Was void always a thing or something they just completely made up?

[bullsxtwo.1027]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I think the issue is that both are presented as being "the unfiltered combination of all magical energies" in their own separate explanations, and the story never really explains the difference between them. You saying 'one is filtered and the other isn't' is really just your interpretation. To quote Season 3:

Taimi: Anyway, I discovered why ley energy is different when run through him, and it's paradigm-shifting!

Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?

Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a "domain" when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan's was death, obviously.

Taimi: Well you know what's guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!

Taimi: Spencer filters "death" out of ley energy!

<Character name>: So magic is almost like light? Broken up into a spectrum?

Taimi: That's a perfect way to think about it!

Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi's_Game
This gives the indication that, since 'Spencer' is filtering magic from ley-lines, that ley-lines are unfiltered. Then we get Void:

Soo-Won: Returned to the web of ley lines, and then to me. You did what you had to do, but I can't filter the magic alone.

Soo-Won: Even when my children were alive, we couldn't filter it together. As each of them fell, the magic grew more corrupted.

Soo-Won: Now, it's become something else. Something...disagreeable to mortal life.

Soo-Won: I've shielded my flock from it for a long time. But I cannot abate the flow of magic for much longer.

Soo-Won: When I'm gone, all of Tyria will be destroyed. All life...extinguished.

<Character name>: There has to be a way to stop it.

Soo-Won: Aurene. The scion. She can filter all of the world's magic. But she must be ready.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deepest_Secrets
And that perception... is the same as ley-lines. The idea that Void is unfiltered, unseparated magic. Then we get Haze:

Gorrik: Much appreciated! Your readings suggest this haze is composed primarily of raw magic. Very similar to Void. However...

Gorrik: The samples contained an extra element not found in unfiltered magic. I'll run further analysis. In the meantime...

Gorrik: Let's all regroup in the lower mines. Oh, and if you see any jade on your way, could you test it for a haze reaction?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/An_Air_of_Mystery
And again, that perception... is the same thing. Except Haze is the same thing "but with something added".

So in other words, it's seems like everything is basically unfiltered magic. And not once do we get told what the actual difference between ley-line and Void is. The closest we get is during Dragon's End meta:

When an enemy is killed and drops Purified Void Magic

Aurene: That creature just dropped some magical energy! Collect it! We can use it to power my crystal!

When collecting Purified Void Magic

One of the following:

Aurene: Excellent! I can feel the crystal's power growing!

Aurene: Yes! Keep gathering that magical energy!

When collecting Corrupted Void Magic

One of the following:

Aurene: Avoid the corrupted magic! It's dangerous.

Aurene: Careful! Some of that magic is too corrupted to use!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quell_the_Branded_Void_corruption_(Preparations) (and the other similar events)

The issue is, all that tells us is that there's "Purified Void Magic" and "Corrupted Void Magic" and... that means ley-lines are void, but "purified" while the black stuff is "corrupted". Which completely clashes with the idea that Void is pure, raw, unfiltered magic as corruption indicates it was twisted, warped, and changed - which isn't pure and raw.

The Void is raw magic—chaos incarnate. In the beginning, everything was Void. Then the Mother Dragon, Soo-Won, brought order, splitting the Void into six domains of magic. [...] The force that emerged from the broken dragon-cycle. Which, if not stopped, will unwind reality one thread at a time. — Kuunavang in Fallout


The Void is raw, primal form of magic which is made up of all the six primary domains of magic—Crystal, Death, Fire, Ice, Plant, and Water—of the world of Tyria.[1] According to Kuunavang, it is chaos incarnate.[2] However, after studying it Joon, Gorrik, and Taimi come to the conclusion that it instead breaks down the rules of reality Tyrians know and so only appears to be chaotic in nature.[1] It is the source of everything on the world of Tyria and aims to return Tyria and its inhabitants to the primordial state in the Mists to be rearranged.[3]
After the first Elder Dragon Soo-Won split it into six domains of magic to regulate the All and preserve the existence of the world of Tyria, the Void has slowly been corrupting her and the other Elder Dragons and inflicting them with torment while also being corrupted itself with each Elder Dragon's demise. Due to the influence from its Elder Dragon hosts, the Void has gradually been evolving into a coalesced, malicious consciousness known as the Dragonvoid which actively seeks to unwind reality and end all life on Tyria.[4] As a result of this influence, many of the Void creatures manifest as shadowy versions of Elder Dragon minions.[5]
(Taken from the wiki)

