Bring back the Pve Reaper

[Obtena.7952]

39 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

More damage will definitely solve most of the problem. It has properties such as grasp, opening burst, boon strip, aoe blind field, projectile absorb etc because you have 1 open utility. Functionality reaper is fine. I'd advocate for other changes because there's plenty of completely useless skills and traits, but generally reaper has the toolset, it just need to do the main job of a dps which is to do dps.

Again, what problem are we talking about here?  Instanced PUGs?

If we are talking about PUG wanting optimal comps, they aren't going to take a Reaper with any less than TOP DPS levels. In the cases of PUGs that aren't optimal, they don't care what you take so it's not a problem.

So again, we are talking about what? 25-30% increase in DPS to get Reaper to 'optimal PUG' territory. OK, so ask yourself why Anet hasn't done that yet if it's a great solution?

People need to stop convincing themselves of solutions being implemented that simply aren't realistic. Competing as a purely DPS spec is not good solution. There just isn't bandwidth in a team for that be realistic approach. It's a zero sum game; if someone is top DPS, someone else isn't, so it CAN'T be how we look at what Reaper needs to be desirable in a team. 

I mean, if Reaper is functional fine, why do people not want it in a team? Before banner changes, Warrior was desirable and it had terrible DPS, so you can't conclude that this is JUST a DPS problem on Reaper. 

The fact is this: Reapers aren't going to compete as a pure DPS for LOTS of reasons. It's not ONLY about the amount of DPS they can do either. Consider just how Reaper compares to Virtuoso playstyle as one example. That alone would exclude Reaper. Virtuoso is just way more reliable because Reaper DPS is coupled to shroud that doubles duty as a HP barrier as well.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

24 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what problem are we talking about here?  Instanced PUGs?

If we are talking about PUG wanting optimal comps, they aren't going to take a Reaper with any less than TOP DPS levels. In the cases of PUGs that aren't optimal, they don't care what you take so it's not a problem.

So again, we are talking about what? 25-30% increase in DPS to get Reaper to 'optimal PUG' territory. OK, so ask yourself why Anet hasn't done that yet if it's a great solution?

People need to stop convincing themselves of solutions being implemented that simply aren't realistic. Competing as a purely DPS spec is not good solution. There just isn't bandwidth in a team for that be realistic approach. It's a zero sum game; if someone is top DPS, someone else isn't, so it CAN'T be how we look at what Reaper needs to be desirable in a team. 

I mean, if Reaper is functional fine, why do people not want it in a team? Before banner changes, Warrior was desirable and it had terrible DPS, so you can't conclude that this is JUST a DPS problem on Reaper. 

The fact is this: Reapers aren't going to compete as a pure DPS for LOTS of reasons. It's not ONLY about the amount of DPS they can do either. Consider just how Reaper compares to Virtuoso playstyle. That alone would exclude Reaper. Virtuoso is just way more reliable. 

Any instance content. Optimal comps definitely will take power reaper if is within acceptable levels. You literally see vindicators see htcm on the occasion even though they bench 36k on big hitbox. If power reaper can be around 36k-38k then you will definitely see the class there because it has cleave, cc, opening burst and boon stirp. So you are wrong on this one.

As for why Anet hasn't done it? Probably because they are bad at balance and think shroud tankiness means it should take a gigantic dps cut? Why are you trusting them so much on this? You do realize you can think for yourself correct and not think whatever Anet doing is correct.

Is fine for power reaper to not be top dps, I was just talking about it in the other topic. The importance is to have it within acceptable levels which is clearly not.

As for things like Virtuoso, yes I agree that they should be nerfed. You shouldn't be a pure range class and multiple invul buttons and utility such as portal to do more damage than a melee class. This isn't a discussion about them though. This is about power reaper.

I am really curious, do you even play group content with anything? Because you honestly sound like you have no idea what people are talking about.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

The fact remains ... pushing DPS is the most unreliable, unrealistic and unstable approach to make a spec appealing for a team. 

