Was void always a thing or something they just completely made up?

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

But saying, "I spend a lot of time looking for the consistency and found it" doesn't necessarily mean it's there. It might be. Or it might be in the eye of the beholder.

And I'm saying "nah fam, it's there". But you're convinced unless I fence sit I'm coping, so continue on with that I guess. Not like some people predicted the exact plot of  the elder dragon arc's conclusion before EoD came out simply from properly interpreting the world building up through IBS (and not by "looking hard enough", just by looking at all).

The irony is, I kinda wish Anet would throw in some big inconsistencies now so I could actually be surprised by any of the directions they take the big-picture lore in going forward. Because if they continue doing the excellent job they have been drawing on old lore and refurbishing it for the modern game, I'm almost always going to know what's up.

[Gibson.4036]

12 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

But you're convinced unless I fence sit I'm coping, so continue on with that I guess.

Yeah, you're not really hearing what I'm trying to say. But that's all right. I'm glad you really like the story and by all means think you should keep praising what you like about it. All the best.

[mandala.8507]

6 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Yeah, you're not really hearing what I'm trying to say.

But I am.

You're saying that there is precedent both for people wanting things to not make sense and therefore convincing themselves there are more inconsistencies than there actually are and for people wanting things to make sense and thus seeing evidence for connections where there are none.

Which is a lovely sentiment.

But when you are using that sentiment to insinuate that people might be finding consistency where there is none when they are telling you "I found a pattern in the lore. I predict this thing will happen because of what I now know about the consistency of the lore" and then those things do happen, you can no longer apply that lovely sentiment to the people who have now demonstrated that there was in fact consistency present.

That's why you are making a false equivalence. People finding real themes and narrative threads in the lore aren't comparable to people telling everyone things don't make sense just because they feel it to be so. The central position is not tenable when one side is clearly incorrect.

To describe your position with a metaphor: you're King Solomon splitting the baby even after he had plenty of evidence pointing to who the true mother was.

A balanced take for balance's sake only.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Maybe I'm just being confused by the reuse of Void graphical assets and demons like the Aatxe in Gyala Delve, but...

It has never been explained to my knowledge exactly what the Shadow Behemoth, Aatxe and other such shadowy demon creatures actually are, where they're from et al.  We meet them very early in the game in Queensdale and Kessex Hills, and have never seen again that I can recall until Gyala. At least visually, they seem to have some kinship to the Corrupted Void.

It IS clear that the Void is different and distinct from the Shadow Army creatures we fight in Dragonfall. They are servants of Menzies from Torment, and we haven't seen them in Gyala. No connection there.

Shadow Behemoth and Aatxe are from the underworld, they are mist-based demons who breached into Tyria by various weakpoints of the mists.

 

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

You clearly have a bias here, in the way you write about people. Those who praise are "taking the time to understand the connections" while people who criticise are "silly and like they don't know what they're talking about." You leave no room for people who actually do care for the lore and have looked into it but found some of it thin. Nor people who are eager to find connections, and may be seeing things that aren't there.

But saying, "I spend a lot of time looking for the consistency and found it" doesn't necessarily mean it's there. It might be. Or it might be in the eye of the beholder.

 

It's often a mix of both from my perspective. I've seen people who criticize a story episode without taking into account previous events that could be related and explain X.

Like "Why is Braham so nasty?" "Because he blames the commander waiting for Eir's death, as the commander wanted to wait in heart of thorns and by the time we reached her, she was too weak to survive the wounds/event."

But some people just go with the first line. "Why is he nasty to us, it makes no sense."

 

however, that doesn't excuse bias in either direction, this is very true. But frankly I think it's more fun to look at stuff and try to find answers then to sit down and go "Nope, this sucks" as some people do. You need to look a little, but not make unrelated leaps.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:20 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Shadow Behemoth and Aatxe are from the underworld, they are mist-based demons who breached into Tyria by various weakpoints of the mists.

Minor clarification: They are Nightmares, which are souls tormented and twisted by negative emotions into bestial creatures. Like Margonites, they're demonic, but not technically demons (not by the traditional GW definition of "malicious entities formed by the Mists" - like Deimos or the GW1 Torment demons).

You can even see this process in action during Hall of Chains, in Dhuum's room.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[AlPower.2476]

Void? Amon? is this a mf StarCraft 2 Reference? 🤘

[Gibson.4036]

Fun experiment: try telling someone who has never played GW2 the overarching story from Zhaitan to Soo Won.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Fun experiment: try telling someone who has never played GW2 the overarching story from Zhaitan to Soo Won.

Darkness descends upon Tyria.

The human nation of Kryta's last vestiges have fled to their final stronghold of Divinity's Reach, where a young Queen faces threats from all sides. Centaur invasions, ministry coups, and general chaos and unrest.

The Norn, typically solitary warriors seeking greater glory and to grow their legends, have retreated from their homelands in the Far Shiverpeaks to take refuge in Hoelbrak. Yet despite their efforts to unify and push back, the elder ice dragon's influence seeps into their society and threatens to hasten their icy end.

The Charr, now a well-oiled machine of war, remain plagued by the past. Ghosts from Adelbern's final curse upon the once great kingdom of Ascalon continue to thwart their efforts to finally reclaim their ancient homelands. And while relative peace with the remnants of humanity has been established, dissidence and the lingering calamitous will of the Flame Legion jeopardizes all they've fought to achieve.

The Asura, chased to the surface by the elder dragon of fire, take solace in their magitechnologically advanced civilization. However, they have become blighted from within by corruption. Disorder reigns and sound science and intrigue are under siege.

