Bring back the Pve Reaper

[Aktium.9506]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not thinking of PvP at all for these changes. The thread was about PvE Reaper. Think of instanced PvE in a vacuum for this.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Objectively you can't allow it to trigger on all kind of combo finisher. Which would leave us with trigger on leap finisher only. Which is basically: "trigger on shroud#2"

Nah, if it triggers on just the main combo trigger it means four triggers on Shroud 4 and one on Shroud 2. Let me rephrase it though, I worded it wrongly: Triggers on Ice Field Combo finishers with no ICD instead of its current effect. Can crit again.

 

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Basically a 12.5% damage mod on top of 50% crit chance? The crit chance would have to be reduced. But, yeah that's a good way to make the trait competitive.

Yeah I think the current traits you take for Power Reaper like Soul Eater and Reaper's Onslaught should stay more open world PvE and PvP focused. Having Decimate Defenses be the go-to Instanced PvE trait would be better. It also solves the absolutely cursed crit capping issue since they changed Death Perception. Thief Runes can straight up go kitten themselves.

 

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope! Just no! DC is a good condition damage option and shouldn't be given up for yet another strike damage option that would end up not dealing critical damage for the good sake of PvP. Do you even realize how much damage soul spiral would end up doing with such suggestion? You'd have the whole PvP forum brandishing pitches and forks to burn reaper at the stake while PvE players wouldn't even glance at the trait because it's not worth losing 300 ferocity from reaper onslaught.

Just kill Condi Reaper off at this point. We have Scourge and Harbinger for Condi. Let Reaper be the Power spec. And yes, I do. 1.5x is probably way, way too high. I'm godawful at math but by my estimation these changes would propel Reaper to 45k-ish, which is obviously too high. But you get the idea. The state of Reaper in instanced PvE is abysmal. And Reaper's Onslaught would still be the better trait for PvP and solo play. But it would also make Dread in Spite more attractive by proxy of having a burstier less reliable trait combo option.

 

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Again, the PvP forum would burn in anger if this happened. Best thing that could happen to executioner's scythe would be for it's damage to come back while the stun is replaced by a daze. The ideal solution would be to give a stomp effect to the skill to justify it's name.

I mean like I said. This could all be adjusted for PvP. I think it should be a Freeze though. It always felt like it should have been. Maybe it would fit better on Chilled to the Bone though. I also think skills like Overload Earth and Infusing Terror should return to being Breakbars instead of Stability like they were in the HoT beta.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

Reaper needs a 50% damage boost, period.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Arianth Moonlight.6453

[Warscythes.9307]

25 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

Reaper needs a 50% damage boost, period.

That would make it do 45-46k dps which would be insane.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

40 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

That would make it do 45-46k dps which would be insane.

yes, and we have no real boons nor real healing or nothing to give in a group. Not to mention no way to escape a fight going south.

[Artificer.3468]

That sounds unreasonable and I say that as a reaper fanboy 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Aktium.9506 said:

Nah, if it triggers on just the main combo trigger it means four triggers on Shroud 4 and one on Shroud 2. Let me rephrase it though, I worded it wrongly: Triggers on Ice Field Combo finishers with no ICD instead of its current effect. Can crit again.

I do think you're forgetting about many combo finisher. Even if reaper only have 1 ice field, it doesn't mean that what you're suggesting isn't way to dangerous to implement in the game. GS2 and GS3 are finishers, Staff1 and staff4 are finishers, putrid explosion (despite how bad it is) is a combo finisher.

If what you suggest for chilling nova come along with what you suggest for deathly chill, you're making shroud 4 into a PvP murder machine. On another hand, the impact in PvE would be, at best, minimal. You're not helping reaper with those kind of change, you're shooting him in the knee.

Fact is that condi reaper curretnly deal as much damage than power reaper in PvE, maybe even a bit more. And that is thanks to deathly chill. It is a good trait in it's current iteration and doesn't need to be changed. Reaper doesn't not need to be pigeonholed into strike damage just like harbinger isn't pidgeonholed into condi damage. I mean, what's your next step? Begging ANet to change harbinger strike damage traits into condi traits because "reaper is the strike damage e-spec"? Will you ask ANet to pigeonhole scourge into supprot because it threaten harbinger's hegemony in term of condition damage then realize that scourge have decent strike damage potential and ask for yet another nerf in order to keep reaper as the only strike damage option?