It says that the void itself is pure ¨mixed¨ magic and that by filtering it you split it up into usable components. Rather than the ley lines being light and the dark void being muddied, it would be more correct to say that the dark void is light and that the leylines are like said light being filtered through a crystal(the EDs and Aurene) to create a rainbow of distinct colours(elements), the leylines.
According to the wiki the void has been corrupted by a none-magic based force belonging to the EDs(probably the power which allowed Soo-Won to use ¨magic¨ to split the void before the magic as we know came to be) known as Dragon energy. Not much is known about dragon energy yet. 
The void itself is a sort of entropy, or more specifically, the stuff the mists are made of.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

27 minutes ago, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

(Taken from the wiki)

Aware of that, since I helped gather the info and clarify it.

But my point is that ley-lines and Voids are - independently - described in similar mannerism. With no distinction ever made to define how the two are different.

27 minutes ago, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

According to the wiki the void has been corrupted by a none-magic based force belonging to the EDs(probably the power which allowed Soo-Won to use ¨magic¨ to split the void before the magic as we know came to be) known as Dragon energy. Not much is known about dragon energy yet. 

Incorrect.

Season 3 establishes - in the very same dialogue I quoted a portion from in fact - that ley-line magic is dragon magic, that all Tyrian magic is dragon magic. What was previously defined as dragon magic was simply corruptive high concentration of the six domains.

Void was not twisted by Dragon energy, but the Elder Dragon's personas. The Elder Dragons being imperfect filters were slowly tormented by the Void, and this in turn left an imprint on the Void, becoming Dragonvoid.

27 minutes ago, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

The void itself is a sort of entropy, or more specifically, the stuff the mists are made of.

I disagree completely here. Specifically, this isn't indicated yet but is a possibility.
The Void isn't so much entropy (which is the spread and stillness of matter and energy, in layman's shorthand), but more of a magical blackhole, which is the combinating of matter and energy. So rather, the opposite of entropy can be said.
And for the comparison to the Mists - the Mists is made of protomatter that then becomes various things, but the Void is already of those "various things". It certainly is theoretically possible that the Void is a sort of "recycling system' for the Mists, which takes things and makes it back into protomatter. But such isn't confirmed or even directly implied. For all we know, the Void is merely localized to Tyria and its magical system, and is basically the magic version of a blackhole wholesale - what happens when magical concentration gets too large and dense and begins to collapse on itself - and is fully independent as the Mists, or at least as independent as any planet or star is.

[bullsxtwo.1027]

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Season 3 establishes - in the very same dialogue I quoted a portion from in fact - that ley-line magic is dragon magic, that all Tyrian magic is dragon magic. What was previously defined as dragon magic was simply corruptive high concentration of the six domains.

Void was not twisted by Dragon energy, but the Elder Dragon's personas. The Elder Dragons being imperfect filters were slowly tormented by the Void, and this in turn left an imprint on the Void, becoming Dragonvoid.

I was simply paraphrasing what the wiki said.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Void isn't so much entropy (which is the spread and stillness of matter and energy, in layman's shorthand), but more of a magical blackhole, which is the combinating of matter and energy. So rather, the opposite of entropy can be said.

