warrior overall viability concern after SIO nerf

[felix.2386]

people are forgetting

Shake it off nerf is kinda huge.

 

sure, 30 second cd could possibly better for prolonged 1v1, but overall warrior is already pretty good at prolonged 1v1 compared to what other things warrior can/can't do.

without shake it off being 2 ammo, warrior will be very vulnerable to plus ones, even less viable in group fights against CC chaining and condition stacking.

 

sure you could take 60 second cooldown balance stance, but..it is another slot needed to compete with the likes of endure pain and bull charge.

 

the likes of power spellbreaker, imagine it only having one charge of shake it off, it is already very weak against condition, now it will get destroyed hard against condition stacking.

 

unless anet wants every warrior take defense cleansing ire, else warrior has no other way to properly cleanse condition outside of mending, shake it off and cleansing ire

the only other option warrior has is signet of stamina, which is literally not worth, even against nerfed shake it off. unless you make it the active effect gives evade frame.

 

i'm fine with shake it off nerf, yes it is a very stacked skill, but it is also a huge part of warrior viability in literally every single playable build for warrior.

warrior needs more ways to avoid conditions and cc chains.

 

the new cleansing ire and stalwart strength is cool and all, but again like all the old warrior symptom, you can only choose one over the others, also if it resulting in every single warrior builds need defense would be a big problem.

[felix.2386]

also gonna gonna affect support spellbreaker effectiveness alone with any type of shoutheal build overall imo

before you can use one to save ally from conditions and heal and save one so you don't get cc'ed to death

 

now if you use one for ally you get none for yourself, and you basically need to sacrifice one shout slot for endure pain or w/e

or you need to keep shake it off for yourself both = support ability lost

[KryTiKaL.3125]

As much as I'm sure we both agree that there are a lot of conditions in the game to contend with, which has all but necessitated Shake It Off in builds not just because of its cleanses but also the healing it provided as an addon, Warrior's personal cleansing was never that particularly weak. Mending is not a weak skill when it comes to this, neither is the Discipline trait that cleanses on swap, or the Sigil that performs a similar function.

This is, for sure, going to hit any support builds decently hard but I think we need to really see these changes in the game before we can say for certain whether or not Shake It Off is so absolutely necessary for Warrior to maintain a respectable amount of cleansing for itself. I don't think it is, but if anything its just trading SIO as a mandatory slot for Mending as a mandatory slot.

[Ukronblake.8265]

Then don't use SIO. Use something else.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

Fools!  Do you not recognize the Natural Healing 'stealth buff' this is??!!!111 😆

[felix.2386]

1 hour ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

As much as I'm sure we both agree that there are a lot of conditions in the game to contend with, which has all but necessitated Shake It Off in builds not just because of its cleanses but also the healing it provided as an addon, Warrior's personal cleansing was never that particularly weak. Mending is not a weak skill when it comes to this, neither is the Discipline trait that cleanses on swap, or the Sigil that performs a similar function.

This is, for sure, going to hit any support builds decently hard but I think we need to really see these changes in the game before we can say for certain whether or not Shake It Off is so absolutely necessary for Warrior to maintain a respectable amount of cleansing for itself. I don't think it is, but if anything its just trading SIO as a mandatory slot for Mending as a mandatory slot.

power warrior builds does lack in condition cleansing, well, not in a sense in 1v1.

but when getting plus one'd, which stunbreak is also the bigger problem for when getting ganked. 

side node power warrior has always been weak to condition which is why they buffed mending from 3 to 5(a heal removing 5 condition with 16 sec cd is literally ridiculous on it's own) yet power warrior still weak against condition.

both mending and shake it off has been mandatory already for power warrior, there's literally no trading happening.

on the other hand, healbreaker is not weak with self condition cleansing, but will hit it's capability for support as you will not have a stunbreak if you use it for ally.

it is really hitting multiple builds in different ways

 

15 minutes ago, Ukronblake.8265 said:

Then don't use SIO. Use something else.

i would agree, if there's other better option. if you look at power spellbreaker setups, greataxe setups, healbreaker setups, bladesworn etc. all of those SIO usage, what would be the alternative that would not greatly impact overall capability? basically does not exist.

Edited September 21, 2022 by felix.2386

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

power warrior builds does lack in condition cleansing, well, not in a sense in 1v1.

but when getting plus one'd, which stunbreak is also the bigger problem for when getting ganked. 

side node power warrior has always been weak to condition which is why they buffed mending from 3 to 5(a heal removing 5 condition with 16 sec cd is literally ridiculous on it's own) yet power warrior still weak against condition.

both mending and shake it off has been mandatory already for power warrior, there's literally no trading happening.

on the other hand, healbreaker is not weak with self condition cleansing, but will hit it's capability for support as you will not have a stunbreak if you use it for ally.

it is really hitting multiple builds in different ways

 

i would agree, if there's other better option. if you look at power spellbreaker setups, greataxe setups, healbreaker setups, bladesworn etc. all of those SIO usage, what would be the alternative that would not greatly impact overall capability? basically does not exist.