E-spec are meant to be versatile, they are not meant to be pigeonholed into a single damage type. They are not meant to fill the single role that players want them to fill, they are meant to cover an array of roles. If reaper have an advantage over the other necromancer's specs it's in damage reduction not in strike damage.

[Bookah pls.9352]

9 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

That would make it do 45-46k dps which would be insane.

Just for talking sake here, that's only 3-4k more than the current top benchmarks. If a 50% damage increase is only taking you a few thousand above the top and unrealistic benchmark as a full selfish dps that's kinda sad.

[Aktium.9506]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think you're forgetting about many combo finisher. Even if reaper only have 1 ice field, it doesn't mean that what you're suggesting isn't way to dangerous to implement in the game. GS2 and GS3 are finishers, Staff1 and staff4 are finishers, putrid explosion (despite how bad it is) is a combo finisher.

First of all. You're still thinking too much of PvP. And keep in mind that modifiers can be adjusted, focus on the suggested functionality alone. If you imagine the flow of a Reaper rotation in instanced PvE based on these changes. You could fit in Shroud 4 and GS3 + GS2 into the Ice Field from Shroud 5 only once every other cycle while upkeeping Soul Barbs. You could possibly set it up so you always come out of Shroud into Staff and use Staff 4 + Staff 5 before GS3 + GS2. So we're looking at 6-7 triggers of the reworked Chilling Nova above 50%. Probably around the same under 50% as well when you'd just do Shroud 5 > Shroud 4 > GS2 spam before the Ice Field disappears.

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

If what you suggest for chilling nova come along with what you suggest for deathly chill, you're making shroud 4 into a PvP murder machine. On another hand, the impact in PvE would be, at best, minimal. You're not helping reaper with those kind of change, you're shooting him in the knee.

I think the current DPS traits you take in instanced PvE should stay as they are but be replaced by DPS traits that are less valuable in PvP and in solo PvE play but overall stronger in a proper squad composition. Disassociate this from PvP, please. Assume CMC just sets these modifiers to 0.069 in PvP. The impact in instanced PvE would be bigger than you think especially when they're compounding with the other changes.

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Fact is that condi reaper curretnly deal as much damage than power reaper in PvE, maybe even a bit more. And that is thanks to deathly chill. It is a good trait in it's current iteration and doesn't need to be changed. Reaper doesn't not need to be pigeonholed into strike damage just like harbinger isn't pidgeonholed into condi damage. I mean, what's your next step? Begging ANet to change harbinger strike damage traits into condi traits because "reaper is the strike damage e-spec"? Will you ask ANet to pigeonhole scourge into supprot because it threaten harbinger's hegemony in term of condition damage then realize that scourge have decent strike damage potential and ask for yet another nerf in order to keep reaper as the only strike damage option?

E-spec are meant to be versatile, they are not meant to be pigeonholed into a single damage type. They are not meant to fill the single role that players want them to fill, they are meant to cover an array of roles. If reaper have an advantage over the other necromancer's specs it's in damage reduction not in strike damage.

Have you been reading my post history? Because yes, I'm opposed to this line of thinking. I think Elite Specializations should be specialized heavily towards a certain role. This has been my consistent opinion for years. Every specialization having the option of Condi DPS/Power DPS/Support should not be a thing because it's lazy and causes problems and wastes traits that are going to end up being useless.

If we take Scourge as an example it should have always been a support specialization through and through. The traitline options should just have been a selection from Offensive Semi-Support/Healing & Barrier Support/Boon Support. The fact that Scourge benches 35k DPS disgusts me. It should be brought back to 26k and the barrier values restored to what they were.