That is actually indeed a better way to put it.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And for the comparison to the Mists - the Mists is made of protomatter that then becomes various things, but the Void is already of those "various things". It certainly is theoretically possible that the Void is a sort of "recycling system' for the Mists, which takes things and makes it back into protomatter. But such isn't confirmed or even directly implied. For all we know, the Void is merely localized to Tyria and its magical system, and is basically the magic version of a blackhole wholesale - what happens when magical concentration gets too large and dense and begins to collapse on itself - and is fully independent as the Mists, or at least as independent as any planet or star is.

In the beginning, everything was Void—timeless, cold, and empty.[7] There was a delicate balance at play: where the Mists sought to create various forms endlessly, the Void sought to return any created life and constructs back to the state of primordial chaos in the Mists only to be rearranged. -The wiki.

It is unclear if the Void's influence extends beyond the Tyrian part of the Mists to the other realms of the living. It appears that the Six Human Gods' magic is different from native Tyrian magic and would potentially suggest another type of Void or division of magic in the realm—or realms—from which the gods, the Forgotten, and humans had traveled to Tyria.[6] -The Wiki.

As far as I know, the void still has a lot of missing pieces which we will probably see in the near future.
But like much of GW2 lore, it takes heavy inspiration from already existing themes and concepts. So you can generally guess where things are going.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 minutes ago, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

In the beginning, everything was Void—timeless, cold, and empty.[7] There was a delicate balance at play: where the Mists sought to create various forms endlessly, the Void sought to return any created life and constructs back to the state of primordial chaos in the Mists only to be rearranged. -The wiki.

It is unclear if the Void's influence extends beyond the Tyrian part of the Mists to the other realms of the living. It appears that the Six Human Gods' magic is different from native Tyrian magic and would potentially suggest another type of Void or division of magic in the realm—or realms—from which the gods, the Forgotten, and humans had traveled to Tyria.[6] -The Wiki.

As far as I know, the void still has a lot of missing pieces which we will probably see in the near future.
But like much of GW2 lore, it takes heavy inspiration from already existing themes and concepts. So you can generally guess where things are going.

Please keep in mind that the wiki is fan written thus subject to perspective issues. But as you quote the wiki saying:

It is unclear if the Void's influence extends beyond the Tyrian part of the Mists to the other realms of the living.

The entire commentary of Void's existence from Kuunavang and Soo-Won is that it was there before the world of Tyria, and Soo-Won created Tyria out of the Void. That first bit is a player-written slight rephrasing of Kuunavang and Soo-Won being poetic in describing the Void. That second line in the first paragraph, however, appears to be speculation based on very vague poetic dialogue from a Void-influenced Tyrian. The inspiration of that sentence is:

Hebe: Beyond the horizon, infinity splits. You will crumble and scatter. Coalesce in another eon.

Hebe: Unmade and rearranged. Yesterday is beyond. Tomorrow isn't coming.

Hebe: Tomorrow isn't coming.

Which... doesn't mention anything about the Mists or the like. It really just reads off as "spooky mumbo jumbo" to me, tbh. Not sure how the writer - Kossage, no surprise - came to that conclusion even if there is meaning behind the words. I've already edited out references to the Mists, since to me "unmade and rearranged" doesn't imply the Void unmakes and the Mists rearranges, but rather exactly as Taimi says in the story: the Void unmakes by rearranging.

And as you say, there are a lot of missing pieces. What we have is extremely limited, but basically describes it as the same as ley-lines in regards to magic, but clearly ley-lines and Void are different (we just don't know how just that they are), and that Void existed before the world did.

[bullsxtwo.1027]

5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Please keep in mind that the wiki is fan written thus subject to perspective issues. But as you quote the wiki saying:

I'm aware that the wiki is fan-made, I'm just too lazy to go ingame and look for everything myself.

As for its connection to the mists, it's pretty clear to me that it is related in some way. The primary goal of the void is to ¨unravel¨ the world, since the world was created from the mists it's reasonable to assume that this would mean that the world would be in some way returned to the mists itself, returning to being proto matter. Which is likely what that void-influenced NPC was referring to, although I do agree that the part about the mists creating and the void destroying is a bit out of thin air.
As for the void, it's likely some sort of proto-magic elemental.

