Mechanist is dividing the Community

[zeyeti.8347]

1 minute ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

What build are you running? I just tried it and got 21k at 1200 on my Mechanist (which is still pretty nuts for autoattacks from 1200 range, don't get me wrong.) Granted, there is no way I'd have all of these buffs on me if I wasn't in the blob of people standing on top of the boss, but still.

When you are away from the boss (except some bosses , like ht cm) the blob mostly follow you like on ankkha cm , and still the boon duration is so huge atm you can go away 20 secs and still come back with 10 secs left on all your primary boons (prot. quick. swift. might 25 , fury , alac.) . With all buff on golem afk with 1 turret it's +- 26k.

[Vordrax.5243]

29 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

When you are away from the boss (except some bosses , like ht cm) the blob mostly follow you like on ankkha cm , and still the boon duration is so huge atm you can go away 20 secs and still come back with 10 secs left on all your primary boons (prot. quick. swift. might 25 , fury , alac.) . With all buff on golem afk with 1 turret it's +- 26k.

If you're moving with the crowd you're probably not AFK and you're actively engaging with the encounter, but point taken on the boon duration. Is the rifle turret adding 5k DPS or am I missing something else?

EDIT: I was getting 15k with the Golem put away. Still haven't tried with the turret yet though. I did remember I'm running Pack runes in my Power set and not Scholar, so that is probably lowering it a fair amount.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[zeyeti.8347]

There is a difference with just moving  and doing your rotation while moving , and the turret is just because i am lazy on the grenade kit , it must maybe add a bit less than 1k. With mech you can just slide left and right , forward backward with auto unable , your mech sitting on the boss ignoring 75% of the mechanic , also note that your mech deals like 9k damage alone , with auto unable on all F skills. Scholar runes are the best , dont forget that with big boomer and your signet you are healing about 500hp sec , allowing you easily with a support getting over the 90% hp treshhold , golem runes are great too but the golem spawn can be really annoying .

Edited October 24, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Vordrax.5243]

29 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

There is a difference with just moving  and doing your rotation while moving

This isn't specifically a you thing, but why is there some strawman that people keep arguing against, even though it has nothing to do with what you're replying to? There's a difference between moving with a ranged weapon and moving with a melee weapon, there's a difference between moving as a power build and moving as a condi build. @AliamRationem.5172 kept obsessively insisting that I wanted Mechanist to be broken even though my comments have been entirely about DPS insecurity and elitism. It is just absurd how forum culture has made it so much more annoying to have a conversation about anything because people seem to be unable to communicate without reducing someone else to a static position, whether they hold it or not. Anyways.

 

If we're acknowledging that you can't play any meaningful encounter while you're AFK, then stating that you can do that damage while AFK is kind of irrelevant. The concerns about efficacy at range or while moving are more general design concerns and don't really have anything specifically to do with Mechanist beyond the spec highlighting those issues. Mechanist is certainly not the only spec that can be effective at range. Scourge, for example, can basically just hit every button on cooldown and get very good performance at range - and again, I contend that "mindlessly hit all buttons" isn't more skillful than "only hit a few buttons tactically."

 

I do reject your claim that the Mech is pulling 9k DPS without some additional evidence. My testing earlier showed approximately 6k with a full power build. I'm not sure what you could be doing to increase that by 50%. And having a full elite spec contribute 6k DPS (plus whatever Power Signet is giving, and the honestly overloaded Shift Signet for mobility) isn't exactly crazy. I'm definitely willing to acknowledge I might be missing something, so feel free to offer any suggestions here.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[Infusion.7149]

50 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

If we're acknowledging that you can't play any meaningful encounter while you're AFK, then stating that you can do that damage while AFK is kind of irrelevant. The concerns about efficacy at range or while moving are more general design concerns and don't really have anything specifically to do with Mechanist beyond the spec highlighting those issues. Mechanist is certainly not the only spec that can be effective at range. Scourge, for example, can basically just hit every button on cooldown and get very good performance at range - and again, I contend that "mindlessly hit all buttons" isn't more skillful than "only hit a few buttons tactically."