Again, if you just want to broadly talk about instanced content not specific to optimal PUGs, then the answer here is that there is no requirement to achieve some minimum DPS to participate with a spec because in that case, DPS is MUCH more dependent on the player than the build. Reaper doesn't do acceptable level of DPS? That's a very subjective assessment and highly dependent on the player. 

So let's not pretend that all the sudden, when we talk about the broader community here, there is some solid foundation of what defines acceptable DPS or that somehow, benchmarks we are familiar with are relevant in that case. 

So ... power reaper more generally desirable to play in instanced content? That's not a DPS solution ... that's a "it has desireable team function" solution. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact remains ... pushing DPS is the most unreliable, unrealistic and unstable approach to make a spec appealing for a team. 

That is completely incorrect, as long as several classes are within the dps range the nobody gives a junk what you take. Have you ever lead a team and tried to do early clears before? Because unless the difference is absolutely ginormous, nobody really cares. The difference just need to be close. Power reaper is just nowhere near this level at the moment. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

That is completely incorrect, as long as several classes are within the dps range the nobody gives a junk what you take. Have you ever lead a team and tried to do early clears before? Because unless the difference is absolutely ginormous, nobody really cares. The difference just need to be close. Power reaper is just nowhere near this level at the moment. 

Well it's not because we have threads like this since forever for lots of specs ... 

... but it doesn't matter because at this point it's academic ... because if DPS was the solution to Reaper (or any other specs) being more desirable in a team, you simply need to ask yourself why there are a whole bunch of specs that aren't desirable from offering DPS.

You don't ask yourself the questions that lead you to answers you don't like. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well it's not because we have threads like this since forever for lots of specs ... 

... but it doesn't matter because at this point it's academic ... because if DPS was the solution to Reaper being more desirable in a team, you simply need to ask yourself why that doesn't happen. or why that doesn't happen for LOTS of other specs either. You don't ask yourself the questions that lead you to answers you don't like. 

I do, because anet is bad at balancing. I don't get why you think this is some mindblowing fact that people need to look deep inside themselves. They are hit or miss but they are more miss than hit. Just look at the absolute travesty that was the last patch. You'd think nobody plays warrior. lol 5% crit chance in arms. I don't even want to talk about banners.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I do, because anet is bad at balancing. I don't get why you think this is some mindblowing fact that people need to look deep inside themselves. They are hit or miss but they are more miss than hit. Just look at the absolute travesty that was the last patch. You'd think nobody plays warrior. lol 5% crit chance in arms. I don't even want to talk about banners.

Right ... and a group bad at balancing is all the sudden, going to get good at it and deliver on a whole bunch of specs that compete equally in the most competitive subset of roles the game has for instanced content? Again, this just demonstrates how a DPS solution here is unrealistic, unstable, unsustainable. I mean, you have to realize that for Anet to deliver what you are asking for ... they HAVE to be good at balancing right?

It's OK, you push the DPS angle, like a whole bunch of other people have been doing for 8 years. I have no doubt where that will end up. 

On the other hand, if you look at what's happening with content and how Anet creating team desirability around roles, you get a much more realistic understanding of what is possible and sustainable for Reaper.  The desirable-team problem is solved with a desirable-team feature, and the DPS market is already plenty saturated with that. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and a group bad at balancing is all the sudden, going to get good at it and deliver on a whole bunch of specs that compete equally in the most competitive subset of roles the game has for instanced content. Again, this just demonstrates how a DPS solution here is unrealistic, unstable, unsustainable.

It's OK, you push the DPS angle, like a whole bunch of other people have been doing for 8 years. I have no doubt where that will end up. 

On the other hand, if you look at what's happening with content and how Anet creating team desirability around roles, you get a much more realistic understanding of what is possible and sustainable for Reaper.  

They had since HoT to make power reaper good. Time is not the issue here. Them getting good is.