But again, I suspect we'll be hearing more about its connection to the mists in the near future, more specifically the relation to demons and Astral creatures (possibly fractals, if the writers have thought that far).

[Imba.9451]

4 hours ago, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

But again, I suspect we'll be hearing more about its connection to the mists in the near future, more specifically the relation to demons and Astral creatures (possibly fractals, if the writers have thought that far).

Wich does, however, cycle back to the topic of this thread: How much in advance was this Void planned? In wich case I tend to lean towards the lazy implementation of a Void-concept, because all the big game have that. Combined with how magic is this games nanomachines (wich is basically a satire on wonky magic systems anyway), I have a hard time of taking this whole topic serious.

[bullsxtwo.1027]

5 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Wich does, however, cycle back to the topic of this thread: How much in advance was this Void planned? In wich case I tend to lean towards the lazy implementation of a Void-concept, because all the big game have that. Combined with how magic is this games nanomachines (wich is basically a satire on wonky magic systems anyway), I have a hard time of taking this whole topic serious.

Probably longer than you'd think, the first mention of anything void like is in S2. But as I mentioned before it has probably also gone through several iterations behind scenes but the general idea has been around.
I wouldn't call it wonky but just soft magic, magic without any defined rules like LOTR. Most games do since it would be hard to come up with an explanation for why skills behave as they do.

[Imba.9451]

On 3/7/2023 at 12:11 PM, bullsxtwo.1027 said:

Probably longer than you'd think, the first mention of anything void like is in S2. But as I mentioned before it has probably also gone through several iterations behind scenes but the general idea has been around.
I wouldn't call it wonky but just soft magic, magic without any defined rules like LOTR. Most games do since it would be hard to come up with an explanation for why skills behave as they do.

Name dropping a word doesn't mean it had the same meaning as it has now. I read the thread. It really doesn't sound that the void was hinted at at all.

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Name dropping a word doesn't mean it had the same meaning as it has now. I read the thread. It really doesn't sound that the void was hinted at at all.

I agree.

Let @bullsxtwo.1027 hold onto their optimistic perspective of GW2's cohesion. I mean that unironically - I miss the times when I was more impressed with the game's writing/cohesion.

I should really find a link to the reddit post, but many years ago, a longtime writer for GW2 (who has since left the studio) told us on reddit that "worldbuilding" wasn't something the narrative team was interested in. I interpret this to mean that the narrative team didn't consider long-term cohesion that important, and was more interested in having their stories tell us something about individual characters (rather than about Tyria itself). The big caveats here are that (1) this was an unofficial statement from one writer, regardless of how veteran/important he was, and (2) it's quite possible there was enough turnover in the narrative team and executive team that this perspective didn't hold up for long.

That said, I think this "we don't care about worldbuilding" statement explains a lot about the direction of the game. I don't necessarily have a problem with the mechanical tools they used to tell  the story (I consider deus ex machinas boring but forgivable in gaming, Marvel-movie dialog is stupid but expected, etc.) or the general direction of the story (Elder Dragons were just scratching the surface of what holds the universe together/explains it/the All... kind of). 

What I resent is how... artless it all feels when you just take a closer look at the rough edges. And I think all those rough edges are directly attributable to a narrative team that focuses more on "where are we going next" without deeply considering "where are we starting from." Maybe this is just a result of crunch, but generally the studio's consideration of continuity feels quite thin to me. @Mykhel.6532 already pointed out some of the most notable gaps in Soo-Won's conceptual setup, and as always @Konig Des Todes.2086 identified a number of other issues that clearly suggest that many (if not most) connections that the Void/EoD has to previous GW2 lore is NOT the result of expertly executing on a carefully shepherded long-term narrative plan.

[Tyson.5160]

I think the general rough concept of the void has been around since S3 when the elder dragons started to take each other’s abilities. Not necessarily the name, “the void”. The concept of one dragon having command over all the other dragon magics. You would think by the time you get to the last dragon that this would be the case. So in a very generalized, rough kinda of way, the void has been planned.