 

I do reject your claim that the Mech is pulling 9k DPS without some additional evidence. My testing earlier showed approximately 6k with a full power build. I'm not sure what you could be doing to increase that by 50%. And having a full elite spec contribute 6k DPS (plus whatever Power Signet is giving, and the honestly overloaded Shift Signet for mobility) isn't exactly crazy. I'm definitely willing to acknowledge I might be missing something, so feel free to offer any suggestions here.

Having tested this in the past after the patch, it's quite obvious you are not using standard conditions and boons. All you need to do is use snowcrows' build and autocast all skills. 

Your claim is easily proven with minimal effort: Power Mechanist Build | Engineer Builds | Snow Crows
DPS log is https://dps.report/rCMQ-20221005-232816_golem
2nd tab Player Summary >>> Jade Mech
Total Mech damage = 1,114,479

(9550 DPS)

I'm assuming you at least have ascended weapon (+5% weapon strength over exotic) and gear. If you aren't using food/utility that could be the reason, same for if you don't use +5 power infusions.

Before you go "it's only on the golem" have a look at this example in a PUG:

with this log https://dps.report/PNTX-20220920-170544_gors
Jade Mech C1 by log recording player= 9.1K DPS
Jade Mech C1 by some other players = 7K + with the Rifle players doing 10K DPS with one 11K DPS
Exceeds 10K DPS in Phase 1 pre split
 

5 man Gorseval "organized"
https://dps.report/isB1-20221001-214056_gors
Rifle mech #1 Jade Mech C1 =  9.2K DPS
Rifle mech #2 / #3 Jade Mech C1 = 8.9K DPS

As for your complaint about scourge, it's been nerfed slightly already and the autoattack DPS is nowhere even close. Nor does it have the 5 target cleave of rifle mechanist. 

If your logic is "oh scourge is easy too" then that's a legitimate observation. The difference is scourge still has a relatively low DPS floor if played poorly as evidenced by people in PUGs. There's low intensity builds for every class by the way.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Vordrax.5243]

17 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Having tested this in the past after the patch, it's quite obvious you are not using standard conditions and boons. All you need to do is use snowcrows' build and autocast all skills. 

Actually I'm using all conditions and all boons just because I'm lazy, if anything that should make the numbers higher.

 

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm assuming you at least have ascended weapon (+5% weapon strength over exotic) and gear. If you aren't using food/utility that could be the reason, same for if you don't use +5 power infusions.

I do have an ascended weapon with Force and Impact. I haven't put any power infusions into this though, and I'm only using cake, so that might be contributing to it. Still, I'm sitting here watching my mech do 5,931 DPS fully specced out, Ascended weapon with sigils, all Ascended armor (with Pack runes granted), all Ascended trinkets except for the Legendary amulet. If you're telling me that the infusions, the rune change, and better food/utility adds that much DPS, then so be it.

 

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

DPS log is https://dps.report/rCMQ-20221005-232816_golem

Ah, so they're including Jade Buster (which is the Mechanist elite skill, not a passive source of damage) and Rocket Punch (which is an effect on the Engineer's 3 skill, again, not something done while AFK.) I'm assuming it's fair game to discard those from these logs since they are effectively the Engineer's damage, not the Mech's.

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As for your complaint about scourge

That was not a complaint.

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If your logic is "oh scourge is easy too" then that's a legitimate observation. The difference is scourge still has a relatively low DPS floor if played poorly as evidenced by people in PUGs. There's low intensity builds for every class by the way.

I'm not making an argument, I'm making conversation. People are turning it into an argument by trying to argue against a strawman when they quote me. So my "logic" is not "oh, scourge is easy too." My "logic" is actually my concern about your next statement which is reflective of the general sentiment that I am opposed to:

 

Is the issue that inexperienced people are doing too well with Mechanist? Because I'm pretty sure that a "PUG playing poorly" is going to be the type of player running around in full Ascended gear with maxed out infusions and expensive food/utilities and will not be reaching the DPS we're referring to here. My preference would be for ANet to intentionally design the specs and encounters in such a way that there is a reasonable baseline that every profession has some way of achieving, and intentionally build in risk/reward via intentionally designed skill loops that feel intuitive to play and loop together. And for ANet to intentionally ban people who are insulting new/inexperienced/disabled players by calling the spec they enjoy braindead, implying that the players of such are too dumb to play anything else, etc.

