Tactical reload nerf for PvE entirely unnecessary, why was this done?!

[Ori.9716]

Quote

• Tactical Reload: This skill now only recharges bladesworn skills instead of all warrior ammunition skills.

Why was this done for PvE?????? This really hurts the build I found most fun to play, which features "Shake it off" and "For Great Justice", it also REALLY hurts a dedicated healer shoutsworn...
I understand this change for PvP and WvW, but why PvE too??

To be completely clear, this change affected the following skills:

 

• Bolas (Physical)
• Kick (Physical)
• Shake it off (Shout)
• For Great Justice (Shout)
• On my mark (Shout)
   

This does not in any way hurt bladesworns damage output. Not at all, not in the least. None of these skills are used on mainline Bladesworn DPS or Bladesworn Quickness DPS builds.

This change ONLY hurts shoutsworn healers, open world builds that used shouts for self healing, and maybe some other niche builds. This change was, in my opinion, completely unnecessary... a pointless nerf.

Again, I agree with this nerf for PvP and WvW. I understand nerfing the ability to AoE stun break 3 times, down to 2 times. That makes sense. but WHY was this also applied to PvE in a PvP focused balance patch????

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Geoff Fey.1035]

Tactical Reload was way overtuned by recharging all Warrior skills.

Like, to the point where without it recharging non-Bladesworn skills it was literally the only thing making most Bladesworn builds that don't use Armaments and the Shoutsworn build in its entirety viable.

That was covering up the various issues inside the Bladesworn spec, so by having this removed it'll mean they can re-evaluate and shuffle around the pieces of the Elite Spec without as much spillover to the Core side, and vice versa so they can revamp Shout-healer builds or provide a different form of support (a la Paragon style).

There'll be an update in November so that might have some compensation. It just means you won't have SIO/FGJ as readily, but a lot of other Warrior changes were recently put in place so you might not need them as much!

 

[StrangeArt.2756]

Unless they do some improvements to BS during CD in NOV, as you do very little damage between dragon trigger (so tactical reload was actually useful here), I will maybe hang up my warrior boots forever and just move to my necro going forward. No point in them almost always stepping back the Warrior usage.

[Ori.9716]

1 hour ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

There'll be an update in November so that might have some compensation

Hopefully the changes here address this issue, because as it is, I feel like bladesworn has very few options for self healing... the self healing from applying might to yourself isn't enough to sustain, and tying your self healing to dragon trigger via Adrenal health in the defense line means giving up a lot of damage, and having no self healing in between dragon slashes... its not great. (Also Adrenal health is appearantly bugged, and only heals you if you hit something, despite it stating it heals on 'adrenaline spent')

And again, shoutsworn healer relied on tactical reload to compete with other healer options, and even with that, it was probably the weakest main healer... its kinda garbage tier now, until they do something to improve it.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Kayberz.5346]

I haven't gotten a chance to log in yet, but the way they worded the change, it implies that it now resets the cooldown on ALL bladesworn abilities,  not just ammunition abilities, which would mean it resets the cooldown on dragonspike mine as well. If that is the case, this is a potentially another huge buff to dps bladesworn and possibly a buff to pvp bladesworn builds (that dont use shouts)

Can anyone verify if its possible to chain 3 dragonslashes back to back in quick succession for massive burst/cc by doing:

Dragonslash > dragonspike mine >tactical reload > dragonslash >dragonspike mine> dragonslash

(This would require full flow and positive flow generation to fully utilize the 3rd dragonslash in pve)

Edited October 4, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[Ori.9716]

22 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

the way they worded the change, it implies that it now resets the cooldown on ALL bladesworn abilities, 

No. It specifically says all bladesworn AMMO skills. Dragonmine is not an ammo skill. Tested in game too, it does not. This is purely a nerf, with no benefits.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Kayberz.5346]

9 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

No. It specifically says all bladesworn AMMO skills. Dragonmine is not an ammo skill. Tested in game too, it does not. This is purely a nerf, with no benefits.

Ah , thought so

But no the patch notes does NOT specify ammo skills, it just says bladesworn skills. but i assume the actual ingame tooltip does

Edited October 4, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[Ori.9716]

1 hour ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Tactical Reload was way overtuned by recharging all Warrior skills.