 

To quote Caithe from Dragon Vigil in S3:

 

Caithe: So when we kill a dragon...?

<Character name>: The others absorb the loose power.

Caithe: Then I suppose we must kill them all before any one grows too powerful.

<Character name>: Seems like an increasingly difficult task...

Caithe: Indeed.

[Bast.7253]

3 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I think the general rough concept of the void has been around since S3 when the elder dragons started to take each other’s abilities. Not necessarily the name, “the void”. The concept of one dragon having command over all the other dragon magics. You would think by the time you get to the last dragon that this would be the case. So in a very generalized, rough kinda of way, the void has been planned.

 

To quote Caithe from Dragon Vigil in S3:

 

Caithe: So when we kill a dragon...?

<Character name>: The others absorb the loose power.

Caithe: Then I suppose we must kill them all before any one grows too powerful.

<Character name>: Seems like an increasingly difficult task...

Caithe: Indeed.

I don't know that that's the best example for the void but it was definitely a concept by the time Path of Fire launched. The Kesho? cinematic explained the intention behind Glint's prophecy with Aurene and Vlast fulfilling the empty roles. 

Granted even that seemed like it wasn't really finalized as eventually Aurene became the sole solution to the magic imbalance. At least as far as we know but given how quickly they resolved the elder dragon plot toward the end I'm assuming they're not backing down or continuing with that plot.

[Tyson.5160]

8 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I don't know that that's the best example for the void but it was definitely a concept by the time Path of Fire launched. The Kesho? cinematic explained the intention behind Glint's prophecy with Aurene and Vlast fulfilling the empty roles. 

Granted even that seemed like it wasn't really finalized as eventually Aurene became the sole solution to the magic imbalance. At least as far as we know but given how quickly they resolved the elder dragon plot toward the end I'm assuming they're not backing down or continuing with that plot.

From my understanding PoF and S3 were being worked on at the same time. So it doesn’t surprise me that these themes were there. We’re the idea of the void itself completely flushed out by this time? No probably not, but I believe the concept was there. By the time S4 came they were already on the Soo-Won of being mother. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Tyson.5160

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

From my understanding PoF and S3 were being worked on at the same time. So it doesn’t surprise me that these themes were there. We’re the idea of the void itself completely flushed out by this time? No probably not, but I believe the concept was there. By the time S4 came they were already on the Soo-Won of being mother. 

The idea of different magics mixing and causing troubles is an old one really. Though often not mentioned, there was comments back in the day how each magic profession's teachings can't completely be applied to other classes, making studying and specializing in multiple areas hard. I recall one line about how if you messed up you could cause an explosion but that may be a mistaken memory lol.

At the very least in Season 4 it was established there was some problem of the dragons absorbing the others magics, with Kralkatorrik's torment.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I think the general rough concept of the void has been around since S3 when the elder dragons started to take each other’s abilities. Not necessarily the name, “the void”. The concept of one dragon having command over all the other dragon magics. You would think by the time you get to the last dragon that this would be the case. So in a very generalized, rough kinda of way, the void has been planned.

 

To quote Caithe from Dragon Vigil in S3:

 

Caithe: So when we kill a dragon...?

<Character name>: The others absorb the loose power.

Caithe: Then I suppose we must kill them all before any one grows too powerful.

<Character name>: Seems like an increasingly difficult task...

Caithe: Indeed.

That's not really what the Void is though. I mean, that was used to lead into the Void's design and excuse of creation, but simply them becoming stronger by eating more magic was a thing since the PS, it was just new that they got new abilities, and this was a wholly independent thing used retroactively on Mordremoth using corpses.
But if you're going that indirectly connected, then it was "a thing" since Season 2 with the addition of The All and the imbalance implied to occur if the All's connected spirit realms (which originally were not the dragons themselves, but connected to the dragons - that kinda vanished) stop functioning in balance.