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Actually I'm using all conditions and all boons just because I'm lazy, if anything that should make the numbers higher.

 

I do have an ascended weapon with Force and Impact. I haven't put any power infusions into this though, and I'm only using cake, so that might be contributing to it. Still, I'm sitting here watching my mech do 5,931 DPS fully specced out, Ascended weapon with sigils, all Ascended armor (with Pack runes granted), all Ascended trinkets except for the Legendary amulet. If you're telling me that the infusions, the rune change, and better food/utility adds that much DPS, then so be it.

 

Ah, so they're including Jade Buster (which is the Mechanist elite skill, not a passive source of damage) and Rocket Punch (which is an effect on the Engineer's 3 skill, again, not something done while AFK.) I'm assuming it's fair game to discard those from these logs since they are effectively the Engineer's damage, not the Mech's.

That was not a complaint.

I'm not making an argument, I'm making conversation. People are turning it into an argument by trying to argue against a strawman when they quote me. So my "logic" is not "oh, scourge is easy too." My "logic" is actually my concern about your next statement which is reflective of the general sentiment that I am opposed to:

 

Is the issue that inexperienced people are doing too well with Mechanist? Because I'm pretty sure that a "PUG playing poorly" is going to be the type of player running around in full Ascended gear with maxed out infusions and expensive food/utilities and will not be reaching the DPS we're referring to here. My preference would be for ANet to intentionally design the specs and encounters in such a way that there is a reasonable baseline that every profession has some way of achieving, and intentionally build in risk/reward via intentionally designed skill loops that feel intuitive to play and loop together. And for ANet to intentionally ban people who are insulting new/inexperienced/disabled players by calling the spec they enjoy braindead, implying that the players of such are too dumb to play anything else, etc.

You're not using the right sigil and you have a massive DPS loss from ferocity of Pack rune (with no damage bonus) vs Scholar which has 225 ferocity = 15% crit before the +5% damage bonus > 90% HP.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Vordrax.5243]

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're not using the right sigil.

According to the logs you linked me, the Mech doesn't proc Sigil of Air, so I'm not sure what difference that would make?

EDIT: If anything, if Sigil of Force impacts Mech damage at all, then I'm getting more damage out of my sigils than the build above.

 

EDIT 2:

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

you have a massive DPS loss from ferocity of Pack rune (with no damage bonus) vs Scholar which has 225 ferocity = 15% crit

So, just so we're on the same page, we both know that the Mech no longer inherits Ferocity from the Engineer since the October 4th patch, correct? Or am I misunderstanding the patch notes and the fact that the trait no longer says it gives ferocity to the Mech? I will acknowledge the 5%, but then I get some of that back due to my Sigil of Impact since the Mech can't proc Sigil of Air.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

According to the logs you linked me, the Mech doesn't proc Sigil of Air, so I'm not sure what difference that would make?

EDIT: If anything, if Sigil of Force impacts Mech damage at all, then I'm getting more damage out of my sigils than the build above.

 

EDIT 2:

So, just so we're on the same page, we both know that the Mech no longer inherits Ferocity from the Engineer since the October 4th patch, correct? Or am I misunderstanding the patch notes and the fact that the trait no longer says it gives ferocity to the Mech? I will acknowledge the 5%, but then I get some of that back due to my Sigil of Impact since the Mech can't proc Sigil of Air.

That is only for the power trait (Variable Mass Distributor)

You forgot Mechanical Genius - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)  

And the ferocity is counted before any multiplicative damage modifiers.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Vordrax.5243]

38 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You forgot Mechanical Genius - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)  

Ah gotcha, I stand corrected, so it gets 50% Ferocity instead of none (cap at 1500.)

 

I threw my build into gw2skills.net to compare to the one from SnowCrows:

Mine

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlxy0YvMXWMOuLvxPA-zRIYRUwXG1mAVUAqtM9IA-e

SC

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlxy0YvMXWMOuLvxPA-zRIYRUwXG1mAVUA2eAClXDFOjAA-e

 

Alright. So let's compare some numbers.

