Pure OW PvE idea for legendary armor

[Mahiwaga.1827]

On 9/13/2022 at 1:46 PM, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I like the idea of this as an easy way to time gate, and also encourage people to play different bosses.  Though I'd much prefer some actually interesting achievements like the Return To series.

 

Having something similar to this, with maybe slightly lowered requirements, but more engaged follow ups, as outlined by the post above.

 

The one thing I'd definitely want on this is that the tokens drop from ANY world boss.  The main issue I have with the raid tokens is that they require so much scheduling effort.  Even if you have a group/know mechanics, you still need to be on at the same time as nine other people, and want to do the same thing they do at the same time.  Being able to log in and immediately make progress towards legendary armour (as is the case in WvW, and should be the case in PvP if the queues were shorter) is the thing that is really missing from PvE.  If you have a schedule that only allows you to play at specific/unpredictable times, or in short bursts, you're kind of locked out of this content or forced to farm WvW.

 

Always reading stuff here in the forums but never bothered to login and reply. This comment of yours made me wanna do it - and I just wanted to say that this is exactly what I feel. For a casual like me, it seems like the only option for me to get legendary armors is either via PvP or WvW.

I hope there is a PvE version of this like the OP suggested. A PvE way to earn legendaries where I can just login anytime, play a short burst or long hours, no need to wait for others.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

The differences between WvW and PvP are bigger than the differences between open world and raid. You use different gear and build in WvW and PvP.
WvW and PvP are independent game modes, just like PvE. Open world is not. 
Even Anet seems to see it that way, they balance WvW, PvP and PvE. 
And what is so wildly different in Open and raids? The only difference is that raids are instanced. 

"You use different gear and build in WvW and PvP."  - This is also true in Open World and Raids.  The builds needed are different between a group comp and single player exploration. 

 

"WvW and PvP are independent game modes, just like PvE. Open world is not."

I'm not sure how you're defining "independent", so not sure how to respond here.

 

"Even Anet seems to see it that way, they balance WvW, PvP and PvE."

They do.  But they could easily do this for raids as well (to an extent they already do, hence e.g. Jade Bot revives don't work in instant content).

 

"And what is so wildly different in Open and raids? The only difference is that raids are instanced. "

The primary focus of the gameplay.  The rewards.  The fact you need 10 people.  Some skills (e.g. Jade Bot).  The difficulty level.  The location...

 

If you'd like to argue that doing a raid and completing Queensdale are basically the same, then by all means make that case.  That would also strengthen the argument that Open World PvE armour makes sense, because it completely negates the exclusivity argument 🙂 

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

You use different gear and build in WvW and PvP."  - This is also true in Open World and Raids.  The builds needed are different between a group comp and single player exploration. 

Maybe you have never played PvP, but in PvP you have entirely different gear than in WvW. You could clear a raid with an open world build. 

[Silent.6137]

20 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Then you clearly don't know the difference between an exploit and a cheat.

Abusing a fault within the game's participation check so they can be rewarded without playing as developer intended makes it an exploit. You can find tons of exploits in GW2 and in fact, many MMOs available on Google, none require 3rd party programs.

The obvious is still there, AFK players are getting rewards from WvW by not playing WvW, but that doesn't make a legitimate reason to call WvW easy.

You're choosing words with the worse connotations in computerlese. Saying someone is using an exploits is the same as saying they're cheating the system. The participation was designed to reward players who takes the time to do the menial work of defending. It was intended. Players afk-ing doesn't make them a cheat. The game allow them to do so.

[Vilin.8056]

19 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

You're choosing words with the worse connotations in computerlese. Saying someone is using an exploits is the same as saying they're cheating the system. The participation was designed to reward players who takes the time to do the menial work of defending. It was intended. Players afk-ing doesn't make them a cheat. The game allow them to do so.

And you're choosing words without reading its definition:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/exploit

Exploit

(in a video game) the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

39 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Maybe you have never played PvP, but in PvP you have entirely different gear than in WvW. You could clear a raid with an open world build. 

Oh, you were talking about that (the thing that is completely irrelevant to gameplay and could be implemented in any other mode).  Yes, WvW have to acquire their gear, PvP don't.  The builds are what actually matter to whether the mode is different.  No one when describing WvW as (in the context of it being a game mode) would bring up the fact you need to gear your character.

