An old friend: condi revenant and why this balance patch is not helping it

[dronte.3416]

Hi all,

I think it's important to point out that ArenaNet did well to revisit some old, out-of-favor specs. However, I feel that condi rev changes kind of missed the point.

 

In my opinion there are currently 3 big issues that makes condi rev lackluster:

1. The whole playstyle was built around Resistance originally. Now, after the changes, the build lost it's main strength and can actually be easily melted even by condi builds. The reason for that is that there is almost no condi removal or counterplay to condi at the moment, excluding Facet of Nature on Demon. There is basically no reason to have this amount of Resistance either.

2. Condi rev just does not fit in any role. As a duelist, there are several specs that outsustain / outperform condi rev (cata, vindi, etc). As a teamfighter, it lacks any significant damage especially that condi removal is so easy to access, while condi rev's condi application is below par (both in terms of variety and stacks apart from Torment). If you are extremely good and the enemy is terrible, you can stack up 10+ torment stacks in a duel, but that's about it. If there is a support in the enemy team, just reroll to something else.

3. The actual damage output with condi rev (even if you go with Diabolic Inferno and Acolyte of Torment) is also sub-par. Torment being the main damaging factors just brings down the build. Look at mirage or even virtuoso.. At least the Torment changes helped a bit..

 

My suggestions, feel free to discuss / cherrypick.

1. Revisit condi application. Torment should not be touched, both duration and application is decent when played well (with the exception of #2 and #3). However, it would make sense to revisit some traits for additional cover condis. Thinking about bleeding / confusion etc.

2. The Echoing Eruption  change (now 2 ammo) does not help the build in terms of usefulness or playstyle, just makes it even more spammy than it was. I honestly think adding more and longer torment / burning on Axe 2-3 would have made more sense, but only if it's with 1 ammo again.

3. Add more torment stacks to Abyssal Chill trait. I mean seriously - it's a great synergy, but what can we do with 1 stack of torment? It was nerfed in 2017 but since it's completely useless and condi / powercreep got out of hand, it seriously needs a buff.

4. Additionally to boon removal, I suggest adding condi transfer (x1 or x2) to Banish Enhancement.

OR rework Demonic Defiance to remove /transfer 1 condition when using a Legendary Demon Skill.

5. Revisit - Buff axe 4. Currently it's so weak it barely does anything. Probably it would make sense to push the power damage on this a bit, as it can easily can get out of hand (unblockable).

 

Obviously, these shouldn't all be done at the same time (that would be op), just some ideas how to carefully push it back to at least viable tier. What do you think?

[vilesoldier.9826]

It's wild that there are people that can recognize that Condi Rev's biggest weakness is its condition management, and yet decide to only suggest changes to its damage/utility (which happens to be its biggest strength)

 

Suggestions 1,3,4, and 5 are completely busted, like you're taking Crev's strongest traits/utilities and sending them to the stratosphere.

 

1) Confusion? Crev doesn't need that to return.

3) Abyssal Chill torment buff? Holyyy

4) Banish Enchantment condi transfer?? So you're telling me you want the unblockable aoe utility to deal damage + 3 boonrip + 3 chill + 6 torment + condi transfer.....on a 30 energy skill no less....

5) Axe 4 buff because it's weak? Atp you're trolling.

 

The only things Condi Rev needs are an answer to poison and more dark aura integration. The damage is still good, and resistance is still very much useful.

Edited October 6, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:04 PM, dronte.3416 said:

Hi all,

I think it's important to point out that ArenaNet did well to revisit some old, out-of-favor specs. However, I feel that condi rev changes kind of missed the point.

 

In my opinion there are currently 3 big issues that makes condi rev lackluster:

1. The whole playstyle was built around Resistance originally. Now, after the changes, the build lost it's main strength and can actually be easily melted even by condi builds. The reason for that is that there is almost no condi removal or counterplay to condi at the moment, excluding Facet of Nature on Demon. There is basically no reason to have this amount of Resistance either.

