Outnumbered

[Nuchre Bumbling.9807]

There really needs to be a change to the scoring system when a server is outnumbered.

 

As I understand it the other servers do not get war score but they do get a personal score and their pip count is refreshed when they kill players.

 

There is one particular guild who anybody in Europe know well who love to just lie in wait in camps and gank anyone who tries to flip the camp. Given that the players flipping camps are either new or poorer players they find easy prey. It also appears that most the players who indulge in this are at least gold and often diamond rank. In other words they don't need anything much as they probably have all the legendary armour, trinkets and fluff WvW has to offer.

 

WvW is not PvP and I freely admit to being a poor player mainly because I am aged 70 and came to GW2 less than 2 years ago and my reflexes just can't match 20-40 year olds. I don't begrudge having to farm tickets for 22 weeks to get a full legendary set because once obtained it lasts for the rest of the game's life. It is intensely annoying that others seem to play just to make it difficult for others as spending an hour or two ganking newbs in a camp is a highly inefficient way of maxing your score.

 

Legendary is the only way I realistically can get Legendary armour apart from maybe being a highly inefficient member of a Raid group. I am able to max my tickets in a normal week but anytime we are up against this guild it's just a total misery. Don't get me wrong I understand if I am flipping a camp and I get ambushed by others from a rival server who also want to flip the same camp that is legitimate as is being ambushed on the way to a target or any chance encounters but the tactic of just waiting in a camp to ambush people is not to me at least in the spirit of the game.   

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

Won’t pile on here..

 

Frequently we get threads about no one defending camps or structures.  I just can’t continue to disincentivize defending.  
 

I think it would be hard to differentiate between someone essentially griefing and defending.

[Dawdler.8521]

There will always be gankers no matter the world or population states.

Punishing an entire side for something that its players cant help - what you suggest is effectivly removing the ability for the outnumbering team to gain pips -  is EXTREMELY bad game design.

Just a basic sanity test with the smallest of premade zergs joining an "empty" enemy border shows how stupid an idea this is. True enough, eventually they will learn and not do it. WvW dies out with a whimper because no one want to be guys with no pips.

[Gorani.7205]

If you take a look at a Borderland, I think it is fair to say that "true defending" should always be considered when dealing with camps not next to spawn. Like @Strider Pj.2193 said, we should perhaps have more defending of the camps.

A enemy player waiting in stealth to attack you at e.g. at Lake Camp can be "starved" by just not going to that camp (leaving the main entrance or running past the border, where the Harpy spawns. Those "gankers" will leave, when their participation drops. They can only stay there and kill off people (and regain 10 min participation), if players trickle in one by one and get killed. Should they move out to get a sentry (or a Vetaran) you can go in and take the camp. not to mention you can get all other easy to cap stuff not in Lake camp on the map.

Veteran players can identify defenders from "gankers" and should warn others or just team up with them at spawn and drive them out.

I don't have teenage reflexes either any more, I rely on outsmarting them.

PS: On topic of the Harpy, which is the only Veteran super close to a camp and usable for the camp campers to refresh... perhaps it should spawn at the location where it ends up travelling to on the end of the dam and not next to the camp. Wurm & Desert Harpy are far away from the spawn camps, so you actually have to leave the area and the Wargs are close to south camp, which can be attacked from two sides.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gorani.7205

[Xenesis.6389]

There's always going be gankers in pvp game modes. It's pretty much the lowest form/effort of pvp you can find, there's a handful of guilds like that in NA too, but it's part of the mode and you have to work around it. There's a dozen other ways to earn participation, I'm sure these guys are not going around holding all 24 camps to themselves, I'm also sure your side loses towers and need to reflip, look for when that happens and flip towers whenever you can. Find some friends to take stuff if you need to, I'm sure there's at least one or two others doing the same thing, and they would appreciate having numbers regardless of your skill.

 

I don't know why they took out the outnumbered pips almost a year ago when world restructuring was obviously not ready to deploy. They took out 5 to add in 2 when they could have obviously just moved 2 from outnumbered to the new pip rank/warscore tick instead, so you have 2 from that and still 3 in outnumbered. Then do another adjustment when world restructuring was done and if outnumbered was not something around much to have a bonus for. But no, anet always balances to the extreme.

