Scourge is Actually Pretty Balanced in SPvP

[Vague Memory.2817]

This no counterplay culture that has grown in PvP is what is killing it. A scourge dumps more condi on you + others on your team more than cleanses, dodges, and blocks can cope with. Some classes suffer more than others. I just can't take this season seriously when they add a spec like scourge in. People say the best defense is to run away or attack from range, but scourge isn't a warrior they have some pretty nasty long distance skills as well and have a few gap closers. Anet gave up on esports because they couldn't make it work, maybe they should give up on pvp since they don't have a clue about that either.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

@Westenev.5289 said:

I don't want to "git gud". I want to have fun... And classes like scourge just aren't fun for me.

Then make a thread about how not fun they are, not how "unbalanced" they are...

@"Vague Memory.2817" said:This no counterplay culture that has grown in PvP is what is killing it. A scourge dumps more condi on you + others on your team more than cleanses, dodges, and blocks can cope with. Some classes suffer more than others. I just can't take this season seriously when they add a spec like scourge in. People say the best defense is to run away or attack from range, but scourge isn't a warrior they have some pretty nasty long distance skills as well and have a few gap closers. Anet gave up on esports because they couldn't make it work, maybe they should give up on pvp since they don't have a clue about that either.

1: Yes, there is enough condition clear. Druids/FireBrand/Elementalists/Warriors/2: There is lots of counterplay, without counterplay a warrior would NEVER beat a scourage, and yet there are youtube videos and it can be seen ingame and the matchup seems pretty 50/50. If the scourage can't avoid the onslaught for the first minute of the spellbreaker attacking, they lose. If the spellbreaker doesn't kill them fast enough or manage his clears properly, they lose. Which is logical because conditions were designed to win fights over time.3: Scourage is pretty mid ranged and if it uses its gap closer to get near you, its more than likely already have used some cds to get you to run and now it's used an escape (gap closer) to move in, giving you an advantage.

I can't speak for GW2 esports. Too many mistakes have been made to count. But "scourage OP" is not one of them..

[Jackalrat.5493]

"Because you can switch classes, weapons, and builds and eventually barely beat this thing that effortlessly destroys your otherwise viable setup, the game is balanced."

That is a bad argument. When people in WoW pointed out, "Hey, Warlocks are crap right now!" nobody was like, "Yes, but we can all roll rogues at any time, so the game is balanced."

See, Scourges are OP because they don't just counter certain builds, they annihilate them so immediately with little to no counterplay that doesn't involve completely switching classes, in many cases. Guess what? After they get nerfed (and they will, it just might be awhile cause Anet) they will still beat LOTS of things they'll just have to try a little bit.

Oh, also, if you're so comfortable changing classes/builds to optimize all the time, you shouldn't be scared of nerfs. There will still be a big dog on campus, so just switch to that. :P

[Mr Godlike.6098]

From my perspective: most of our pvp population is in Gold and lower and how generally these people play?

Typical start:1.4 guys always go mid.

2. Thief/Mesmer always go close because nobody pushes far at start
3. Everybody Fights ON NODE.

Since from always (4 years I play this game) people from lower ratting MUST fight on node and enemy necro just needs to press every button he has to kill everything. People have this urge to stay together in one tight place, in the middle of 6 red circles...and die...and then repeat. And since main playmaker (mirage/thief) with brust damage and cc went first to cap close... so there no is stealth opening, no team basi, no pressure on necro.

So being necro below platinum is easy life...easy farm. This is almost same discussion like we had with DH. This time you see these aoe's from deeps of hell under you nose...and still you need to jump directly into them...cause when you fight and die on node this means you doing good job.

[Abazigal.3679]

You can switch the point of view. Is it really fair for bronze players to have to do so many stuff ( not from builds since there is no easy counter) in order to beat, not necessarly easily, such easy tactics ?

[Mr Godlike.6098]

@Abazigal.3679 said:You can switch the point of view. Is it really fair for bronze players to have to do so many stuff ( not from builds since there is no easy counter) in order to beat, not necessarly easily, such easy tactics ?

The question is : should anet balance around problems that Platinum + have or based on rest of population that doesn't want to think outside of the box (or node in this case) and it's punished more then ever by playing the same way they played 4 years ago?

I don't defend scourge. My point is: No matter how much scourge will be nerfed still will be to much OP for most of players cause they refuse to adapt to changing meta. This is the almost the same dissuasion we had with DH that didn't die out after so many nerfs till PoF...

And you know what? These DH players still play and farm ranked...they just rerolled scourge and do the same thing.