With the infusions and the better food/utility, they have 2871 power vs my 2597, but according to Mechanical Genius, the base power can't go over 2250, which should be reached when the Engineer hits 2500 power, so that most likely doesn't affect the Mech. It says "boons and buffs" but the food and utility buffs are on the Engineer, not the Mech.

They have 1255 Ferocity vs my 1000, which has a 50% contribution to the Mech thanks to Mechanical Genius, so the Mech should have ~128 extra Ferocity, or ~8.5% increased critical damage.

But they have 1960 Precision (50.71% crit) vs my 2125 Precision (58.57% crit.) Precision gets 100% contribution to the Mech, and even with Fury it should still not be crit capped, so their build has a decrease of ~8.04% critical chance. Neither is over the 2500 cap, so both numbers are relevant.

Now, based on the logs above, the DPS for the active abilities that got attributed to the Mech (aka the "non-AFK" abilities) contributed ~1700 DPS. So the claim that the AFK Mech is doing 9k DPS there is already false. That puts the difference between my Mech and their Mech at ~1300 DPS. Is that the 5% Scholar? Is 8.5% critical damage that much better than 8% critical chance when you're not capped? Maybe there is some positional thing going on as well that I'm not considering.

Either way, none of that addresses my earlier points that you skipped for your own expedience, which is pretty disrespectful since I took the time to respond to you in full.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243
Slight clarification

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

This isn't specifically a you thing, but why is there some strawman that people keep arguing against, even though it has nothing to do with what you're replying to? There's a difference between moving with a ranged weapon and moving with a melee weapon, there's a difference between moving as a power build and moving as a condi build. @AliamRationem.5172 kept obsessively insisting that I wanted Mechanist to be broken even though my comments have been entirely about DPS insecurity and elitism. It is just absurd how forum culture has made it so much more annoying to have a conversation about anything because people seem to be unable to communicate without reducing someone else to a static position, whether they hold it or not. Anyways.

 

If we're acknowledging that you can't play any meaningful encounter while you're AFK, then stating that you can do that damage while AFK is kind of irrelevant. The concerns about efficacy at range or while moving are more general design concerns and don't really have anything specifically to do with Mechanist beyond the spec highlighting those issues. Mechanist is certainly not the only spec that can be effective at range. Scourge, for example, can basically just hit every button on cooldown and get very good performance at range - and again, I contend that "mindlessly hit all buttons" isn't more skillful than "only hit a few buttons tactically."

 

I do reject your claim that the Mech is pulling 9k DPS without some additional evidence. My testing earlier showed approximately 6k with a full power build. I'm not sure what you could be doing to increase that by 50%. And having a full elite spec contribute 6k DPS (plus whatever Power Signet is giving, and the honestly overloaded Shift Signet for mobility) isn't exactly crazy. I'm definitely willing to acknowledge I might be missing something, so feel free to offer any suggestions here.

And i dont know either the build you are using but i just tried atm , the mech is dealing 7.5-8k on it's own, so i overtuned a bit , mb . 

And i am not playign afk , i just ment to say (it is just the way i talk i really like sarcasm) that mech pew pew is the build who deals the more damage with the less effort , you won't find something in the game who deals the same damage as him just auto attacking. And even you are dealing 6k with your bot only it's 6k 100% of the fight timewise , also the mech has an huge advantage as support , it's the only support who ahs a remote "moving flag" for boons , your mech alone , while you are away from the group ,

can keep alac , fury , might 25 , some stab , some prot. and a decent barrier pulsating area x2 +passiv , i find it personnaly too much , mechs feel like anet pulled all the effort in the mechanist .

i personaly dont want a huge nerf on the mech , damage is still too high on such an easy build , and just look at yoru f2 while playing supp. : crisis zone : give some prot , some alac , some stab , aegis , breakstun for 5 allies and clean 3 condi ..... thats too much for one skill , feels like firebrand f3 - 5 on steroids ...