I think SIO is overall a little bit better now than it was. It's true that you can't use 2 charges back to back anymore, but you're also not stuck waiting 75s for it to recharge. I've avoided death plenty of times because I chained SIO, but I've also died plenty of times because it was on CD. The worst is when you have to make a split second decision like "I'm pretty sure I'm going to die here, so maybe I just give up and dont use my last charge of SIO because otherwise it will still be on CD for 60s when I respawn... "

 

I do think SpB will be decent against condis with the new Defense. A big part of Warrior's weakness to condis in the first place is the fact that you need to close with your enemy, many of which are trying to kite you and wear you down. And the biggest "problem condis" aren't just the damaging condis, but also the chill, blind, immob, weakness, fear, etc--all of which is countered by resistance. And we now get resistance on dodge roll. Between that, revenge counter, and maybe featherfoot grace, you can have almost perma resistance (Ok maybe not permanent, but it's a LOT of resistance). This in turn helps you pressure your target and land your FCs and bursts--which can cleanse 2 condis apiece with the new Cleansing Ire. Throw in some Mending and a low CD SIO... You'll be pretty resilient to condis if you want to be.

 

That said, if you're trying to survive outnumbered, it would probably be better to run stalwart strength. You'd end up with potentially a lot of stability from your FC procs (esp vs all the  jade bots, pets, clones, etc running around these days).

 

Maybe it won't be best-in-slot or "meta", but I think it could definitely be better than it is currently. I'm eager to see how it plays out. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The Cleansing Ire buff though will shore up any loss in condition removal, especially with the extra Resistance we'll be getting.

[Mungrul.9358]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:07 AM, RiyazGuerra.9203 said:

Fools!  Do you not recognize the Natural Healing 'stealth buff' this is??!!!111 😆

Actually, you've just given me a good idea for a Natural Healing Buff: reduce cooldown by  1 second for each boon and condition removed.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I don't mind. Waiting for 75 sec per charge once I used both in WvW is more punishing than a 24 sec CD traited Shake it Off. I simply care with how I play into condi builds. And it's not like Shake it Off could actually save you always. 

Between the new Cleansing Ire and the buff to Revenge Counter (hoping for the Trasnfer change at some point) I don't rly have much of an issue with SiO not being ammo anymore. 

In PvP it's def gonna be less effective for chain CC escapes, but constant CCs countered Shake it Off anyway. 

[Mungrul.9358]

See, as they added one of the things I and other suggested to SIO (group stunbreak), yes, removing ammo count makes it worse for 1v1, but it's now AMAZING for skirmishes and larger group combat. I don't think any other profession offers a group stunbreak. That gives Warrior a unique support role.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mungrul.9358
Clarification

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I don't mind. Waiting for 75 sec per charge once I used both in WvW is more punishing than a 24 sec CD traited Shake it Off. I simply care with how I play into condi builds. And it's not like Shake it Off could actually save you always. 

Between the new Cleansing Ire and the buff to Revenge Counter (hoping for the Trasnfer change at some point) I don't rly have much of an issue with SiO not being ammo anymore. 

In PvP it's def gonna be less effective for chain CC escapes, but constant CCs countered Shake it Off anyway. 

I'm going to second all of this. I think the new Cleansing Ire will become the main source of condition cleansing. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

See, as they added one of the things I and other suggested to SIO (group stunbreak), yes, removing ammo count makes it worse for 1v1, but it's now AMAZING for skirmishes and larger group combat. I don't think any other profession offers a group stunbreak. That gives Warrior a unique support role.

Protect me, ironically, is a group stunbreak. That has more to do with the fact that Ranger has unique group support capabilities while lacking any significant presence tho. 

So yeah, and the now nerfed Elite FB mantra is another group stunbreak. I don't recall any outside of these 3.

Overall, SiO downtime has decreased and again, I will still run Core with Tactics even after the patch, despite Defense looking very good. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm going to second all of this. I think the new Cleansing Ire will become the main source of condition cleansing. 

Soldier's Focus healing more per conditions on you would be a very nice lil update for a solo tactics build, so that tactics does not entirely fall off. 

We just need to balance out the options and Arms needs it's piwer role defined more and condition role to be more potent. Along with a couple of tweaks in Discipline, warrior will be finally as it should have been. 

 

Question: outside the stream and the posted patch changes, should we expect a lot of more changes in Oct 4, or are we referncing the Nov patch after that? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Soldier's Focus healing more per conditions on you would be a very nice lil update for a solo tactics build, so that tactics does not entirely fall off. 

We just need to balance out the options and Arms needs it's piwer role defined more and condition role to be more potent. Along with a couple of tweaks in Discipline, warrior will be finally as it should have been. 

 

Question: outside the stream and the posted patch changes, should we expect a lot of more changes in Oct 4, or are we referncing the Nov patch after that? 

Any changes that differ from the stream or preview notes would be based on any feedback/pushback they received I think, I'm not expecting random things that they did not preview. I think the Nov. patch is where we may see more warrior changes.

[CaffeeCup.5742]

Just speaking from just my own personal spvp playstyle, I think SiO change might, theoretically, be more of a buff for me.

I still remember when I was totally trash, I would burn my SiO constantly, but the better I got, the better I'm able to manage and cycle through all the different available condi cleanses, so the upcoming reduced overall cooldown of SiO, plus the increased availability of resistance, I think, at least theoretically, makes that cleanse management better overall.  At least in my head it looks that way, no way to tell until I play it, of course.

Edited September 23, 2022 by CaffeeCup.5742

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:04 AM, Mungrul.9358 said:

Actually, you've just given me a good idea for a Natural Healing Buff: reduce cooldown by  1 second for each boon and condition removed.

Good suggestion.  Thinking outside of the box, I like that.

[thaniretouni.4762]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:01 AM, Ukronblake.8265 said:

Then don't use SIO. Use something else.

Like we don't use a ton of other skills? In warrior over 60% of weapon skills and over 50% of utility skills are super outdated or plain garbage in WvW