[Chaith.8256]

Adapting to scourges involves ditching all close range builds that aren't loaded with condition removal. Herald, Engi, Scrapper, Reaper. Gain 1 PoF spec, lose 3+ fairly balanced HoT specs.

Why is this adaptation good for the game

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:Adapting to scourges involves ditching all close range builds that aren't loaded with condition removal. Herald, Engi, Scrapper, Reaper. Gain 1 PoF spec, lose 3+ fairly balanced HoT specs.

Why is this adaptation good for the game

What annoys me the most, is that scourge fills the exact same role that reaper did, it's just that scourge does it way better.

What was reaper used for in HoT? It was a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.What is scourge used for? It's a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.The difference? Scourge has more cleave, more boonrip, and more utility that reaper. And with reaper's LF degen nerfed to 5% in the last patch, you can't even say that reaper is tankier than scourge.

Bonus points in that scourge completely replaced reaper in WvW and PvE as well.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

@Chaith.8256 said:Adapting to scourges involves ditching all close range builds that aren't loaded with condition removal. Herald, Engi, Scrapper, Reaper. Gain 1 PoF spec, lose 3+ fairly balanced HoT specs.

Why is this adaptation good for the game

And your right! I write about problems that people have and could be solved if they seen actually competitive match.

[Chaith.8256]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Adapting to scourges involves ditching all close range builds that aren't loaded with condition removal. Herald, Engi, Scrapper, Reaper. Gain 1 PoF spec, lose 3+ fairly balanced HoT specs.

Why is this adaptation good for the game

What annoys me the most, is that scourge fills the exact same role that reaper did, it's just that scourge does it way better.

What was reaper used for in HoT? It was a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.What is scourge used for? It's a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.The difference? Scourge has more cleave, more boonrip, and more utility that reaper. And with reaper's LF degen nerfed to 5% in the last patch, you can't even say that reaper is tankier than scourge.

Bonus points in that scourge completely replaced reaper in WvW and PvE as well.

Yup. ArenaNet has always tried to put the PoF specs in opposite directions from the HoT predecessors.. Scourge is a glaring contradiction to this, doing everything that Reaper did but covering up to 600 radius worth of ground.

I know Necromancer's core and elite specs are horrendously balanced with each other. I personally want Scourge gets its class F abilities and trait interaction severely buffed on barrier support & defensive utility, ideally resembling a kind of "blood-condi Druid" or "blood-condi Scrapper", after big nerfs to the offensive threat of class F abilities & Path of Corruption trait interaction.

I want Reaper to be big D damage in PvE, and reclaim the boon corruption teamfight utility it was in HoT, becoming a more aggressive variant on Scourge but achieving similar results.

Core Necro should get a metabattle "Great" tier equivalent build in PvP, possibly through some strong signet utility & trait buffs & perhaps a small DPS facelift to Death Shroud. Perhaps core Necro could even rival the power of Reaper in PvP but remain the long range variant.

My 2c on what could have been.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

It might be a good idea to look at builds that don't give boons..I now it's a far out idea, and difficult to create with most professions due to PCbut it's an idea.

Would like this for reapers tbh.

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Adapting to scourges involves ditching all close range builds that aren't loaded with condition removal. Herald, Engi, Scrapper, Reaper. Gain 1 PoF spec, lose 3+ fairly balanced HoT specs.

Why is this adaptation good for the game

What annoys me the most, is that scourge fills the exact same role that reaper did, it's just that scourge does it way better.

What was reaper used for in HoT? It was a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.What is scourge used for? It's a teamfighting build used for it's boonhate and cleave.The difference? Scourge has more cleave, more boonrip, and more utility that reaper. And with reaper's LF degen nerfed to 5% in the last patch, you can't even say that reaper is tankier than scourge.

Bonus points in that scourge completely replaced reaper in WvW and PvE as well.

Yup. ArenaNet has always tried to put the PoF specs in opposite directions from the HoT predecessors.. Scourge is a glaring contradiction to this, doing everything that Reaper did but covering up to 600 radius worth of ground.

I know Necromancer's core and elite specs are horrendously balanced with each other. I personally want Scourge gets its class F abilities and trait interaction severely buffed on barrier support & defensive utility, ideally resembling a kind of "blood-condi Druid" or "blood-condi Scrapper", after big nerfs to the offensive threat of class F abilities & Path of Corruption trait interaction.

I want Reaper to be big D damage in PvE, and reclaim the boon corruption teamfight utility it was in HoT, becoming a more aggressive variant on Scourge but achieving similar results.