[mandala.8507]

I'm team "the Void has been a general concept for a very long time". I think a lot of people like to armchair write for this game, and so they interpret decisions they wouldn't have made or don't understand as the game being written poorly. They'd never concede Arenanet has been doing a really solid job building a cohesive world, even if a dev straight up said they planned things way in advance and always have a finger on the pulse of the greater lore of Tyria (which they have done on several occasions, but people choose to ignore those statements in favor of heavily extrapolated interpretations of statements that maybe sorta might suggest that sometimes the devs prioritize current character arcs and localized plotlines over the greater lore).

For instance, I can say that I wouldn't have written Soo-Won as the mother of all the other elder dragons, but I think this direction for her character ended up being something I really appreciated and can concede was well-written and greatly evolved the diversity and complexity of the elder dragons. And you won't find me making up excuses for why it was bad and why they shouldn't have done it solely based on it not being what I had envisioned for her character.

My discontent with poor community interpretations of the lore sparked my journey into understanding the game's story and themes a lot better over the last 2 years, and I can say assuredly that most of the critiques against the world-building of this game don't hold water.

But what do I know? 🤪

[Kalavier.1097]

10 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm team "the Void has been a general concept for a very long time". I think a lot of people like to armchair write for this game, and so they interpret decisions they wouldn't have made or don't understand as the game being written poorly. They'd never concede Arenanet has been doing a really solid job building a cohesive world, even if a dev straight up said they planned things way in advance and always have a finger on the pulse of the greater lore of Tyria (which they have done on several occasions, but people choose to ignore those statements in favor of heavily extrapolated interpretations of statements that maybe sorta might suggest that sometimes the devs prioritize current character arcs and localized plotlines over the greater lore).

For instance, I can say that I wouldn't have written Soo-Won as the mother of all the other elder dragons, but I think this direction for her character ended up being something I really appreciated and can concede was well-written and greatly evolved the diversity and complexity of the elder dragons. And you won't find me making up excuses for why it was bad and why they shouldn't have done it solely based on it not being what I had envisioned for her character.

My discontent with poor community interpretations of the lore sparked my journey into understanding the game's story and themes a lot better over the last 2 years, and I can say assuredly that most of the critiques against the world-building of this game don't hold water.

But what do I know? 🤪

Some people *not all, to be explicit* Love to complain and moan about anything or everything. There are people who will scream about how Anet has retconned everything in the world and made it all worse. Some will even make stuff up to support their hatred of certain characters or refuse to see how certain story parts explain why X character did that kinda annoying, stupid thing.

I won't say every choice has been good, but it's far from "Anet throws random ideas at the wall and grabs the worst ones."

 

But at the same time prepare yourself because some of the people can be vicious. I was harshly attacked in many ways online for daring to not hate the Shining blade episode.  Note, not praising it, but just not hating it entirely.

 

Course, to a lesser extent some roleplayers/fanfic writers who are trying to do big arcs will get mad because Anet will come out with an update involving X major faction that derails everything they want to do. I remember one separatist supporting minister player basically rage-quitting because his entire arc of weakening and dethroning Jennah was ruined because of the "Head of the Snake" episode promptly having all traitor ministers killed, arrested, or fleeing and losing power. Or others who wanted X region to be a certain way and Anet didn't do that.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Some will even make stuff up to support their hatred of certain characters or refuse to see how certain story parts explain why X character did that kinda annoying, stupid thing.

And I'm not against people having their own (even skewed) perspective on characters and plots that they share publicly, but when it comes from revered creators and active forum members who then take it a step too far and try to rationalize their skewed perspectives by claiming things are amiss with the writing and the narrative, then it starts to rub me the wrong way.

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

But at the same time prepare yourself because some of the people can be vicious. I was harshly attacked in many ways online for daring to not hate the Shining blade episode.  Note, not praising it, but just not hating it entirely.