And the nascent race of tree children, the Sylvari, have identified Nightmare's influence taking root across Tyria. Their people hold onto hope as darkness closes in around them. They dream of a mighty dragon's shadow that must be slain and seek to rally all living things against the embodiment of death itself, the elder dragon Zhaitan.

But from these five races in turmoil rises a noble hero, quickly ascending the ranks of one of Tyria's three great orders:

The Vigil, a guild comprised of warriors whose spears point toward the growing elder dragon threat. Led by Almorra Soulkeeper, a Charr gladium whose entire warband was corrupted by the crystal dragon Kralkatorrik, they believe that some must fight so that, one day, all may be free from the elder dragon threat.

The Priory, an organization of scholars striving to weaponize wisdom against all future threats to Tyria.

Or The Order of Whispers, an enterprise of secret agents striking out from the shadows to prevent ruin and send the dragons back to hell.

[Okay, I got bored...but there's the opener. Best thing to do is just play the game without letting people infect you with the idea that it won't make sense. Once you start thinking that, it's over. You'll always be 10 steps behind people who give the story a fair shot.]

[Gibson.4036]

17 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Darkness descends upon Tyria.

The human nation of Kryta's last vestiges have fled to their final stronghold of Divinity's Reach, where a young Queen faces threats from all sides. Centaur invasions, ministry coups, and general chaos and unrest.

The Norn, typically solitary warriors seeking greater glory and to grow their legends, have retreated from their homelands in the Far Shiverpeaks to take refuge in Hoelbrak. Yet despite their efforts to unify and push back, the elder ice dragon's influence seeps into their society and threatens to hasten their icy end.

The Charr, now a well-oiled machine of war, remain plagued by the past. Ghosts from Adelbern's final curse upon the once great kingdom of Ascalon continue to thwart their efforts to finally reclaim their ancient homelands. And while relative peace with the remnants of humanity has been established, dissidence and the lingering calamitous will of the Flame Legion jeopardizes all they've fought to achieve.

The Asura, chased to the surface by the elder dragon of fire, take solace in their magitechnologically advanced civilization. However, they have become blighted from within by corruption. Disorder reigns and sound science and intrigue are under siege.

And the nascent race of tree children, the Sylvari, have identified Nightmare's influence taking root across Tyria. Their people hold onto hope as darkness closes in around them. They dream of a mighty dragon's shadow that must be slain and seek to rally all living things against the embodiment of death itself, the elder dragon Zhaitan.

But from these five races in turmoil rises a noble hero, quickly ascending the ranks of one of Tyria's three great orders:

The Vigil, a guild comprised of warriors whose spears point toward the growing elder dragon threat. Led by Almorra Soulkeeper, a Charr gladium whose entire warband was corrupted by the crystal dragon Kralkatorrik, they believe that some must fight so that, one day, all may be free from the elder dragon threat.

The Priory, an organization of scholars striving to weaponize wisdom against all future threats to Tyria.

Or The Order of Whispers, an enterprise of secret agents striking out from the shadows to prevent ruin and send the dragons back to hell.

[Okay, I got bored...but there's the opener. Best thing to do is just play the game without letting people infect you with the idea that it won't make sense. Once you start thinking that, it's over. You'll always be 10 steps behind people who give the story a fair shot.]

While I agree with your point about our expectations framing what we see, your beginning summary was on the forums, where most of us are familiar with it.

My proposed experiment was to tell someone who hasn't played. It was interesting trying to explain to my wife the arc of "Zhaitain eats magical artifacts via undead monsters with stomach-mouths" to "Aurene now filters the magic Soo Won made her children to help deal with".

Edited April 5, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

My proposed experiment was to tell someone who hasn't played. It was interesting trying to explain the arc of "Zhaitain eats magical artifacts via undead monsters with stomach-mouths" to "Aurene now filters the magic Soo Won made her children to help deal with".

I'm not sure what you mean by saying this would be interesting. Are you saying it would be difficult? Are you saying they would have no chance of understanding? Because I don't think it would be that hard, if that's what you mean by interesting. I don't think it's that complicated in hindsight.

The issue with people understanding this trajectory is that the game is written around the "good guys" not knowing the why or how of most things going on in the world. One consistent aspect of the gw2 narrative is that the "bad guys" always know more than we do. Every villain has been more aware of the bigger picture than us; be it Zhaitan, Scarlet, Caithe as a pseudo-antagonist in season 2, Mordremoth, Balthazar, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Ankka and Soo-Won (you get the idea).

The baddies are always in the know and the heroes are just bumbling around in the dark trying to do the best they can with their limited information. Living long enough to know the way of things is literally living long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Gw2 is almost Holmesian in how it presents most story beats as an on-going mystery, but there's very seldom a moment in any of the stories where we ask what went down and a trusted characters responds by explaining to dear Watson (us) what really happened, why, and how.

And when they do do that, people don't like it because it's (usually) Taimi doing it, and still her explanations are limited by her knowledge as a character in-universe and her less-than-scholarly delivery of crucial world-building. Hilariously, villains have been the ones giving us the quality insights through most of the story. Good-guy knowers are incredibly cryptic or just on the cusp of understanding something fully before they're whisked off-stage forever.

And this is higher-level storytelling and worldbuilding, mind you; it's not a bad thing. I personally loathe when writers rub the reader's nose in the point. Happens in film a lot with narrators. Show me, don't tell me.

But of course, when we show and not tell, we risk people getting confused or missing the point entirely — especially in a game utilizing every avenue at its disposal to flesh out story that's written like a murder mystery. It's easy to miss things if you don't play the game holistically.

[Gibson.4036]

When you explain something to someone who has no prior knowledge,  you find out a lot of things about your own understanding. They also ask questions that you, in your familiarity, wouldn’t necessarily think to ask.

Thats what I meant.