Scourge is Actually Pretty Balanced in SPvP

[Westenev.5289]

I'm not fond of fighting against damage types which consist of wide aoe spreads, since area denial has always been a difficult thing for me to deal with. Personally, I would be happier if condi as a whole was delete from the game, as condi tends to consist of wide aoe fields - while with power, I can judge distances, attack types and attack patterns in real time.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

Its a plague of the GW2 player base to complain about things that they are fully in control of.

-Scourage is OP.-Spellbreaker is OP.-Firebrand is unkillable.-Mesmer can stack confusion/torment so much so fast.-Holosmith hits so hard.

Oh you have a problem with scourage? Instead of complaining you can't beat it, have you tried changing your build? Have you tried not standing in all the AOE or taking more condition clears? Maybe the answer is going for a more burst heavy class/build to kill them before they kill you?You get provided all these options but somehow you get stuck in a mindset that your build is optimal and nothing should be able to beat you so easily. Balance means that something probably does really well against you or counters you and vice versa.

Realize that you're only optimal in a meta; Out of a meta, you're just another build to be countered.

-Firebrand typically beats scourages.--Core power longbow ranger beats scourages.-Shatter mesmer mirage/core beats scourages condition mesmer chrono/mirage scepter can beat scourages.--I imagine a spellbreaker can probably give a scourage a run for its money.--Thief can kill scourages.-Core dps guardian can kill scourages.

Just because your specific build you're probably playing sub-optimally doesn't beat the scourage, doesn't mean its unbalanced. It means you're on the down-slope and lack the ability to climb fast enough. If you refuse all options, its not a balance issue, its a player skill issue.

Crying about balance... this is probably the best balance ever seen in this game. You just have to open your eyes wide enough to see it.

[FyzE.3472]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:Its a plague of the GW2 player base to complain about things that they are fully in control of.

-Scourage is OP.-Spellbreaker is OP.-Firebrand is unkillable.-Mesmer can stack confusion/torment so much so fast.-Holosmith hits so hard.

Oh you have a problem with scourage? Instead of complaining you can't beat it, have you tried changing your build? Have you tried not standing in all the AOE or taking more condition clears? Maybe the answer is going for a more burst heavy class/build to kill them before they kill you?You get provided all these options but somehow you get stuck in a mindset that your build is optimal and nothing should be able to beat you so easily. Balance means that something probably does really well against you or counters you and vice versa.

Realize that you're only optimal in a meta; Out of a meta, you're just another build to be countered.

Firebrand typically beats scourages.Core power longbow ranger beats scourages.Shatter mesmer mirage/core beats scourages condition mesmer chrono/mirage scepter can beat scourages.I imagine a spellbreaker can probably give a scourage a run for its money.Thief can kill scourages.Core dps guardian can kill scourages.

Just because your specific build you're probably playing sub-optimally doesn't beat the scourage, doesn't mean its unbalanced. It means you're on the down-slope and lack the ability to climb fast enough. If you refuse all options, its not a balance issue, its a player skill issue.

Crying about balance... this is probably the best balance ever seen in this game. You just have to open your eyes wide enough to see it.

Aah yes, all those poor scourge waiting to be countered. All six of them in a match... How dare we say it's OP!

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@FyzE.3472 said:

Aah yes, all those poor scourge waiting to be countered. All six of them in a match... How dare we say it's OP!

The most i recall seeing is 2 on the same team. I'm pretty sure we won because we had a Firebrand? Does that make Firebrand OP? What about 2 Firebrands? Try any heavy power cleaves and the Firebrand is going to die. Does that make power cleaves OP? They would die to mirage. Does that make mirage OP? They would die to scourage.

Woah, its crazy when there is a balance of power.

[Cynz.9437]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

Aah yes, all those poor scourge waiting to be countered. All six of them in a match... How dare we say it's OP!

The most i recall seeing is 2 on the same team. I'm pretty sure we won because we had a Firebrand? Does that make Firebrand OP? What about 2 Firebrands? Try any heavy power cleaves and the Firebrand is going to die. Does that make power cleaves OP? They would die to mirage. Does that make mirage OP? They would die to scourage.

Woah, its crazy when there is a balance of power.

You can deny it all you want, but if one team has scourge and other doesn't usually the match is decided already.Even if you are good (it is an assumption), you won't be able to save your team most of the time from this plague no matter what build you run.

[FyzE.3472]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

Aah yes, all those poor scourge waiting to be countered. All six of them in a match... How dare we say it's OP!

The most i recall seeing is 2 on the same team. I'm pretty sure we won because we had a Firebrand? Does that make Firebrand OP? What about 2 Firebrands? Try any heavy power cleaves and the Firebrand is going to die. Does that make power cleaves OP? They would die to mirage. Does that make mirage OP? They would die to scourage.