Core Necro should get a metabattle "Great" tier equivalent build in PvP, possibly through some strong signet utility & trait buffs & perhaps a small DPS facelift to Death Shroud. Perhaps core Necro could even rival the power of Reaper in PvP but remain the long range variant.

My 2c on what could have been.

Reaper doesn't really need to reclaim anything, the patch may have killed condi reaper, but post-patch marauder reaper has all of the lethality that put reaper on most tourney teams in HoT. Anecdotally (platinum rank) reaper is quite competitive as long as the other team doesn't have a scourge. Yeah sure reaper is glassed and can't 1v1 to save its own life, but it's quite strong. It just has the slight issue of being countered by scourge, and also rendered redundant by scourge. The only real change reaper needs is that the shroud decay should probably be 4% rather than 5%, because right now the degen is so high that you often can't even complete combos before getting kicked out of shroud from degen.

I would certainly love to see scourge as a true support, unfortunately the devs seem to have issues coming up with necro designs that don't involve boonrip. Seriously why do all of the punishment skills boonrip? Is anet really expecting necros to use our portal to boonrip people? It's just random collateral boonrip that is just tacked onto scourge because necro = boonrip

[Chaith.8256]

@Crinn.7864 said:

Reaper doesn't really need to reclaim anything, the patch may have killed condi reaper, but post-patch marauder reaper has all of the lethality that put reaper on most tourney teams in HoT. Anecdotally (platinum rank) reaper is quite competitive as long as the other team doesn't have a scourge. Yeah sure reaper is glassed and can't 1v1 to save its own life, but it's quite strong. It just has the slight issue of being countered by scourge, and also rendered redundant by scourge. The only real change reaper needs is that the shroud decay should probably be 4% rather than 5%, because right now the degen is so high that you often can't even complete combos before getting kicked out of shroud from degen.

I would certainly love to see scourge as a true support, unfortunately the devs seem to have issues coming up with necro designs that don't involve boonrip. Seriously why do all of the punishment skills boonrip? Is anet really expecting necros to use our portal to boonrip people? It's just random collateral boonrip that makes no sense.

I guess the semantics become for Reaper to reclaim a role in teamfights alongside supports by removing Scourge from the role its currently in, I didn't really detail any further buffs to Reaper (in PvP).

Scourge becoming more of a barrier heavy duelist/revive utility is more what I think is feasible without tearing the whole spec down and rebuilding (won't happen.) Pure support I would have loved, the traitline is nothing like that, though.

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

Reaper doesn't really need to reclaim anything, the patch may have killed condi reaper, but post-patch marauder reaper has all of the lethality that put reaper on most tourney teams in HoT. Anecdotally (platinum rank) reaper is quite competitive as long as the other team doesn't have a scourge. Yeah sure reaper is glassed and can't 1v1 to save its own life, but it's quite strong. It just has the slight issue of being countered by scourge, and also rendered redundant by scourge. The only real change reaper needs is that the shroud decay should probably be 4% rather than 5%, because right now the degen is so high that you often can't even complete combos before getting kicked out of shroud from degen.

I would certainly love to see scourge as a true support, unfortunately the devs seem to have issues coming up with necro designs that don't involve boonrip. Seriously why do all of the punishment skills boonrip? Is anet really expecting necros to use our portal to boonrip people? It's just random collateral boonrip that makes no sense.Scourge becoming more of a barrier heavy duelist/revive utility is more what I think is feasible without tearing the whole spec down and rebuilding (won't happen.) Pure support I would have loved, the traitline is nothing like that, though.

I can't really see scourge being a duelist, the shade mechanic really doesn't fit well with dueling, given that dueling is often a game of mobility. Scourge as a decapper certainly, but scourge is already a over-the-top decapper already and doesn't need any help there. Core necro could make a interesting duelist particularly given that core necro is already heavy in single target effects.

As for revive/utility that would be great, but it would require Anet to give the class a defensive buff which is unlikely given that every single balance patch since 2015 has followed the pattern of remove defenses and buff offense, PTSD from the bunker meta I would assume.

[witcher.3197]

@Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046 said:It might be a good idea to look at builds that don't give boons..I now it's a far out idea, and difficult to create with most professions due to PCbut it's an idea.

Would like this for reapers tbh.

That's just impossible now, every class has some passive boon application from traits, sometimes even minor ones that can't be turned off like Dueling Mesmer's Fury/Vigor.

Even Scourge has boons because it converts some condis to boons.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I admit that I stopped maining PvP a while ago (stopped partway into S3), however my guild needs PvP potions so 2 friends and I partied up (non ranked). We have all Expansions, whoever I went in with P/P vanilla engi, there was a medi trapper guard (vanilla), and a vanilla S/D thief.