And, yeah. People get really mad when you try to defend the writing. Luckily, biting retorts sting a lot less when you know you're right.

[Tyson.5160]

42 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

And I'm not against people having their own (even skewed) perspective on characters and plots that they share publicly, but when it comes from revered creators and active forum members who then take it a step too far and try to rationalize their skewed perspectives by claiming things are amiss with the writing and the narrative, then it starts to rub me the wrong way.

And, yeah. People get really mad when you try to defend the writing. Luckily, biting retorts sting a lot less when you know you're right.

I think some of the issue here is this lore isn’t a science. You can use evidence from the story to make points, but at the end of the day even that can’t be trusted, especially since there are so many writers as well as generations of writers. Kinda as if you have a set trilogy of books, but each book has a different author. Very similar to a long lasting tv shows that stumbles over the lore due to so many writers and it’s length. Sometimes you even get that on long running series with the same author, who may have forgotten a small plot point or whatever. At the end of the day it’s a form of entertainment and shouldn’t be taken so seriously.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I think some of the issue here is this lore isn’t a science. You can use evidence from the story to make points, but at the end of the day even that can’t be trusted, especially since there are so many writers as well as generations of writers. Kinda as if you have a set trilogy of books, but each book has a different author. Very similar to a long lasting tv shows that stumbles over the lore due to so many writers and it’s length. Sometimes you even get that on long running series with the same author, who may have forgotten a small plot point or whatever.

Yes, but this point is predicated on people complaining about verifiable, substantive inconsistencies. 

My point is that most of the time, the big inconsistencies people point to when critiquing the gw2 writing and world-building in particular are not inconsistencies at all; it's these players not understanding what they just experienced or not giving an even remotely respectable effort to make sense of the bigger picture before they start typing up their rants.

Not a huge deal with the small stuff, but when it's big-picture things, it's important we get that stuff right before we blast off online about it.

Lots of uninformed and half-baked takes have contributed to major discontent with the narrative of gw2 over the years, and left unchecked, many of the conclusions drawn from these less than insightful criticisms have lingered — continuing to poison players' understanding of the lore and narrative themes of gw2 to this day.

[Gibson.4036]

At the same time we’re all really good at patching holes and justify things we enjoy. Diehard fans have propped up long lasting IPs for decades with their faith in continuity and the cohesion of the lore.

The truth is that our brains are amazing pattern makers and our perception is heavily colored by what we want to perceive.

Go in digging for inconsistencies and you’ll turn the smallest thing into evidence of contradictions.

Go in trying to understand the master plan and see the foreshadowing years before and you’ll link together coincidences into tightly woven world-building.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Go in digging for inconsistencies and you’ll turn the smallest thing into evidence of contradictions.

Go in trying to understand the master plan and see the foreshadowing years before and you’ll link together coincidences into tightly woven world-building.

Just as a baseline rule, as human beings we should have higher standards for when we publicly criticize the things we do for fun than when we praise those things. It's beyond weird how the opposite is true in video games. When people like something or recognize something is well done in a video game, they enjoy it silently and maybe share their opinion with close friends. When they don't like something in a game they play entirely voluntarily? Oof, time to pop off and tell everyone with a pulse how bad it is.

And the issue with your statement is it's a false equivalency. People who are taking the time to understand the connections in the writing and world-building of gw2 are being rewarded with a better grasp of the lore and the ability to better predict and identify future plot directions, because the interconnectivity of the storytelling and big-picture narrative themes stand the test of time even 10+ years after its initial release.

Conversely, people who are criticizing all these things unjustifiably are looking silly and like they don't know what they're talking about. But they outnumber the people going out of their way to defend the writing 10:1. The "both sides" argument doesn't work here because one side is correct and the other is just angry.

[Bast.7253]

On 3/19/2023 at 3:19 PM, Tyson.5160 said:

From my understanding PoF and S3 were being worked on at the same time. So it doesn’t surprise me that these themes were there. Were the idea of the void itself completely flushed out by this time? No probably not, but I believe the concept was there. By the time S4 came they were already on the Soo-Won of being mother. 