2. Condi rev just does not fit in any role. As a duelist, there are several specs that outsustain / outperform condi rev (cata, vindi, etc). As a teamfighter, it lacks any significant damage especially that condi removal is so easy to access, while condi rev's condi application is below par (both in terms of variety and stacks apart from Torment). If you are extremely good and the enemy is terrible, you can stack up 10+ torment stacks in a duel, but that's about it. If there is a support in the enemy team, just reroll to something else.

3. The actual damage output with condi rev (even if you go with Diabolic Inferno and Acolyte of Torment) is also sub-par. Torment being the main damaging factors just brings down the build. Look at mirage or even virtuoso.. At least the Torment changes helped a bit..

 

My suggestions, feel free to discuss / cherrypick.

1. Revisit condi application. Torment should not be touched, both duration and application is decent when played well (with the exception of #2 and #3). However, it would make sense to revisit some traits for additional cover condis. Thinking about bleeding / confusion etc.

2. The Echoing Eruption  change (now 2 ammo) does not help the build in terms of usefulness or playstyle, just makes it even more spammy than it was. I honestly think adding more and longer torment / burning on Axe 2-3 would have made more sense, but only if it's with 1 ammo again.

3. Add more torment stacks to Abyssal Chill trait. I mean seriously - it's a great synergy, but what can we do with 1 stack of torment? It was nerfed in 2017 but since it's completely useless and condi / powercreep got out of hand, it seriously needs a buff.

4. Additionally to boon removal, I suggest adding condi transfer (x1 or x2) to Banish Enhancement.

OR rework Demonic Defiance to remove /transfer 1 condition when using a Legendary Demon Skill.

5. Revisit - Buff axe 4. Currently it's so weak it barely does anything. Probably it would make sense to push the power damage on this a bit, as it can easily can get out of hand (unblockable).

 

Obviously, these shouldn't all be done at the same time (that would be op), just some ideas how to carefully push it back to at least viable tier. What do you think?

Just roll back the changes prior to the big rework to resistance and bring it back as a unique boon that only mallyx provides and let it be what it was intended to be; Let it be the ultimate condi counter. Because like before power builds would easily be able to shred a condi-rev if build properly and played well. 

[Shao.7236]

21 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

The only things Condi Rev needs are an answer to poison and more dark aura integration. The damage is still good, and resistance is still very much useful.

Been saying that for nearly 3 years, I have made several posts. Including a big one, they care to properly put posts in their respective category on the forums but aren't bothered to read them.

Inspiring Reinforcement, Forced Engagement and Coalescence of Ruins NEEDS to get addressed as well.

Don't forget to fix Ventari being unable to use skills in mid-air or the elite making the tablet disappear while jumping.

[Dahkeus.8243]

This patch was actually pretty amazing for condi rev simply by returning the weapon swap sigil functionality on legend swap.  
 

The Torment changes were also a straight buff in PvP.

 

The changes to the Corruption changes were pointless, sure, but they’re at least less crappy than they were.  

That being said, the patch put condi renegade as very competitive in PvE damage (it was already decent) and made condi herald a good roamed in WvW.  I can’t speak to it being enough to change much beyond that and sure, more help is needed, particularly for Mallyx legend, but the patch was still a buff.

[Sansar.1302]

Condi damage should not be powerful in wvw or any pvp setting in guild wars 2 as it is spammy and unfun game play for both players imo

 

Guild wars 2 pvp shine when power damage is the meta

[Loco.4561]

On 10/7/2022 at 5:11 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

Condi damage should not be powerful in wvw or any pvp setting in guild wars 2 as it is spammy and unfun game play for both players imo

 

Guild wars 2 pvp shine when power damage is the meta

But it still exists as a playstyle that *some* enjoy.  Comes down to preference, even with some professions having access to condi-removal, Condi burst still doesn't have as much to mitigate damage as power builds do against strike damage.  I was taking over 4K damage ticks from a burn warrior in WvW the other day, I was literally dead before my healthbar even moved.  Power builds can't do that to me.

[Sansar.1302]

3 hours ago, Loco.4561 said:

But it still exists as a playstyle that *some* enjoy.  Comes down to preference, even with some professions having access to condi-removal, Condi burst still doesn't have as much to mitigate damage as power builds do against strike damage.  I was taking over 4K damage ticks from a burn warrior in WvW the other day, I was literally dead before my healthbar even moved.  Power builds can't do that to me.