[disco.9302]

5 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh, you were talking about that (the thing that is completely irrelevant to gameplay and could be implemented in any other mode).  Yes, WvW have to acquire their gear, PvP don't.  The builds are what actually matter to whether the mode is different.  No one when describing WvW as (in the context of it being a game mode) would bring up the fact you need to gear your character.

are you missing the point on purpose?

gear =/= build

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

are you missing the point on purpose?

gear =/= build

Are you?  It is completely normal to use "build" to refer to both the gear and traits/skills.

 

The fact that gear acquisition is different in PvP and WvW (and PvE) is irrelevant to the core gameplay of the mode.  If you were giving an explanation of the game moes, you wouldn't describe WvW as "a mode where you need to gear up".  You might in PvE, as the levelling and gearing process is integral to the mode itself, but with WvW it just wouldn't come up.

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Are you?  It is completely normal to use "build" to refer to both the gear and traits/skills.

 

The fact that gear acquisition is different in PvP and WvW (and PvE) is irrelevant to the core gameplay of the mode.  If you were giving an explanation of the game moes, you wouldn't describe WvW as "a mode where you need to gear up".  You might in PvE, as the levelling and gearing process is integral to the mode itself, but with WvW it just wouldn't come up.

It was not meant to describe WvW.  It was meant to show that WvW and PvP are different game modes, among many other things you use different gear. 
But who cares about facts when you want to push your agenda, right? 

Edited September 14, 2022 by yoni.7015

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

It was not meant to describe WvW.  It was meant to show that WvW and PvP are different game modes, among many other things you use different gear. 
But who cares about facts when you want to push your agenda, right? 

Okay.  Raids begin with an "R" and "Open World" begins with an "O".

 

Shall we continue to list random irrelevancies or shall we focus on actually important differences?  Because the main argument people use to says Raids and Open World are the same is that they're both PvE.  Given WvW and sPvP are both PvP, this is obviously a bad argument. 

[Vilin.8056]

14 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh, you were talking about that (the thing that is completely irrelevant to gameplay and could be implemented in any other mode).  Yes, WvW have to acquire their gear, PvP don't.  The builds are what actually matter to whether the mode is different.  No one when describing WvW as (in the context of it being a game mode) would bring up the fact you need to gear your character.

Only in an assumption that the majority of PvP players don't play the open world, story, and WvW, which is entirely false.

In fact, like all competitive modes, a PvP player's build set ups that they could bring to other modes are constantly under under threat by ongoing and upcoming balance patches and there was a demand that they could have a solution without farming extensively in PvE.

On the other hand, players who exclusively restrict themselves to OW are not.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay.  Raids begin with an "R" and "Open World" begins with an "O".

 

Shall we continue to list random irrelevancies or shall we focus on actually important differences?  Because the main argument people use to says Raids and Open World are the same is that they're both PvE.  Given WvW and sPvP are both PvP, this is obviously a bad argument. 

using completely different gear is not an irrelevancy. 

and WvW and PvP are both just PvP? This is not even true. There are important differences between the two game modes. WvW is a mix between PvP and PvE, it has PvE elements. 
 

Meanwhile the differences between open world and raids are not that great. There are more differences between fractals and open world/raids. AR for example. 
So maybe instead of open world, fractals should have their own legendary armor set. 

[disco.9302]

10 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Are you?  It is completely normal to use "build" to refer to both the gear and traits/skills.

 

The fact that gear acquisition is different in PvP and WvW (and PvE) is irrelevant to the core gameplay of the mode.  If you were giving an explanation of the game moes, you wouldn't describe WvW as "a mode where you need to gear up".  You might in PvE, as the levelling and gearing process is integral to the mode itself, but with WvW it just wouldn't come up.

you've clearly not played wvw and pvp if you think the exact same builds are used there.

gearing is not the main difference and nobody is saying that it is. 

Builds, tactics, general gameplay is completely different in pvp and wvw. You're failing to recognise this entirely and basing your argument on "fighting other players is identical in both modes" which is factually untrue.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Oh my word.  How can three people consecutively misunderstand an argument this fundamentally.

 

"Raids and Open World are the same, because they're both Pve."  <=== Bad argument

"WvW and sPvP are the same, because they're both PvP" <=== Bad argument used analogously to demonstrate why the above argument doesn't work

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

5 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

Builds, tactics, general gameplay is completely different in pvp and wvw.

Okay, at least in misunderstanding my argument, you managed to make my own for me.  Yes, builds, tactics and general gameplay are completely different in PvP and WvW.  Just as builds, tactics and general gameplay are completely different in Raids and Open World.