/hops away in one dodge mirage.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here.  Open World PvE legendary armour seems to me the best solution here.  Much as I agree people farming newer players near camps is annoying, it does seem like a legitimate (if cheap) way of playing a PvP game mode.

[Lysico.4906]

That game mode is not for you then op.   Do pve

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

8 hours ago, Nuchre Bumbling.9807 said:

There really needs to be a change to the scoring system when a server is outnumbered.

 

As I understand it the other servers do not get war score but they do get a personal score and their pip count is refreshed when they kill players.

 

There is one particular guild who anybody in Europe know well who love to just lie in wait in camps and gank anyone who tries to flip the camp. Given that the players flipping camps are either new or poorer players they find easy prey. It also appears that most the players who indulge in this are at least gold and often diamond rank. In other words they don't need anything much as they probably have all the legendary armour, trinkets and fluff WvW has to offer.

 

WvW is not PvP and I freely admit to being a poor player mainly because I am aged 70 and came to GW2 less than 2 years ago and my reflexes just can't match 20-40 year olds. I don't begrudge having to farm tickets for 22 weeks to get a full legendary set because once obtained it lasts for the rest of the game's life. It is intensely annoying that others seem to play just to make it difficult for others as spending an hour or two ganking newbs in a camp is a highly inefficient way of maxing your score.

 

Legendary is the only way I realistically can get Legendary armour apart from maybe being a highly inefficient member of a Raid group. I am able to max my tickets in a normal week but anytime we are up against this guild it's just a total misery. Don't get me wrong I understand if I am flipping a camp and I get ambushed by others from a rival server who also want to flip the same camp that is legitimate as is being ambushed on the way to a target or any chance encounters but the tactic of just waiting in a camp to ambush people is not to me at least in the spirit of the game.   

 

 

 

They might not be waiting in ambush. They might be watching the map and protecting their land. With experience you can watch the map and notice the direction other roamers  are going much of the time.  

 

I do things like this on my own homeland. We can see someone is heading to a camp or that the camp has swords and we rush there and clean up whoever is there if we can.  

 

I’m 65, fyi, and very hard to kill most of the time.   experience is one key, and getting hints from other players is another one.

Having said all that, I do know there are some camps that people like to sit at… Mostly North Camp , maybe camps near enemy spawn but really is mostly north, and sometimes ne camp.  

Edited September 11, 2022 by Some Call Me Tim.2319

[Leger.3724]

 

7 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Won’t pile on here..

 

Frequently we get threads about no one defending camps or structures.  I just can’t continue to disincentivize defending.  
 

I think it would be hard to differentiate between someone essentially griefing and defending.

 

- New player

- Joins WvW

- tries to take a camp, 3 people show up, one of them was always there as an invisible mesmer teleporting around that you can't hit

- die

- quit WvW and never play again

I play frequently but I do wonder how many people went through roughly this scenario and never played again.

It's not fun to play against because even if you win that 1v1, your opponent runs away, heals up and returns and you can't take the camp.

WvW is something that could work despite the atrociously bad underlying mechanics of this game if some adjustments were made. sPvP won't work. It's trying to apply a balance and fairness to something broken at a design and mechanics level.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Leger.3724

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

3 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

 

 

- New player

- Joins WvW

- tries to take a camp, 3 people show up, one of them was always there as an invisible mesmer teleporting around that you can't hit

- die

- quit WvW and never play again

I play frequently but I do wonder how many people went through roughly this scenario and never played again.

It's not fun to play against because even if you win that 1v1, your opponent runs away, heals up and returns and you can't take the camp.

WvW is something that could work despite the atrociously bad underlying mechanics of this game if some adjustments were made. sPvP won't work. It's trying to apply a balance and fairness to something broken at a design and mechanics level.

 

Seriously this is not a common thing.  Plus, if you have a power beast like my soulbeast ranger you can take a camp down often before the swords appear.   Get experience, get help  on builds, nukem.  Most of all, if you’re new then simply get help understanding the nuances of wvw ect.    It’s not at terrible as all that… or maybe I’m just too xp to realize it is?