So no, all it demonstrates how bad they are at balancing. Historically all the dps spec was fine as long as their dps is buffed to acceptable range. We are in the necro forums right. Look at scourge, prime example of a class. Plenty of utility, dps buffed to stupid levels and nerfed and then had its utility nerfed. So it had less utility than before but better dps, now is one of the most stable profession in practically all content. A simple dps buff fixed the desirably issue. 

 

So yes, I think you have no idea what you are talking about trying to participating in a topic involving a content you never do. Please go away. You are making the thread harder to read.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

They had since HoT to make power reaper good. Time is not the issue here. Them getting good is.

Yeah and again, in order for Anet to deliver what you are asking for, they already have be good to do it. There is no way a team that can't balance well is going to increase the number of competitors in the most competitive DPS role equally. It's just a dream to think they just 'get good' and you get what you want. 

That's why focusing on team desirable features is the proper and correct approach here if the problem is Reaper not being desirable in a team. I mean, the REAL fix to that has be talked about lots of times: it's to make bosses more impacted (or at all impacted) by the tools that Reaper has. Lots of the things that Reaper/Necro are capable of doing are simply not relevant in that situation; that's the best way for Anet to make Reaper desirable and it's also a good way to increase the bandwidth of instance encounter mechanics in general. 

But that's where the discussion typically ends because the mantra people repeat as the goal to be more desirable in a team isn't REALLY what they want. They just want to get more DPS and don't know how to justify it with any other reasoning than 'can't get a team'. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah and again, in order for Anet to deliver what you are asking for, they already have be good to do it. There is no way a team that can't balance well is going to increase the competitors in an equal way in the most competitive role for instanced content. It's just a dream to think they just 'get good' and you get what you want. 

That's why focusing on team desirable features is the proper and correct approach here if the problem is Reaper not being desirable in a team. I mean, the REAL fix to that has be talked about lots of times: it's to make bosses more impacted (or at all impacted) by the tools that Reaper has. Lots of the things that Reaper/Necro are capable of doing are simply not relevant in that situation; that's the best way for Anet to make Reaper desirable and it's also a good way to increase the bandwidth of instance encounter mechanics in general. 

 

Yes we have been coping since HoT wishing them to get good. Do I think is likely they will do it? Honestly a little bit right now, there has been very consistent threads on both reddit and here asking for reaper buffs. They know this. Would they do it? I don't know, but is better to ask than to not. 

 

As for utility, it's dps simply simply doesn't match to its utility or rather the utility doesn't match to it's dps. Is doing quick/ala dps at the moment without providing any of those important boons. Even if it does, the boon providers have a pure dps spec that does not grant those boons but perform decent tier of dps. 

 

Look, you can have all the utility in the entire god kitten world but if you do 30k dps and others are doing 38k then nothing is going to save you, unless you have something that makes everyone completely invulnerable for 5 seconds on a 10 sec cd or something stupid. Imagine reaper right now get portal, guardian SYG, transfusion, reflect, aoe super speed or whatever utility you can think of. It would still not be considered a spot in places such as htcm because it is failing to do the basic description of a dps, which is to do dps.

 

Imagine a quickness provider that can't do quickness and you are suggesting why not just buff it's dps instead. You would be told you are stupid. That's what you are doing right now, go telling a really bad dps that instead of buffing the dps, it need more utility. lol ok.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Warscythes.9307 said:

Look, you can have all the utility in the entire god kitten world but if you do 30k dps and others are doing 38k then nothing is going to save you, unless you have something that makes everyone completely invulnerable for 5 seconds on a 10 sec cd or something stupid.

That's just not true. Warriors did it with their old banners. DPS is NOT the only solution to making a class desirable in instance content teams. 

[Warscythes.9307]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's just not true. Warriors did it with their old banners. DPS is NOT the only solution to making a class desirable in instance content teams. 

Yes, because warriors being bannerslaves is a desirable outcome for reaper. lolok.

 

What do you even think the banners do besides providing dps? Cause they are just straight dps stat buffs.

 

I am going to ask you this one more time, have you ever played in any more serious group content before. Because you sound you have not step foot in sort of more organized environment. Do you even have the raid mastery unlocked? If you do, how are you sprouting so much nonsense?