Edited September 14, 2022 by CrashTestAuto.9108

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh my word.  How can three people consecutively misunderstand an argument this fundamentally.

 

"Raids and Open World are the same, because they're both Pve."  <=== Bad argument

"WvW and sPvP are the same, because they're both PvP" <=== Bad argument used analogously to demonstrate why the above argument doesn't work

And here is your mistake. Open world and raids are both PvE but WvW and PvP are not both PvP. 

[disco.9302]

1 minute ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh my word.  How can three people consecutively misunderstand an argument this fundamentally.

 

"Raids and Open World are the same, because they're both Pve."  <=== Bad argument

"WvW and sPvP are the same, because they're both PvP" <=== Bad argument used analogously to demonstrate why the above argument doesn't work

because your argument is flawed.

 

I can take my raid build and gear, not change a single thing and then just do openworld content the same way I can do instanced content. 

pvp and wvw have different  builds, gear and way of playing the content entirely. I cannot use the same build and gear in both or play the same way if I want to be successful.

how are  you  not able to understand these two points?

[Vilin.8056]

18 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay.  Raids begin with an "R" and "Open World" begins with an "O".

10 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

"Raids and Open World are the same, because they're both Pve."  <=== Bad argument

Eh, nice argument I guess?

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

7 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

because your argument is flawed.

 

I can take my raid build and gear, not change a single thing and then just do openworld content the same way I can do instanced content. 

pvp and wvw have different  builds, gear and way of playing the content entirely. I cannot use the same build and gear in both or play the same way if I want to be successful.

how are  you  not able to understand these two points?

Oh very easily.  It's because you added the words "If I want to be successful" to the end of only one sentence in order to make your argument work.

 

You can absolutely play sPvP builds in WvW, and vice versa.  They just won't be optimal.  By the same note, try taking a pure support raid spec into Open World.  It'll probably (maybe) work in most places, but it won't be optimal.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

10 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

but WvW and PvP are not both PvP. 

Okay at this point I think I'll stop taking bait and just return to the topic.  I agree with the OP that metas might be too long in single play to be the sole way to earn tokens.

[The Boz.2038]

25 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh my word.  How can three people consecutively misunderstand an argument this fundamentally.

 

"Raids and Open World are the same, because they're both Pve."  <=== Bad argument

"WvW and sPvP are the same, because they're both PvP" <=== Bad argument used analogously to demonstrate why the above argument doesn't work

Nobody said OW and Raid is the same. This is entirely your fabrication.
Both are PvE, though.

PvP and WvW are not the same. And they are not both "PvP".

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

42 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

because your argument is flawed.

 

I can take my raid build and gear, not change a single thing and then just do openworld content the same way I can do instanced content. 

pvp and wvw have different  builds, gear and way of playing the content entirely. I cannot use the same build and gear in both or play the same way if I want to be successful.

how are  you  not able to understand these two points?

I can play naked pvp and wvw without touching any build or equipment and still can get my legendary armor.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

And you're choosing words without reading its definition:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/exploit

Exploit

(in a video game) the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.

I know exactly the definition. You are trying to jam a very broad definition into something that's not.Please explain how an intentional design is a bug or a flaw? The only flaw is the unintended consequence. It is not a flaw in design because the rewards were distributed as intended. But rather a flaw in concept.

The only advantage here is the player can watch Netflix. There is zero other advantages that will skew the game in any way. The player still has to be online the same amount of time regardless of whether that person is active or not. The player do not gain any loots while inactive other than what will be given. And how does it disadvantage you?

[yoni.7015]

1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

 I agree with the OP that metas might be too long in single play to be the sole way to earn tokens.

Of course, now meta events are too long. Maybe champions are too hard? Let’s just give these tokens for killing veterans. 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

24 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Of course, now meta events are too long. Maybe champions are too hard? Let’s just give these tokens for killing veterans. 

Why do you keep reading complaints about scheduling issues and responding as if someone complained about difficulty?

 

The OP said that they chose bosses over metas because they can only play 30 mins per day (which, given the fact you need to do this hundreds of times in the current design is a pretty massive barrier.  This is the exact same problem I've raised with raids, the scheduling just isn't feasible for a lot of people.

 

I know there's an attachment to the idea that everyone who wants Open World legendary armour just doesn't want to do difficult content, but that's just objectively false (and disproven by the fact the both PvP and WvW are easy paths).  Maybe start responding to the actual things people are saying if you insist on joining in a discussion that has no impact on you whatsoever?