In the same way I do actually think Harbinger should not have a power DPS option. I was opposed to the upper three traits in Harbinger from the start. They should be deleted and changed to something else. I said they were either going to be garbage or overtuned to the point of being overpowered before EoD. And that's how they turned out to be. Harbinger is a mess as a whole to be honest. Elixirs and Blight are terribly designed. But that is a whole other discussion.

So yeah I think Reaper should be a Power specialization. One set of traits for raw DPS that needs group support to function properly. One set of traits for self-reliance. And one set of traits for sustain and mobility.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Aktium.9506

[Warscythes.9307]

12 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

yes, and we have no real boons nor real healing or nothing to give in a group. Not to mention no way to escape a fight going south.

You do realize we are talking about PvE reaper right? Escape a fight if it goes south? Everyone dies if things go south, there is no running away. Also boons and healing are covered in PvE by boon givers. Is really not that important.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

3 hours ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

Just for talking sake here, that's only 3-4k more than the current top benchmarks. If a 50% damage increase is only taking you a few thousand above the top and unrealistic benchmark as a full selfish dps that's kinda sad.

Yes, the damage currently is really bad. No it does not mean 50% more dps is justified. 

[Kaladel.1670]

19 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Also boons and healing are covered in PvE by boon givers. Is really not that important.

While 50% may be too much, try seeing this in a "There are limited spots in the team and I need to sell them on taking my Reaper instead of something else" perspective. Why take someone that brings nothing to the group when you can take someone who can? What do you bring to the team when you can't bring utility/boons? And the simple answer to that is "bring more dps than the DPS that bring useful/wanted utility on the side". Is it the only solution? Probably not. But, when you look at it that way, it makes sense for people to want this.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

While 50% may be too much, try seeing this in a "There are limited spots in the team and I need to sell them on taking my Reaper instead of something else" perspective. Why take someone that brings nothing to the group when you can take someone who can? What do you bring to the team when you can't bring utility/boons? And the simple answer to that is "bring more dps than the DPS that bring useful/wanted utility on the side". Is it the only solution? Probably not. But, when you look at it that way, it makes sense for people to want this.

 

Reaper does have 1 free utility slot. This means CPC, spectral grasp, boon corrupt as well as signet of undeath if needed as well as strong breakbar. So no, is not completely useless in terms of utility. This is not to mention that there are different kinds of DPS, reaper for example actually has a passable opening burst with wells and shroud 4. It just falls off a cliff later but burst is incredibly important such as the zhaitan giants on htcm.

 

Also I feel you are vastly overweighing how much people actually care about the class doing extra utility as long as it does its fulfilled purpose. Reaper if buffed to an acceptable level such as 37-38k then nobody would bat an eye if is on the harder content. So if you look at just literally at 2 numbers where 1 does more damage and 1 does less then what you say is true, but in reality it is much more different. There can only be 1 literally best DPS in the game and it definitely should not be reaper.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Axl.8924]

17 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

Reaper does have 1 free utility slot. This means CPC, spectral grasp, boon corrupt as well as signet of undeath if needed as well as strong breakbar. So no, is not completely useless in terms of utility. This is not to mention that there are different kinds of DPS, reaper for example actually has a passable opening burst with wells and shroud 4. It just falls off a cliff later but burst is incredibly important such as the zhaitan giants on htcm.

 

Also I feel you are vastly overweighing how much people actually care about the class doing extra utility as long as it does its fulfilled purpose. Reaper if buffed to an acceptable level such as 37-38k then nobody would bat an eye if is on the harder content. So if you look at just literally at 2 numbers where 1 does more damage and 1 does less then what you say is true, but in reality it is much more different. There can only be 1 literally best DPS in the game and it definitely should not be reaper.

The goal to some is to be the best but in my opinion to accepted is just to have 37k DPS at least why? because being too far behind is bad and creates stigmas versus a class and it creates toxicity.

[Warscythes.9307]

4 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

The goal to some is to be the best but in my opinion to accepted is just to have 37k DPS at least why? because being too far behind is bad and creates stigmas versus a class and it creates toxicity.