I was able to 1v1 a scourge (they weren't bad) and 2v1 a scourge/thief (or daredevil) on a point. Knowing how to fight a scourge (as I have tried it in WvW) made it easier and my build was meant to fight them as far as clears go (HGH), trying to out condi a scourge when not a scourge yourself can be a task (if you want to survive).

Scourge is strong I will say. That 7k+ barrier I seem to come across is strong, however to say they are OP is wrong. He should have decimated me through DoT (and he almost did). They had 2 scourges and 1 gave me a gg afterwards (1st game played in pvp). Their pressure is stronger than mine. People saying they are OP need to learn. I am (again) not saying they are not strong, however they are def killable, even vs condis. In order to get good, you must fight against good, despite any weaknesses you have to them.

[Sindrener.1592]

Very balanced xD

[Kuya.6495]

@"Mr Godlike.6098" said:From my perspective: most of our pvp population is in Gold and lower and how generally these people play?

Typical start:1.4 guys always go mid.

2. Thief/Mesmer always go close because nobody pushes far at start
3. Everybody Fights ON NODE.

Since from always (4 years I play this game) people from lower ratting MUST fight on node and enemy necro just needs to press every button he has to kill everything. People have this urge to stay together in one tight place, in the middle of 6 red circles...and die...and then repeat. And since main playmaker (mirage/thief) with brust damage and cc went first to cap close... so there no is stealth opening, no team basi, no pressure on necro.

So being necro below platinum is easy life...easy farm. This is almost same discussion like we had with DH. This time you see these aoe's from deeps of hell under you nose...and still you need to jump directly into them...cause when you fight and die on node this means you doing good job.

Tbh, while that is perfectly true, it doesn't feel nice to feel you have to play x2 to x3 better than the enemy necro to avoid getting nuked while your allies get zapped like flies.

You feel like fucking goku dodging all those damn red circles while the rest of the enemy team is busy chucking harpoons or some shit at you. And your teammates? Krillin. That's what.

[Volrath.1473]

I am dead serious! I'm shelving my thief and i'm jumping on the god mode wagon. i had a lvl 80 boost from PoT and i'm using it to boost a necro to play ranked.every match there are 4 necros and 2 times there were 5. the team that has the most wins, that simple!Ill queue with the thief and b4 it starts switch to necro! boom guaranteed win xD

[Vitali.5039]

@Volrath.1473 said:I am dead serious!i had a lvl 80 boost from PoT and i'm using it to boost a necro to play ranked.Are you serious?

[Volrath.1473]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Volrath.1473 said:I am dead serious!i had a

lvl 80 boost

from PoT and i'm using it to boost a necro

to play ranked

.Are you serious?

100% :)it will be my main so ill need to unlock all abilities for wvwvw, unfortunately thieves are not even allowed into squads, all i do is roam and scout...ENOUGH i'm going necro all the way.

i understand you point, my bad, i was not clear enough.

[Vitali.5039]

@Volrath.1473 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Volrath.1473 said:I am dead serious!i had a

lvl 80 boost

from PoT and i'm using it to boost a necro

to play ranked

.Are you serious?

100% :)

Well, you don't have to be lv80 to play ranked :/If you want to roll a FOTM (or FOTExpansion) profession you could just use a low level character, maybe also hitting lv10 to farm black lions key once a week with the personal story.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I guess nobody likes playing rangers/thieves anymore. Scourges are such easy targets; it's almost criminal how fast they die unchallenged vs a ranged class.

I guess the mindset of players whom hate scourges are: If I can run into it while pressing #1 to win, it needs to be nerfed

It also seems like there is so much hate for scourge due to the amount of boon corrupt.. did anyone ever possibly consider the following... Don't use boons... and perhaps structure your party around direct damage vs boons out the ying yang? Scourges can't corrupt what doesn't exist now can they.......

[Vitali.5039]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:I guess nobody likes playing rangers/thieves anymore. Scourges are such easy targets; it's almost criminal how fast they die unchallenged vs a ranged class.

I guess the mindset of players whom hate scourges are: If I can run into it while pressing #1 to win, it needs to be nerfed

It also seems like there is so much hate for scourge due to the amount of boon corrupt.. did anyone ever possibly consider the following... Don't use boons... and perhaps structure your party around direct damage vs boons out the ying yang? Scourges can't corrupt what doesn't exist now can they.......

Seems like you guess wrong.I guess you are a Joko's vassal :)

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

ummm no terrible scourge who don't use F1 are prone to range but not those who know how to LoS and play properly.

Also teef as range class...we're talking about P/P meme or a bigger meme called deadeye?