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Yes, because warriors being bannerslaves is a desirable outcome for reaper. lolok.

What do you even think the banners do besides providing dps? Cause they are just straight dps stat buffs.

You miss the point. DPS is NOT the only way to make Reapers desirable in teams because DPS is NOT the reason LOTS of specs are desired, even ones that have BAD DPS. I mean, you give exactly the reason why DPS is such a bad solution here and prove my point ... Old banner warriors were desirable with bad DPS because of what they offer the whole team ... that's WAY more desirable than a class that simply competes for high DPS slots. 

Further to that, it's a bad way to make Reapers desirable in teams, because of how competitive DPS slots are, how bad Anet is at balance and how unlikely a solution it is. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Artificer.3468]

The wayy i see it is this. The bar for necro bringing some team buff or desirable utility is a way higher bar to pass than just bringing more damage especially since unique buffs are pretty much off the table at this point

 

 

Pure damage is definitely the most flexible role and making reaper at least competitive in that role isnt a bad thing. at the very least they could give it to power harb too since it's also pretty low even built for pure power dps

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Artificer.3468 said:

The wayy i see it is this. The bar for necro bringing some team buff or desirable utility is a way higher bar to pass than just bringing more damage especially since unique buffs are pretty much off the table at this point

 

 

Pure damage is definitely the most flexible role and making reaper at least competitive in that role isnt a bad thing. at the very least they could give it to power harb too since it's also pretty low even built for pure power dps

This is a fair view. Changing content to make Reaper toolset more relevant or Reaper to compete on a non-DPS slot is probably more involved than just buffing it's DPS. So the question here is again, what problem are we talking about solving here? 

My issue with these threads is that it pushes a DPS solution that limited to a subset of team scenarios as a fix for a much broader set of issues. The idea that Reaper needs to compete is very limited to a subset of teams that doesn't really address the deficiency that it has for teaming more broadly. It's only deficient in DPS where you want a optimal team spot. It's deficient in EVERY team because it lacks a team-focused support feature, where support is more valuable than DPS for team success overall.

So what is the goal? 

As for the OP's problems specifically, I believe that's related to the restrictions Anet has created based on  a 2-mode spec (in and out of shroud). 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Artificer.3468]

as long as the solution isnt alac shouts i'm at least willing to listen, in the meantime i will keep suggesting they buff power necro damage in pve until i'm blue in the face. 

[Artificer.3468]

there's also the matter of other gamemodes, whatever they add to necro in terms of team utility unless very specific may be an unwanted buff in pvp/wvw

i dont see them changing the gamemode split to be more drastic as much as i would like that. whereas damage could be along the lines of the split they currently maintain  but maybe they can surprise us

[Kulvar.1239]

48 minutes ago, Artificer.3468 said:

there's also the matter of other gamemodes, whatever they add to necro in terms of team utility unless very specific may be an unwanted buff in pvp/wvw

i dont see them changing the gamemode split to be more drastic as much as i would like that. whereas damage could be along the lines of the split they currently maintain  but maybe they can surprise us

Seeing today patch, ANet is open to make a trait give quickness/alacrity in PvE but Might in WvW/PvP

But Reaper should be pure DPS, not support

Edited October 4, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Obtena.7952]

It's a fantasy to think Reaper can be a reliable DPSer in a team as long as it's DPS is coupled to shroud uptime. I mean, a team can't even heal it while it's in shroud to get the maximum shroud uptime you would need to max your DPS. It's just not going to work. I suspect even for the seasoned Reaper player that will minimize it's exposure to harm in a team setting ... to compete with a current top DPSer clases, the percent that Reaper DPS would need to be buffed to make up for the shroud time lost due to taking damage alone alone is some double digit. Add into that the poor DPS performance out of shroud along with that. It all starts looking pretty absurd to consider what would need to happen to Reaper to make it compete with other classes. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Radina.6057]

Why would it be a fantasy? 
Buff Greatsword, Soul Sprial, and any other power weapon. Optionally nerf Shroud Auto Attacks.
Suddenly you dont need to stand in shroud for half an hour anymore and just enter and exit whenever you either need the CC, (Cold Shoulder,) or Spiral comes up.

