market a game, you need to market it to people who know nothing about it? So many of the white knights in this thread (wow, gw2 players really are sensitive and quick to defend gw2 for no reason) seem to make the assumption that a new player that knows nothing about gw2, will know about the way gw2 expansions work and how living world works. 

Outside looking in, if you knew nothing about gw2, would everyone say the same stuff about it? no. When you look from the outside, you see you have to pay for story content. You see you need to pay for the ability to have more utility stuff that comes free in other mmo's. The free account has hardly any space to put anything as most of it is locked until you pay. Everything you see is the game trying to get you to pay. Which is a trait of mobile gaming today. 

Also, it appears people forgot that you can buy sub time in WoW with in game gold as well. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Maikimaik.1974]

9 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

 I said COMPLETE EXPERIENCE like 3-4 times but you conveniently ignore that and just pick entry level out of it and then misconstrue the whole thing, which is what the last 3 pages are, people misrepresenting the actual post, cherry picking single words or sentences and ignoring the context.

 

I'm not moving the goal posts, people are just trying to score in goals on the other side of town and then pretend they won.

But it's so weird to compare a "complete experience" that will last until the servers shut down to one that will last for just 1 month.

[Miragen.6127]

6 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

No, it shows the rest of the story.  The parts you would prefer were swept under the rug for others to not know about.  Some of us have been playing MMOs for a very long time, and know how to spot a snake oil salesman.

 

Maybe explain what those parts are instead trying to sound as if you're starring in a detective movie.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

4 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

I mean, of all the times, perhaps a launch if there's a time for price wars, might be considerable? Or well, at least a 50% off path of fire for new players might be good, or a return to living worlds. There's still until the 28th right?

 

They've made it free before, maybe something good is coming. we're getting freebies. I mean. If price is a concern, tanking prices to maybe just hope to gain early steam players, maybe taking a loss on early players to gain later players and more steam awareness could be possible right(?). But not low enough to encourage hackers. 

I guess one thing is cheap accounts could spur more afk farming and login accounts. So you can't give it away completely free, but maybe things like achievements to earn untradable 10 slot bags, perhaps the removal of 2 bags for free to play players, perhaps lifting f2p restrictions if they spend at least 5-10$ in the game without any credit card fraud issues occuring, etc. 

They absolutely needed to run their anniversary sale with the Steam launch. No reason not to. They also should have run an event where if you log in during the set period of the sale then you get all current Living World content in the game for free. The sheer amount of people buying EoD and PoF/HoT at a likely 50% discount would have offset any "loss" and making the entirety of the LW content a free unlock upon logging in not only would have been appealing to completely new players, but returning players as well.

Leave it to ANet to trip over marketing again, though. Unfortunate. It really is their weakest point in the industry, that and player retention.

[Naxos.2503]

18 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

 I said COMPLETE EXPERIENCE like 3-4 times but you conveniently ignore that and just pick entry level out of it and then misconstrue the whole thing, which is what the last 3 pages are, people misrepresenting the actual post, cherry picking single words or sentences and ignoring the context.

 

I'm not moving the goal posts, people are just trying to score in goals on the other side of town and then pretend they won.

And I'm going to stay on my ground. 

You pay 100€ for the complete experience of Guild wars 2. One time. I can complete the game whenever. It's mine.

You get a free expansion with Wow Shadowland. Except you still need to pay for the subscription, as far as I know the month isn't free, so you're still paying for it. 15€ at the moment I believe. Then you pay it again next month. Then again the following month. Then again the following month. Till you reach the 7th month and then you exceed Gw2's bundle price. Sure enough, you said prices will varie. I dont understand how you basically give it a pass without understanding that Factually, this is more expensive in the long run. Can you complete the game before the 7th month ? 

Take ESO : you either buy all content, which amount to... 150€ or so currently. Or you pay ESO plus, which gives you access to all of it, so long as you're subscribed. 12€ a month. Same thing as WoW repeats.  Can you complete the game before the 8th month ?

So, fair enough, your so called "Entry level" is way cheaper. On the first month. And then the bill increases till the cost is higher than 100€.  Can you, with a straight face, that 100€ -one time- or bits of content individually priced for 2€ per episode, the equivalent of 49 ingame gold, which you can make in two good session of fractals and unlock for free, is expensive ?

Edited August 25, 2022 by Naxos.2503

[robertthebard.8150]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

Maybe explain what those parts are instead trying to sound as if you're starring in a detective movie.

I already did.  You are comparing a 30 day trial to a complete experience, trying to call it a "complete experience".  I realize that the site is partially to blame for that, but you didn't bother to include any other information, and chose instead to just gloss over the "trial" part.  What was stopping you from just linking the site along with your claims?  The information on the page?

[Miragen.6127]

3 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

But it's so weird to compare a "complete experience" that will last until the servers shut down to one that will last for just 1 month.

 

The point is to compare what is on offer right now, everyone is talking about the value you get after 10 years of playing, not the value you get from before playing, but people are more interested in misrepresenting my point and have their 'gotcha' moment for 2 seconds than actual discuss the point.

 

So we didn't actually get anywhere but people got to flex their big 200 IQ brains to showcase they understand multiplication.

[Naxos.2503]

Just now, Miragen.6127 said:

 

So we didn't actually get anywhere but people got to flex their big 200 IQ brains to showcase they understand multiplication.

People just try to show they understand value. You have a fixture with multiplication.

[Miragen.6127]

1 minute ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

I already did.  You are comparing a 30 day trial to a complete experience, trying to call it a "complete experience".  I realize that the site is partially to blame for that, but you didn't bother to include any other information, and chose instead to just gloss over the "trial" part.  What was stopping you from just linking the site along with your claims?  The information on the page?

 

Because we're not discussing the long term costs, do we really need to discuss the painfully obvious difference between subscription and buy to play model? I was trying to avoid digging up the bones dust of a beaten to dead horse in order to beat it up some more and then snort the fine powder but I guess that's what people want.