[Strider Pj.2193]

4 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

 

 

- New player

- Joins WvW

- tries to take a camp, 3 people show up, one of them was always there as an invisible mesmer teleporting around that you can't hit

- die

- quit WvW and never play again

I play frequently but I do wonder how many people went through roughly this scenario and never played again.

It's not fun to play against because even if you win that 1v1, your opponent runs away, heals up and returns and you can't take the camp.

WvW is something that could work despite the atrociously bad underlying mechanics of this game if some adjustments were made. sPvP won't work. It's trying to apply a balance and fairness to something broken at a design and mechanics level.

Ok.  
 

Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a (albeit minimally) competitive mode against human opponents.

 

A rotation won’t help you.

 

That, to me is why I dislike PvE.  You memorize a rotation and kill stuff.  Nothing really changes. Encounters are the same.  Every. Time.

 

Wvw isn’t.  The maps are the same, the objectives don’t change.  But the encounters do.  If THAT is going to chase you out of WvW, then so be it.  It isn’t for everyone.

 

People that come into this forum and ask how to get started, or ask in map chat and actually listen, get good advice as to what to actually do.  If you are just going to wander into a border land and get spooked by getting killed at a camp, then WvW isn’t for you.  

[Leger.3724]

24 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Ok.  
 

Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a (albeit minimally) competitive mode against human opponents.

 

A rotation won’t help you.

 

That, to me is why I dislike PvE.  You memorize a rotation and kill stuff.  Nothing really changes. Encounters are the same.  Every. Time.

 

Wvw isn’t.  The maps are the same, the objectives don’t change.  But the encounters do.  If THAT is going to chase you out of WvW, then so be it.  It isn’t for everyone.

 

People that come into this forum and ask how to get started, or ask in map chat and actually listen, get good advice as to what to actually do.  If you are just going to wander into a border land and get spooked by getting killed at a camp, then WvW isn’t for you.  

 

Yes but the game needs players. And outside of primetime in NA lets say 8pm-10pm EST, very few servers have large populations. It's a challenge to find a group to roll with.

 

I've been with players who had good experiences in recent weeks. They came on during primetime and came across a big group of us taking a tower and they had a ton of fun joining our medium sized blob attacking another medium sized blob and taking the tower.

 

But more than likely these new players will try WvW outside of primetime and they'll experience the people camping spawn camps on the borderlands. And leaving spawn will likely lead to them dying. 

 

I think stuff like abilities has compounded the problem. Some Diamond raider on their mount can knock the beginner off their brand new mount and destroy them before they can do anything. Edit: And I do think the mount requiring a collection and ability point spend to earn it is a problem in and of itself. Even if it's not a high barrier, it probably sucks for someone brand new to WvW.

 

PVE, WVW, PVP - they're all going to slowly bleed players over time and they do need influxes to sustain themselves. PVE is pretty straightforward and easy given the nature of GW2 and the hearts/events system. WVW is more difficult and I think some tweaks and decisions could be made to make it easier. PVP there's no hope. MOBAs are simply better and already have the established playerbase. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Leger.3724

[Strider Pj.2193]

24 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

 

Yes but the game needs players. And outside of primetime in NA lets say 8pm-10pm EST, very few servers have large populations. It's a challenge to find a group to roll with.

 

I've been with players who had good experiences in recent weeks. They came on during primetime and came across a big group of us taking a tower and they had a ton of fun joining our medium sized blob attacking another medium sized blob and taking the tower.

 

But more than likely these new players will try WvW outside of primetime and they'll experience the people camping spawn camps on the borderlands. And leaving spawn will likely lead to them dying. 

 

I think stuff like abilities has compounded the problem. Some Diamond raider on their mount can knock the beginner off their brand new mount and destroy them before they can do anything. Edit: And I do think the mount requiring a collection and ability point spend to earn it is a problem in and of itself. Even if it's not a high barrier, it probably sucks for someone brand new to WvW.

 

PVE, WVW, PVP - they're all going to slowly bleed players over time and they do need influxes to sustain themselves. PVE is pretty straightforward and easy given the nature of GW2 and the hearts/events system. WVW is more difficult and I think some tweaks and decisions could be made to make it easier. PVP there's no hope. MOBAs are simply better and already have the established playerbase. 