Woah, its crazy when there is a balance of power.

What is this balance you speak of? There are professions that are literally unplayable in this game. Do you know about this or you just ignore this fact because your main/s can be player played for now?

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Cynz.9437 said:You can deny it all you want, but if one team has scourge and other doesn't usually the match is decided already.Even if you are good (it is an assumption), you won't be able to save your team most of the time from this plague no matter what build you run.

That is 100% wrong and the worst mentality. That you're just out classed and the game is imbalanced. You can see on various streams (and maybe one day in your matches) people without scourages winning matches because a scourage doesn't define a win. If you're too dense to believe otherwise then you're going to continue to lose. A scourage doesn't just auto win, you can beat it, you just might have to stop facerolling for a second or actively change yourself to counter them in someway.

@FyzE.3472 said:

What is this balance you speak of? There are professions that are literally unplayable in this game. Do you know about this or you just ignore this fact because your main/s can be player played for now?

You can play every profession in this game to legend. If you think otherwise then you are blind. We have nacked power revs and kill shot warriors s/f elementalists s/d thieves and zerker druids getting legend.

Your ability to do well on a class defines viability.

[Cynz.9437]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:You can deny it all you want, but if one team has scourge and other doesn't usually the match is decided already.Even if you are good (it is an assumption), you won't be able to save your team most of the time from this plague no matter what build you run.

That is 100% wrong and the worst mentality. That you're just out classed and the game is imbalanced. You can see on various streams (and maybe one day in your matches) people without scourages winning matches because a scourage doesn't define a win. If you're too dense to believe otherwise then you're going to continue to lose. A scourage doesn't just auto win, you can beat it, you just might have to stop facerolling for a second or actively change yourself to counter them in someway.

@FyzE.3472 said:

What is this balance you speak of? There are professions that are literally unplayable in this game. Do you know about this or you just ignore this fact because your main/s can be player played for now?

You can play every profession in this game to legend. If you think otherwise then you are blind. We have nacked power revs and kill shot warriors s/f elementalists s/d thieves and zerker druids getting legend.

Your ability to do well on a class defines viability.

That is why i said "usually". Surely, team of good players without scourge will win vs team of scrubs with scourge but on average matches are pretty uneven as it is and people do charge simply like this into point and die or don't focus or... all the other common things that happen in yoloq and been mentioned countless times on pvp forums.I find it funny that you claim other people faceroll when scourge atm is way too rewarding for simply facerolling all match and you try to defend it apparently? My point stands, you may be a good player but not necessary your teammates which will die to scourge. Surely, you can build to counter scourge and kill it, but by the time you do it (especially if they have support) half of your team probably gonna be in downed state and rally the said scourge which i have seen countless times.

Also, despite the popular opinion flaming doesn't make anyone look good.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Cynz.9437 said:That is why i said "usually". Surely, team of good players without scourge will win vs team of scrubs with scourge but on average matches are pretty uneven as it is and people do charge simply like this into point and die or don't focus or... all the other common things that happen in yoloq and been mentioned countless times on pvp forums.I find it funny that you claim other people faceroll when scourge atm is way too rewarding for simply facerolling all match and you try to defend it apparently? My point stands, you may be a good player but not necessary your teammates which will die to scourge. Surely, you can build to counter scourge and kill it, but by the time you do it (especially if they have support) half of your team probably gonna be in downed state and rally the said scourge which i have seen countless times.

Also, despite the popular opinion flaming doesn't make anyone look good.

So you're basing balance off of players inability to play the game properly? That's not a balance issue. That's a player skill issue.

[Sindrener.1592]

@reukies.6418 said:

@bluri.2653 said:thats true, if both sides have a scourge team with fb wins.

This is how I know people have no idea what they are talking about. FB+scourge vs Scourge no FB has a good chance on winning if the FB is stupid enough to give scourge all the boons in the world. And I have seen many FB's who do just that.

Nearly everyone who plays below Plat (sometimes even in plat) play their class the same way every game without thinking of counters or what they are doing wrong.

lmao

[Cynz.9437]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:That is why i said "usually". Surely, team of good players without scourge will win vs team of scrubs with scourge but on average matches are pretty uneven as it is and people do charge simply like this into point and die or don't focus or... all the other common things that happen in yoloq and been mentioned countless times on pvp forums.I find it funny that you claim other people faceroll when scourge atm is way too rewarding for simply facerolling all match and you try to defend it apparently? My point stands, you may be a good player but not necessary your teammates which will die to scourge. Surely, you can build to counter scourge and kill it, but by the time you do it (especially if they have support) half of your team probably gonna be in downed state and rally the said scourge which i have seen countless times.