I think this statement is factually wrong.

Tactical reloads offensive power was not touched. The raidsworn build uses all bladesworn utility skills anways. This nerf only hurt bladesworns utility and build diversity. There are no skills that it previously affected that made bladesworn more powerful, this change only affects Bolas, and Shouts.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

It also completely destroyed QuickHealShout Warrior, which was one of the only alternatives to Firebrand in PvE, the others being Herald and Scrapper. Granted, this was a raid-only build and was never used in 5man content as it wasn't efficient enough to carry the entire encounter, but it was still useful.

 

Also because it no longer resets rifle skills, hybrid melee/ranged Bladesworn is effectively dead, and we're now forced to always play as fully melee even in open-world.

 

This just wasn't a good change all around.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, Ori.9716 said:

Why was this done for PvE?????? This really hurts the build I found most fun to play, which features "Shake it off" and "For Great Justice", it also REALLY hurts a dedicated healer shoutsworn...
I understand this change for PvP and WvW, but why PvE too??

To be completely clear, this change affected the following skills:

 

• Bolas (Physical)
• Kick (Physical)
• Shake it off (Shout)
• For Great Justice (Shout)
• On my mark (Shout)
   

This does not in any way hurt bladesworns damage output. Not at all, not in the least. None of these skills are used on mainline Bladesworn DPS or Bladesworn Quickness DPS builds.

This change ONLY hurts shoutsworn healers, open world builds that used shouts for self healing, and maybe some other niche builds. This change was, in my opinion, completely unnecessary... a pointless nerf.

Again, I agree with this nerf for PvP and WvW. I understand nerfing the ability to AoE stun break 3 times, down to 2 times. That makes sense. but WHY was this also applied to PvE in a PvP focused balance patch????

Bladesworn should never exited in the first place. And especially not in the Mess it currently is/was.

It NEEDS a rework to get its own niche + not be totally worthless from a class design viewpoint.

Anet put themself in a corner. They overbuffed its Self Healing via shouts just to cover the ridiculously failed design Bladesworn is.

But that made it crazy OP in PvP. This nerf NEEDED to happen so they can rework it later.

 

I have no idea what ever the duck they want to make out of this dog pile of a Elite Spec.

It serves no purpose. Nobody wanted that. NOBODY!

 

Again. BLADESWORN SHOULD HAVE NEVER EXISTED! Whoever came up with the idea .... i wont get any further.

But... DID NOBODY ON ANETS SIDE LOOKED AT IT AND PUT A VETO DOWN!?!?! HOW!?!?

 

I should stop here. I dont want another 5month of not playing GW2 just because how mad i am about this Elite Spec.

 

 

 

 

[Ori.9716]

1 minute ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Bladesworn should never exited in the first place. And especially not in the Mess it currently is/was.

It NEEDS a rework to get its own niche + not be totally worthless from a class design viewpoint.

How to tell someone you don't play bladesworn without telling them you don't play bladesworn.

They are INCREDIBLY strong DPS, but their best DPS builds have no self swiftness and no self healing, so those builds are relegated to raids and other organized group content where a healer is present.

This change to Tactical reload (along with the new bugs introduced in this patch) only hurt bladesworns shout based builds, which are the shoutsworn healer, and the self healing open world sustain build.

I dont think they intended this nerf to those builds/playstyles... all they needed to do was seperate this change to only affect PvP and WvW and it would be totally A-Ok

[Kayberz.5346]

6 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Bladesworn should never exited in the first place. And especially not in the Mess it currently is/was.

It NEEDS a rework to get its own niche + not be totally worthless from a class design viewpoint.

Anet put themself in a corner. They overbuffed its Self Healing via shouts just to cover the ridiculously failed design Bladesworn is.

But that made it crazy OP in PvP. This nerf NEEDED to happen so they can rework it later.

 

I have no idea what ever the duck they want to make out of this dog pile of a Elite Spec.

It serves no purpose. Nobody wanted that. NOBODY!

 

Again. BLADESWORN SHOULD HAVE NEVER EXISTED! Whoever came up with the idea .... i wont get any further.