Maybe towards the end. In the season 4 finale guild chat they implied they didn’t really have an origin story in mind for the elder dragons. They just said “mother” might be a plot point worth noticing.

 

Given they immediately jumped ship to IBS without an expansion planned I don’t think Soo Won being the elder dragon mother/creator being was really defined. I mean you hear waves in the fight if you listen closely so they might have had an idea that they wanted mother to be the deep sea dragon but I’m not confident they had much beyond that. 

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

Just as a baseline rule, as human beings we should have higher standards for when we publicly criticize the things we do for fun than when we praise those things. It's beyond weird how the opposite is true in video games. When people like something or recognize something is well done in a video game, they enjoy it silently and maybe share their opinion with close friends. When they don't like something in a game they play entirely voluntarily? Oof, time to pop off and tell everyone with a pulse how bad it is.

And the issue with your statement is it's a false equivalency. People who are taking the time to understand the connections in the writing and world-building of gw2 are being rewarded with a better grasp of the lore and the ability to better predict and identify future plot directions, because the interconnectivity of the storytelling and big-picture narrative themes stand the test of time even 10+ years after its initial release.

Conversely, people who are criticizing all these things unjustifiably are looking silly and like they don't know what they're talking about. But they outnumber the people going out of their way to defend the writing 10:1. The "both sides" argument doesn't work here because one side is correct and the other is just angry.

I think my intent may not have been clear.

Yes, people criticize more than they praise. Yes, that's unfortunate.

My point wasn't about criticism or praise, though, it's that we very easily see what we're looking for, whether it is there or not. Our brains find patterns.

Look hard enough for consistency, and you'll find it. Look hard enough for inconsistency, and the same. This isn't false equivalency, it's true.

You clearly have a bias here, in the way you write about people. Those who praise are "taking the time to understand the connections" while people who criticise are "silly and like they don't know what they're talking about." You leave no room for people who actually do care for the lore and have looked into it but found some of it thin. Nor people who are eager to find connections, and may be seeing things that aren't there.

To be clear, I find the story adequate for what it is. I'm not in the "ugh dreadful" camp. It's what I would expect going to a summer blockbuster sequel.

But saying, "I spend a lot of time looking for the consistency and found it" doesn't necessarily mean it's there. It might be. Or it might be in the eye of the beholder.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Jimbru.6014]

Maybe I'm just being confused by the reuse of Void graphical assets and demons like the Aatxe in Gyala Delve, but...

It has never been explained to my knowledge exactly what the Shadow Behemoth, Aatxe and other such shadowy demon creatures actually are, where they're from et al.  We meet them very early in the game in Queensdale and Kessex Hills, and have never seen again that I can recall until Gyala. At least visually, they seem to have some kinship to the Corrupted Void.

It IS clear that the Void is different and distinct from the Shadow Army creatures we fight in Dragonfall. They are servants of Menzies from Torment, and we haven't seen them in Gyala. No connection there.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Jimbru.6014

[Fueki.4753]

13 minutes ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Maybe I'm just being confused by the reuse of Void graphical assets and demons like the Aatxe in Gyala Delve, but...

It has never been explained to my knowledge exactly what the Shadow Behemoth, Aatxe and other such shadowy demon creatures actually are, where they're from et al.  We meet them very early in the game in Queensdale and Kessex Hills, and have never seen again that I can recall until Gyala. At least visually, they seem to have some kinship to the Corrupted Void.

It IS clear that the Void is different and distinct from the Shadow Army creatures we fight in Dragonfall. They are servants of Menzies from Torment, and we haven't seen them in Gyala. No connection there.

There are some near a Hero Challenge in Lornar's Pass. Necromancers can also summon a Shadow Fiend as a minion.

As far as I am aware, there are no connections between them and the Oni. But we don't know what happened to the Mists since Kralkatorrik died.