Also, despite the popular opinion flaming doesn't make anyone look good.

So you're basing balance off of players inability to play the game properly? That's not a balance issue. That's a player skill issue.

Ok, let me re-phrase. Bad player on scourge is 1000 more effective than bad player on revenant. Do you really think it is ok?

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Cynz.9437 said:

Ok, let me re-phrase. Bad player on scourge is 1000 more effective than bad player on revenant. Do you really think it is ok?

Yes. The skill floor and ceiling of a class don't determine balance of a game.

[Cynz.9437]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

Ok, let me re-phrase. Bad player on scourge is 1000 more effective than bad player on revenant. Do you really think it is ok?

Yes. The skill floor and ceiling of a class don't determine balance of a game.

It should, imo. Otherwise we have issue that said inexperienced/not so good players get carried by the class into ratings where they don't belong. Because at some point it is not just about the right build but map awareness, teamplay etc. So what happens when they get to those ratings? They get facerolled and get frustrated. It also creates frustrating experience for the players that do belong to those rating because they are effectively 4v5 (if not 3v5). Not to mention it also creates frustrating experience in the lower ranks where said "bad" player on scourge faces equally "bad/good" player on rev.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Cynz.9437 said:

It should, imo. Otherwise we have issue that said inexperienced/not so good players get carried by the class into ratings where they don't belong. Because at some point it is not just about the right build but map awareness, teamplay etc. So what happens when they get to those ratings? They get facerolled and get frustrated. It also creates frustrating experience for the players that do belong to those rating because they are effectively 4v5 (if not 3v5). Not to mention it also creates frustrating experience in the lower ranks where said "bad" player on scourge faces equally "bad/good" player on rev.

The more experienced player can always find a way to win. It can be seen in so many cases of players playing naked, or off-meta specilizations/builds to challenge themselves and still getting to legend.Also a really bad player getting carried by only their class skill floor will not make it very far into the rankings and if they get frustrated when they meet players that require them to turn their brain on, then they will either learn or become stagnant at the rank they belong with that class/build.

[Westenev.5289]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:Just because your specific build you're probably playing sub-optimally doesn't beat the scourage, doesn't mean its unbalanced. It means you're on the down-slope and lack the ability to climb fast enough. If you refuse all options, its not a balance issue, its a player skill issue.

Crying about balance... this is probably the best balance ever seen in this game. You just have to open your eyes wide enough to see it.

For you, maybe. :p It seems your favourite build/class was buffed, whereas I'm struggling to find a build with a role that I feel comfortable with and is actually useful in the current meta. "Git Gud" only really works if you have an invested interest, otherwise I'm more inclined to just play other game modes. I think other people share similar thoughts, which is why PvP numbers went down the drain.

It's not just about killing scourges (at least, for me). It's about whether or not I enjoy playing pvp as a whole, or if I'm only playing for the sake of winning. Using "op" builds you described kind of falls into the latter catagory.

[reukies.6418]

.

[Wolfric.9380]

Guys ... We play a teamgame without a team. Beat double scourge when two of your team don´t communicate and worse, die in the circles in seconds.One teammember can ruin the match and it is very likely that someone is in your team that has a L2P or L2 build/adapt issue. And even more common L2 communicate.Scourge is perfect to abuse this and strong enough to compete at top level too ...

[mulzi.8273]

@reukies.6418 said:

@bluri.2653 said:thats true, if both sides have a scourge team with fb wins.

This is how I know people have no idea what they are talking about. FB+scourge vs Scourge no FB has a good chance on winning if the FB is stupid enough to give scourge all the boons in the world. And I have seen many FB's who do just that.

Nearly everyone who plays below Plat (sometimes even in plat) play their class the same way every game without thinking of counters or what they are doing wrong.

I wish Anet would make a 'taped' spectator mode like they did in GW1. Inexperienced players, or even experienced ones could watch these higher level matches, learn some tricks and actually see skills/synergies in action.

[Abazigal.3679]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

Ok, let me re-phrase. Bad player on scourge is 1000 more effective than bad player on revenant. Do you really think it is ok?

Yes. The skill floor and ceiling of a class don't determine balance of a game.

It should, imo. Otherwise we have issue that said inexperienced/not so good players get carried by the class into ratings where they don't belong. Because at some point it is not just about the right build but map awareness, teamplay etc. So what happens when they get to those ratings? They get facerolled and get frustrated. It also creates frustrating experience for the players that do belong to those rating because they are effectively 4v5 (if not 3v5). Not to mention it also creates frustrating experience in the lower ranks where said "bad" player on scourge faces equally "bad/good" player on rev.