There is a reason WvW was one of the original three endgames.  And yes, some aspects have suffered.  I can’t nor won’t argue that.

 

But it is the healthiest of the three considering it’s gotten the least attention.  

[Zepoolpe.9217]

Lol what? Defending a camp is ganking now?
Since when a so-called "spawn camp" should be left undefended for the attackers to flip?

That camp might be defended because they are trying for the keep near it to reach T3, or to get its supplies topped up again, or that there is nothing much to do at the time so they just stay there because something might happen, or maybe just because defending a structure is a part of the game.

And anyway all that does not change the fact that anyone going on a WvW BL is entering an open-world PvP area and that (s)he is fair game to anyone from the other teams. And it will happen that it's a lone player attack him/her or a group or that you are a newbie or a an experienced player. Is it pleasant? No. Is it part of the game? Yes. The only difference is that by the sound of it, the OP does not have the experience to fight in these conditions, whereas his attackers have.

Complaining about it is like complaining that someone will kill you when you are "just doing my dailies why can't you leave me alone you bad bad person" (yes, I've received these /w 😄 ).

This is PvP (yes, OP, WvW IS PvP, just not the sPvP brand), and if you enter it without the proper build, the proper gear or enough experience, it will be painful (and even if you have a lot of experience about fighting in a zerg and you end up in a small scale fight it will be painful), but you can get the proper build easily, you can get the proper gear easily (even exotic gear is OK to start) and you'll get experience by... well getting your kitten kicked. There are no fixed rotations: this is about knowing your class and knowing your opponent class, what you can do and what you cannot do, when to attack and when to kite, when to burst and when to build up resources. Being 70yo is not the deciding factor: i sometime play with a 70ish yo player and he whoop a lot of people's kitten.

Also, as a reminder:

• A spawn has 2 exits that leads to a camp, and south camp is usually left undefended.
• If camps on 1 BL are defended, change BL (Desert BL is usually easier if you are looking to flip camps)
• If you are looking to flip camps with minimum of pain, flip back camps on your home BL.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Zepoolpe.9217

[Bear.9568]

Transfer to "said" server that is giving you issues and join the fun. Now you can hang out with those gold/diamond rank players and farm all the casual noobs on outnumbered servers.

[Svarty.8019]

On 9/11/2022 at 1:59 PM, Nuchre Bumbling.9807 said:

There really needs to be a change to the scoring system when a server is outnumbered.

 

As I understand it the other servers do not get war score but they do get a personal score and their pip count is refreshed when they kill players.

 

There is one particular guild who anybody in Europe know well who love to just lie in wait in camps and gank anyone who tries to flip the camp. Given that the players flipping camps are either new or poorer players they find easy prey. It also appears that most the players who indulge in this are at least gold and often diamond rank. In other words they don't need anything much as they probably have all the legendary armour, trinkets and fluff WvW has to offer.

 

WvW is not PvP and I freely admit to being a poor player mainly because I am aged 70 and came to GW2 less than 2 years ago and my reflexes just can't match 20-40 year olds. I don't begrudge having to farm tickets for 22 weeks to get a full legendary set because once obtained it lasts for the rest of the game's life. It is intensely annoying that others seem to play just to make it difficult for others as spending an hour or two ganking newbs in a camp is a highly inefficient way of maxing your score.

 

Legendary is the only way I realistically can get Legendary armour apart from maybe being a highly inefficient member of a Raid group. I am able to max my tickets in a normal week but anytime we are up against this guild it's just a total misery. Don't get me wrong I understand if I am flipping a camp and I get ambushed by others from a rival server who also want to flip the same camp that is legitimate as is being ambushed on the way to a target or any chance encounters but the tactic of just waiting in a camp to ambush people is not to me at least in the spirit of the game.   

 

 

Changing the Outnumbered buff into something useful has been suggested many times, and with good intention. The counter argument is something to do with abusing the system.

 

Sadly it seems that in Guild Wars 2, as with all the evils of the world today, Nothing Will Be Done.