But... DID NOBODY ON ANETS SIDE LOOKED AT IT AND PUT A VETO DOWN!?!?! HOW!?!?

 

I should stop here. I dont want another 5month of not playing GW2 just because how mad i am about this Elite Spec.

 

 

 

 

"I speak for everyone, my extremely subjective and biased opinion is fact" 🤡🤡🤡

Edited October 4, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[REMagic.8937]

2 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

but their best DPS builds have no self swiftness and no self healing

 

2 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

How to tell someone you don't play bladesworn without telling them you don't play bladesworn.

😄

In general you are right, but Bladesworn does have self-sustain in its DPS build. Mending Might triggers 20 times when you enter F2.

Edited October 4, 2022 by REMagic.8937

[Ori.9716]

10 minutes ago, REMagic.8937 said:

 

😄

In general you are right, but Bladesworn does have self-sustain in its DPS build. Mending Might triggers 20 times when you enter F2.

Mending might is a joke. Wanna know how much health that gives you on a full zerker build?
69 * 20 = 1,380 health
Thats about 5% of your total health.
And you dont even get that all at once, its per charge created while in Dragon Trigger.
Even using dragon mine to double that healing over the course of 5-6 seconds, thats not even enough to sustain you in open world content. It's almost entirely negligible.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Kayberz.5346]

16 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

Mending might is a joke. Wanna know how much health that gives you on a full zerker build?
69 * 20 = 1,380 health
Thats about 5% of your total health.
And you dont even get that all at once, its per charge created while in Dragon Trigger.
Even using dragon mine to double that healing over the course of 5-6 seconds, thats not even enough to sustain you in open world content. It's almost entirely negligible.

Just pointing out that if you really care about sustain on bladesworn there is a trait that basically full heals you every time you use dragonslash

 

You cant expect to have your cake and eat it too

Having the insane amount of damage/burst bladesworn has comes at the cost of sustain if you're optimizing for pure dps

Edited October 4, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[Ori.9716]

12 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Just pointing out that if you really care about sustain on bladesworn there is a trait that basically full heals you every time you use dragonslash

The problem is still the same:
It takes away sustainable healing, and replaces it with slow Heal over time, which is not just... not good.
And the healing is backloaded, you have to use a fully charged dragon trigger before you start healing over time. also if you take that trait, you give up your only defiance break, and become susceptible to losing all your damage to block/blind. 

 

I also tried out Adrenal Health in the defense line to see if that'd be a good alternative to shout healing in open world content... its not... it heals 5985 over 15 seconds, or 339 health per second... its too slow to sustain you like shouts do.

Also to be clear, I'm talking only about PvE, not PvP or WvW balance.


In small open world engagements, by the time you do a 10 charge dragon trigger, the fight is over. That 1 hit kills veterans, and even sometimes elites. The shout healing still works in these cases, but the PvE TR nerf hurts longer engagements like world bossing, fractals, meta events, etc.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Kayberz.5346]

2 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

The problem is still the same:
It takes away sustainable healing, and replaces it with burst healing, which is not just... not good.
its burst healing on couldown that requires other mechanics to function. also if you take that trait, you give up your only defiance break, and become susceptible to losing all your damage to block/blind. 

 

I also tried out Adrenal Health in the defense line to see if that'd be a good alternative to shout healing in open world content... its not... it heals 5985 over 15 seconds, or 339 health per second... its too slow to sustain you like shouts do.

Also to be clear, I'm talking only about PvE, not PvP or WvW balance.

 

It honestly just sounds like you're complaining that bladesworn isn't an all powerful god

 

In group play there is no reason for you to need anymore self sustain than your own heal skill as a pure dps, and bladesworns heal slot is not part of its rotation so it should always be available when needed

[Ori.9716]

3 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

It honestly just sounds like you're complaining that bladesworn isn't an all powerful god

I specified what I'm complaining about.

Bladesworn's only viable self healing option for open world/small group content was nerfed by 33% for no reason. (as well as their main-healer build. 33% nerf. For no reason.)

Edited October 4, 2022 by Ori.9716

[Kayberz.5346]

7 minutes ago, Ori.9716 said:

I specified what I'm complaining about.