This. It's exactly like i said on my post. Not denying players skill at all, but these builds create bad habits and behaviour. If 5 beginners are given 2 warriors and 2 scourges, they probably will climb to gold 1 in a matter of time. If they're told to play 2 thieves engineers ranger, chances are they will lose almost all their matchs 500-10.Hambow at his time could keep a point, deal big condi damage, and follow anyone on map with no risk. That's not a good way to learn capture points, although it is a good way of winning

[ReaverKane.7598]

I've been playing scourge mostly, and while, yeah it's strong, especially against the "other broken" pvp classes like Spellbreaker and trap DH.There's a few ways to beat it though... The easiest being long ranged attacks. Longbow rangers are my freaking bane. There's simply no options to get a guy that can snipe you from that far. You can try to barrier into the barrage, or los the guy, but if he plays well, you're doomed.Sure you can say i could take wurm or the sand tunnel to get in closer. The problem is, for scourge to work, especially when going vs other scourges, you need a specific kit to deal with that, and that leaves no space for gap closers.Mirages are also pretty broken atm, and are also another class that can quickly burst me.The most common way i die though is actually bad team mates...Because scourge has a bad rep, people tend to focus you, so 70% of my fights end up with me down along with 2-3 of the enemy. And more often than it makes sense that also ends up with one of my team mates trying to tea bag a downed guy while i'm being finished by the enemy team.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Westenev.5289 said:

For you, maybe. :p It seems your favourite build/class was buffed, whereas I'm struggling to find a build with a role that I feel comfortable with and is actually useful in the current meta. "Git Gud" only really works if you have an invested interest, otherwise I'm more inclined to just play other game modes. I think other people share similar thoughts, which is why PvP numbers went down the drain.

It's not just about killing scourges (at least, for me). It's about whether or not I enjoy playing pvp as a whole, or if I'm only playing for the sake of winning. Using "op" builds you described kind of falls into the latter catagory.

99% of what you said was a personal issue not a balance issue that's why you kept saying "whereas i'm/at least for me". You don't balance a game based off an inability of less than optimal players.

Its not the builds that determine your ability to win a game.I don't really care if you're a troll or not, just get out of balance threads so you don't fuck up my game.

[Westenev.5289]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:99% of what you said was a personal issue not a balance issue that's why you kept saying "whereas i'm/at least for me". You don't balance a game based off an inability of less than optimal players.

Its not the builds that determine your ability to win a game.I don't really care if you're a troll or not, just get out of balance threads so you don't kitten up my game.

I lol'd.

I'm here because "your game" doesn't really interest me. Don't you think there's a teeny tiny problem with balancing a game around mechanics that the playerbase either don't understand or can't pull off? But, of course, your next response will be to point towards the door. The door people have already left through.

So please, "just get out of balance threads so you don't kitten up my game". :)

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Westenev.5289 said:

I lol'd.

I'm here because "your game" doesn't really interest me. Don't you think there's a teeny tiny problem with balancing a game around mechanics that the playerbase either don't understand or can't pull off? But, of course, your next response will be to point towards the door. The door people have already left through.

So please, "just get out of balance threads so you don't kitten up my game". :)

Balance =/= player IQ or learning curve.You shouldn't sit in a balance thread and argue otherwise. If you don't want to "get good" then you're not going to be; no matter how much you cry and get the balance changed around your inability to perform well.

[Westenev.5289]

@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:

I lol'd.

I'm here because "your game" doesn't really interest me. Don't you think there's a teeny tiny problem with balancing a game around mechanics that the playerbase either don't understand or can't pull off? But, of course, your next response will be to point towards the door. The door people have already left through.

So please, "just get out of balance threads so you don't kitten up my game". :)

Balance =/= player IQ or learning curve.You shouldn't sit in a balance thread and argue otherwise. If you don't want to "get good" then you're not going to be; no matter how much you cry and get the balance changed around your inability to perform well.

I don't want to "git gud". I want to have fun... And classes like scourge just aren't fun for me.

[Jestrix.6475]

@Jackalrat.5493 Best way to post a gripe, ever. Reminds of a scene from Saving private ryan :DI'm a pleb myself, I haven't even dared into ranked games yet. It seems to me, alchemy rifle engi's and longbow rangers are the best counter to those damn Scourges. I'd be pretty fine with the scourge if their damn circles were smaller. DH traps aer easy to trigger (same with trap rangers) and get out. But them huge circles lingers forever.

On top of that, it seems the survival rate on good Scourges is rediculous. Double healthbar on a class like that is just nuts. Anyway, thanks OP for a jolly good laugh. Back to getting choked to death by them scourges >_<