There is no magic involved in getting Reaper into a decent state. The problem, apart form pure damage numbers, is that your stay in Shroud for the Bench numbers is ridiculously long, which is hard or even impossible to achieve during instanced fights. Those changes would solve that.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

Why would it be a fantasy? 
Buff Greatsword, Soul Sprial, and any other power weapon. Optionally nerf Shroud Auto Attacks.
Suddenly you dont need to stand in shroud for half an hour anymore and just enter and exit whenever you either need the CC, (Cold Shoulder,) or Spiral comes up.

There is no magic involved in getting Reaper into a decent state. The problem, apart form pure damage numbers, is that your stay in Shroud for the Bench numbers is ridiculously long, which is hard or even impossible to achieve during instanced fights. Those changes would solve that.

That's exactly it ... if Anet are going to make a calculated increase to DPS for Reaper, what is the shroud uptime they use to make that increase for the in-shroud DPSchange? This is NOT as simple as people are assuming here. The DPS in and out of shroud has to be carefully considered. It's complicated because of massive DPS differences in an out of shroud, as well as large differences between the time in an out of shroud. It's even more complicated because the weapon you have in shroud is not the weapon you use out of shroud. 

For example, if Anet puts ALL the DPS increase into shroud, I can guarantee that there will be many scenarios where no matter what that increase is, a player might not benefit from it. If Anet puts all the DPS increase into out-shroud, then it's a wash if you maximize your shroud uptime. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's exactly it ... if Anet are going to make a calculated increase to DPS for Reaper, what is the shroud uptime they use to make that increase for the in-shroud change? This is NOT as simple as people are assuming here. 

Like, if Anet puts ALL the DPS into shroud, I can guarantee that there will be many scenarios where no matter what that increase is, a player might not benefit from it. 

They don't need to, easiest way is just add some sort of universal modifier and figure out the details later if they want to do something more interesting. You have to get in and out of shroud because soul barb exist, of course they should balance for 100% shroud uptime which is 10 seconds because that is the soul barb duration. There is nothing hard about it. This would be difficult if the class has a huge rotation issue or extremely complicated combo that's difficult to pull but none of it applies to the class.

 

That's it. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

They don't need to, easiest way is just add some sort of universal modifier and figure out the details later if they want to do something more interesting. You have to get in and out of shroud because soul barb exist, of course they should balance for 100% shroud uptime which is 10 seconds because that is the soul barb duration. There is nothing hard about it. This would be difficult if the class has a huge rotation issue or extremely complicated combo that's difficult to pull but none of it applies to the class.

 

That's it. 

Well no, it's not that simple because even Anet acknowledge they have to do a better job at implementing changes that don't harshly offset one group for players based on another. That's the scenario we would be in with how Reaper DPS buffs work. 

I mean, your post is a good example ... your assuming everyone is playing Reaper to get into Soul Barbs every 10 seconds to maximize there DPS. That's balancing around one specific subset of players. That's probably not how most people are using this spec. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well no, it's not that simple because even Anet acknowledge they have to do a better job at implementing changes that don't harshly offset one group for players based on another. That's the scenario we would be in with how Reaper DPS buffs work. 

Like what? How would a proposed universal damage buff offset one player base against another? 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Like what? How would a proposed universal damage buff offset one player base against another? 

Shroud uptime ... the exact thing we are talking about here. You don't believe that on average, good players are going to have a significantly better shroud uptime vs. average ones? or that there will be scenarios where even good players can't avoid taking damage to maximize their uptime, affecting their DPS?

The point is that there ISN'T a universal buff for Reaper DPS that can be applied to give a reliable DPS increase since shroud uptime is so unreliable because it's coupled to damage taken.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952