Yes I think be too far behind like right now is bad and it should be buffed to acceptable levels. No Reaper should not be in the best dps spec in the game in PvE especially at 45k. Post this anywhere else and you get laughed out the room. I know we are on the necro forums but come on.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

13 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Reaper should not be in the best dps spec in the game

Reaper should have the best melee DPS in the game, period.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

Reaper should have the best melee DPS in the game, period.

No it should not, I would think classes like sword weaver should do more damage. You are going to get support here because we are in the necro forum, post this opinion literally anywhere else and see how people feel about it. It definitely should not be the best melee dps in the game.

 

Also in case you are confused because you somehow seem to be mixing with PvP or WvW sometimes, this is about PvE or more specifically instance PvE.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

in case you are confused

lol, Reaper doesn't need extra damage in PvP/WvW.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

4 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

No it should not, I would think classes like sword weaver should do more damage. You are going to get support here because we are in the necro forum, post this opinion literally anywhere else and see how people feel about it. It definitely should not be the best melee dps in the game.

 

Also in case you are confused because you somehow seem to be mixing with PvP or WvW sometimes, this is about PvE or more specifically instance PvE.

 

I would think that with a name like yours, you'd be down with reapers all the way.

Just saying.

 

Anyways, I don't think Weaver needs to do more damage with sword... staff however...

What I do think weaver needs is more toughness, or ways of getting it.

 

The way you are comparing both classes though, it's like comparing Death Metal to Mozart.

I would think that you would have grasped the concept of Reaper by now.

 

You cannot put an Elite Spec out there which the name itself implies Power, Fear, and then not be the ES that deals the most DPS!

You just can't. 

 

Whilst elementalists have access to a vast arsenal, Reapers only have fear and chill mostly, and some other few conditions.

Even then Chill is the only Reapers Ace.

 

Eles inflict almost every condi on the book and gain eveey boon.

Trust me, this coming from an Ele Fan boy.

Do weavers need some tweaking?

Yes, they defo do, but it's not Overall DPS.

At least not superior to Reapers. 

 

As @Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

 

"Reaper needs to be the class that inflicts more dps. Period."

 

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

No it should not, I would think classes like sword weaver should do more damage. You are going to get support here because we are in the necro forum, post this opinion literally anywhere else and see how people feel about it. It definitely should not be the best melee dps in the game.

 

Also in case you are confused because you somehow seem to be mixing with PvP or WvW sometimes, this is about PvE or more specifically instance PvE.

Reaper shouldn't be too far ahead because it still does have sustain and tankiness but at the same time it needs to be higher than a support class because it offers nothing else. I agree that 45k is too much.
Even 40k is prob a bit high for reaper to have and 37-38k is prob just enough that it can be taken.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Warscythes.9307]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

I would think that with a name like yours, you'd be down with reapers all the way.

Just saying.

 

Anyways, I don't think Weaver needs to do more damage with sword... staff however...

What I do think weaver needs is more toughness, or ways of getting it.

 

The way you are comparing both classes though, it's like comparing Death Metal to Mozart.

I would think that you would have grasped the concept of Reaper by now.

 

You cannot put an Elite Spec out there which the name itself implies Power, Fear, and then not be the ES that deals the most DPS!

You just can't. 

 

Whilst elementalists have access to a vast arsenal, Reapers only have fear and chill mostly, and some other few conditions.

Even then Chill is the only Reapers Ace.

 

Eles inflict almost every condi on the book and gain eveey boon.

Trust me, this coming from an Ele Fan boy.

Do weavers need some tweaking?

Yes, they defo do, but it's not Overall DPS.

At least not superior to Reapers. 

 

As @Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

 

"Reaper needs to be the class that inflicts more dps. Period."

 

I do, I was a dervish or warrior endurance scythe main in GW1. I mained power reaper ever since it came out to this day and I have used it in literally every single piece of content except Ankka CM, KO CM and HT CM. It doesn't make me great, but I tried to play it at as many places that I could. I write multiple posts and threads before in this very forum section on my feelings and suggestions to improve the spec. Even I am not delusional enough to say power reaper should be the best melee dps in the game.