Bladesworn's only viable self healing option for open world/small group content was nerfed by 33% for no reason. (as well as their main-healer build. 33% nerf. For no reason.)

Its not their "only" viable self healing option, its just the one that was the best at the time

 

Bladesworn is plenty durable in solo/small group content even when speced for pure damage

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

47 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Bladesworn should never exited in the first place.

 

☒ Should not have existed

☑ Should not have existed in its current state

 

There's room for bladesworn to be designed well, but if you're going to take the drawbacks of playing warrior to an extreme like that, it becomes immensely difficult to balance, as we've seen. There's going to need to be a fine positioning between how much telegraph leads to how much damage increase with the hitboxes for DT as they are, and how much sustain is too much sustain for a class that needs to eat damage to use its core mechanic. The concept on paper was fine, but executing it in a competitive environment is going to be painful if it leans even slightly too far in either direction.

 

11 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

It honestly just sounds like you're complaining that bladesworn isn't an all powerful god

 

In group play there is no reason for you to need anymore self sustain than your own heal skill as a pure dps, and bladesworns heal slot is not part of its rotation so it should always be available when needed

 

I'm honestly quite surprised you're still looking at this from a skill-oriented viewpoint and haven't gone raving mad like the bandwagoners who were just shouting off cooldown and being carried by stability. I misjudged you. 

[anbujackson.9564]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

It also completely destroyed QuickHealShout Warrior, which was one of the only alternatives to Firebrand in PvE, the others being Herald and Scrapper. Granted, this was a raid-only build and was never used in 5man content as it wasn't efficient enough to carry the entire encounter, but it was still useful.

 

Also because it no longer resets rifle skills, hybrid melee/ranged Bladesworn is effectively dead, and we're now forced to always play as fully melee even in open-world.

 

This just wasn't a good change all around.

That "build" was never viable in the first place. I dont even know why people say this just because mukluk put out a video in which he actively was deadweight to his squad.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

That "build" was never viable in the first place. I dont even know why people say this just because mukluk put out a video in which he actively was deadweight to his squad.

It was actively run in statics because it offered the highest possible DPS of a healer, due to the insane scaling Warrior gets on shouts being up to 4.5k+ per cast, the brokenness of Tactical Reload on top of it, and having a 100% Quickness build with a single skill (Banner of Tactics), Bladesworn's OP DPS (albeit hindered by healing gear) and it also brought a small amount of barriers and group Stability when necessary.

 

It was no more dead-weight than any other support that isn't Firebrand, and in some ways its capabilities competed directly with Firebrand when well-played.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[GrizzlyTank.3145]

Great so they gutted more healers than specter in favor of pvp...

[KryTiKaL.3125]

8 minutes ago, GrizzlyTank.3145 said:

Great so they gutted more healers than specter in favor of pvp...

You maybe want to enlighten the class as to where people were taking Bladesworn as a healer over literally anything else that performs that role?

[DaniTheHero.6318]

Warrior is once again unplayable in sPVP and anyone who says otherwise is dishonest.

The changes to Spellbreaker and Berserker aren't nearly enough to make them viable, and BladeSworn is literally worthless in sPVP now.
You can't sustain yourself as much as you could before, and your signature move is one of the most telegraphed  move in the game, so it doesn't matter if it's "Strong" if everyone avoids it unless there's A LOT of visual noise happening in that moment.

Every other class has constant range and CC and with stuff like Mechanist that also deals an enourmous amount of damage, and a Bladesworn pretty much can't fight in any scenario that isn't a direct and continued 1vs1.

This of course ignoring the fact that there's really no real objective reason to play warrior in PVE instead of pretty much any other class.
Across core and 3 ELITE's, warrior has the least roles among all classes, and it doesn't even excell in the few roles that it does hold as someone does those better. You "can" reach TOP DPS on Certain bosses as a Bladesworn specifically, but it requires far, far far more proper execution that the close seconds and thirds that would just button mash with little effort or care for rotation.

The ONLY reason I haven't already switched to a different class like Guardian or Engineer is because I have invested a lot of time and gems into the warrior who is my first character. 100% Map completion across all areas, full story completion, bag , build and template slots and so on.

Edited October 6, 2022 by DaniTheHero.6318