This is exactely the opposit of what condi builds should do 😞

They would be ok if they lasted longer and did not so mutch dmg , but then a few classes need to have alot less cleansing( scrapper and a couple more)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:04 PM, dronte.3416 said:

Hi all,

I think it's important to point out that ArenaNet did well to revisit some old, out-of-favor specs. However, I feel that condi rev changes kind of missed the point.

 

In my opinion there are currently 3 big issues that makes condi rev lackluster:

1. The whole playstyle was built around Resistance originally. Now, after the changes, the build lost it's main strength and can actually be easily melted even by condi builds. The reason for that is that there is almost no condi removal or counterplay to condi at the moment, excluding Facet of Nature on Demon. There is basically no reason to have this amount of Resistance either.

2. Condi rev just does not fit in any role. As a duelist, there are several specs that outsustain / outperform condi rev (cata, vindi, etc). As a teamfighter, it lacks any significant damage especially that condi removal is so easy to access, while condi rev's condi application is below par (both in terms of variety and stacks apart from Torment). If you are extremely good and the enemy is terrible, you can stack up 10+ torment stacks in a duel, but that's about it. If there is a support in the enemy team, just reroll to something else.

3. The actual damage output with condi rev (even if you go with Diabolic Inferno and Acolyte of Torment) is also sub-par. Torment being the main damaging factors just brings down the build. Look at mirage or even virtuoso.. At least the Torment changes helped a bit..

 

 

Welcome to the same club Mirage has been in for a while lol. DPS nerfed, can be out sustained and what was a great damaging build/class was nerfed in ways it makes the class/builds moot and condi build is becoming sub par. Unfortunately this is something that I fear wont get touched enough to make it strong again like Mirage (Mainly DPS)

[captrowdy.9561]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:11 PM, Sansar.1302 said:

Condi damage should not be powerful in wvw or any pvp setting in guild wars 2 as it is spammy and unfun game play for both players imo

 

Guild wars 2 pvp shine when power damage is the meta

Please go play another game 

[Dahkeus.8243]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:04 PM, dronte.3416 said:

Hi all,

I think it's important to point out that ArenaNet did well to revisit some old, out-of-favor specs. However, I feel that condi rev changes kind of missed the point.

 

In my opinion there are currently 3 big issues that makes condi rev lackluster:

1. The whole playstyle was built around Resistance originally. Now, after the changes, the build lost it's main strength and can actually be easily melted even by condi builds. The reason for that is that there is almost no condi removal or counterplay to condi at the moment, excluding Facet of Nature on Demon. There is basically no reason to have this amount of Resistance either.

2. Condi rev just does not fit in any role. As a duelist, there are several specs that outsustain / outperform condi rev (cata, vindi, etc). As a teamfighter, it lacks any significant damage especially that condi removal is so easy to access, while condi rev's condi application is below par (both in terms of variety and stacks apart from Torment). If you are extremely good and the enemy is terrible, you can stack up 10+ torment stacks in a duel, but that's about it. If there is a support in the enemy team, just reroll to something else.

3. The actual damage output with condi rev (even if you go with Diabolic Inferno and Acolyte of Torment) is also sub-par. Torment being the main damaging factors just brings down the build. Look at mirage or even virtuoso.. At least the Torment changes helped a bit..

 

1) Condi rev has very little to do with Resistance anymore.  The best builds don't even take the resistance traits since the top traits that throw damage do better anyways.  Condi removal is better now that they returned the sigil swap mechanic to legend swap, but it's not particularly great against condi.  In WvW, runes can make up for this either from Leadership or Antitoxin.

2) In PvP, it has a role of brawler/DPS, but it's not terribly great there because of the amulet/rune restrictions.  In WvW, it makes a terrific roamer because of how well it all scales with Cele stats.

3) In WvW (because of point above), the damage is pretty great actually.  As long as you're not messing up your sigil swap cooldowns with your legend swaps and know how to combo your fire fields with sword, there's no lack for damage anymore.