 

This class forum is an echo chamber, though to be honest every class forum is. Post this literally anywhere else, reddit, general profession whatever and see people thinks. Yes the spec should be buffed. No, reaper should not be the best melee dps in the game and this is coming from a person who mained a scythe class since GW1. Be a rational player and not just somebody who only looks at your own thing.

 

Look at your post, how does ele "that can do every boon and apply every condi" related to what we are talking about? Is sword weaver suddenly able to do alacrity and quickness that I haven't heard of? How does apply every condi even matter in instance PvE where every condi is already covered by everyone? The only thing you latched onto is the name while completely ignoring how the spec works. If you want power reaper to be the best dps in the game, then it need to have a huge rework and that is just not something on the plate at the moment.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Kulvar.1239]

Being in shroud as reaper is the fun part, but it's been gutted too much in PvE.

The shroud replacing health was a mistake.

Shroud should be like a weapon kit and life force should be purely its fuel.

With heal/utility/elite skills remaining available while using it.

[Obtena.7952]

It's sad people still think this is solved with MOAR DPS. That's not the answer here. It never will be. Not for instanced team content, not for OW. 

Whether we think shroud replacing health is a mistake or not is irrelevant ... that's what it is. That's what it will be. If you don't like that style of 'health-replacement', we have two specs that don't use shroud that way. 

The problem-statement itself isn't even very clear in most of these threads. 

If the problem is not team-desirable, then it needs more team-desirable features.

If the problem is "dropping" from shroud too much, that's a build/player problem because that toolset is there. 

Personally, the problem I have with Reaper is that I feel like the only 'playstyle' of any value when NOT in shroud is the one that simply ensures you hang around to get back into shroud the instant it's available; the non-shroud mode is low-value play. It's the SAME problem v2 Berserker had. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

35 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's sad people still think this is solved with MOAR DPS. That's not the answer here. It never will be. Not for instanced team content, not for OW. 

Whether we think shroud replacing health is a mistake or not is irrelevant ... that's what it is. That's what it will be. If you don't like that style of 'health-replacement', we have two specs that don't use shroud that way. 

The problem-statement itself isn't even very clear in most of these threads. 

If the problem is not team-desirable, then it needs more team-desirable features.

If the problem is "dropping" from shroud too much, that's a build/player problem because that toolset is there. 

Personally, the problem I have with Reaper is that I feel like the only 'playstyle' of any value when NOT in shroud is the one that simply ensures you hang around to get back into shroud the instant it's available; the non-shroud mode is low-value play. It's the SAME problem v2 Berserker had. 

 

Hand over the support tools then to allow reaper to tank and the invulns then. Like i said before if it can't do dps to at least be competitive it needs to be able to compete with tanking and be best at the job.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Hand over the support tools then to allow reaper to tank and the invulns then. Like i said before if it can't do dps to at least be competitive it needs to be able to compete with tanking and be best at the job.

Well, let's not jump to the conclusion being 'tank and invulns' is what is going to make it appeal to teams, especially if it's not necessary for teams to complete content and it's not a real 'role' that Anet has designated they are balancing classes or design content around.

 

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's sad people still think this is solved with MOAR DPS. That's not the answer here. It never will be. Not for instanced team content, not for OW. 

Whether we think shroud replacing health is a mistake or not is irrelevant ... that's what it is. That's what it will be. If you don't like that style of 'health-replacement', we have two specs that don't use shroud that way. 

The problem-statement itself isn't even very clear in most of these threads. 

If the problem is not team-desirable, then it needs more team-desirable features.

If the problem is "dropping" from shroud too much, that's a build/player problem because that toolset is there. 

Personally, the problem I have with Reaper is that I feel like the only 'playstyle' of any value when NOT in shroud is the one that simply ensures you hang around to get back into shroud the instant it's available; the non-shroud mode is low-value play. It's the SAME problem v2 Berserker had. 

More damage will definitely solve most of the problem. It has properties such as grasp, opening burst, boon strip, aoe blind field, projectile absorb etc because you have 1 open utility. Functionality reaper is fine. I'd advocate for other changes because there's plenty of completely useless skills and traits, but generally reaper has the toolset, it just need to do the main job of a dps which is to do dps.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Warscythes.9307