[zeyeti.8347]

you are using wrong runes  , you get no benefit from the precision at all , your mech take 100% of your precision , dont forget you have two traits that increase your crit chance at +30% , high caliber and hematic focus , so with full zerk you are at 50,7..% chance crit , with fury you are at 75% with those two traits it's 105 % , ofc when you are far away you go down to 90% crit. chance ... not a real big deal , scholar runes increase highly your ferocity , and not talking about the 5% damage , if you look at your runes you only benefit from the +175 power , the rest is literally useless  in endgame content ofc , boon duration ? for what ? playing that in OW is alright i guess

Dont wonder there is the little damage difference you are talking about.

the only thing i didnt check is if mech procs some trait like sharpshooter .

Edited October 24, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Vordrax.5243]

13 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

-snip-

I think we agree then, the main thing is that someone will pull out the Mechanist and insult Mechanist players, and then compare it to the Elementalist. But based on how the game is now, it's pretty clear that the Elementalist needs its core design principles reevaluated and updated to the game in its current state. Thief too for that matter. Really, ANet needs to do kinda like WoW does and have profession community managers that actively play the game and have their fingers on the pulse of the community at large, and who are active on the forums and communicate with players. If that was a thing, Engineer wouldn't have been abysmal to play for way too long, and Elementalist probably wouldn't require machine learning to figure out how to play it competitively.

4 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

you are using wrong runes  , you get no benefit from the precision at all

Oh yeah, for my DPS certainly. I meant how it applies to the Mech. I don't think they're doing as much as people are saying. I just recently put this set together so I took some Pack runes from my previous set, I haven't gotten around to making the Scholar runes yet.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Ah gotcha, I stand corrected, so it gets 50% Ferocity instead of none (cap at 1500.)

 

I threw my build into gw2skills.net to compare to the one from SnowCrows:

Mine

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlxy0YvMXWMOuLvxPA-zRIYRUwXG1mAVUAqtM9IA-e

SC

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlxy0YvMXWMOuLvxPA-zRIYRUwXG1mAVUA2eAClXDFOjAA-e

 

Alright. So let's compare some numbers.

With the infusions and the better food/utility, they have 2871 power vs my 2597, but according to Mechanical Genius, the base power can't go over 2250, which should be reached when the Engineer hits 2500 power, so that most likely doesn't affect the Mech. It says "boons and buffs" but the food and utility buffs are on the Engineer, not the Mech.

They have 1255 Ferocity vs my 1000, which has a 50% contribution to the Mech thanks to Mechanical Genius, so the Mech should have ~128 extra Ferocity, or ~8.5% increased critical damage.

But they have 1960 Precision (50.71% crit) vs my 2125 Precision (58.57% crit.) Precision gets 100% contribution to the Mech, and even with Fury it should still not be crit capped, so their build has a decrease of ~8.04% critical chance. Neither is over the 2500 cap, so both numbers are relevant.

Now, based on the logs above, the DPS for the active abilities that got attributed to the Mech (aka the "non-AFK" abilities) contributed ~1700 DPS. So the claim that the AFK Mech is doing 9k DPS there is already false. That puts the difference between my Mech and their Mech at ~1300 DPS. Is that the 5% Scholar? Is 8.5% critical damage that much better than 8% critical chance when you're not capped? Maybe there is some positional thing going on as well that I'm not considering.

Either way, none of that addresses my earlier points that you skipped for your own expedience, which is pretty disrespectful since I took the time to respond to you in full.

You're forgetting about crit cap. You have extra crit chance you don't need.
50% crit chance from Berserker stats
25% from Fury 
15% from Hematic Focus
15% High Caliber if not actually ranging and staying on tag
 

The boons and buffs on you are transferred to the Mech short of any traits specifically designed not to such as AAR after patch. 
Scholar affects phantasms, pets, and mech.

The reason I don't bother to break it down for you point by point is you aren't using the right gear. I know what I wrote is correct since I'm the one who edited the wiki the day V.M.D. actually updated (as opposed to just listed in patch notes) and I personally tested and got >8K with autocasts. Feel free to believe what you want.

[zeyeti.8347]

10 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

I think we agree then, the main thing is that someone will pull out the Mechanist and insult Mechanist players, and then compare it to the Elementalist. But based on how the game is now, it's pretty clear that the Elementalist needs its core design principles reevaluated and updated to the game in its current state. Thief too for that matter. Really, ANet needs to do kinda like WoW does and have profession community managers that actively play the game and have their fingers on the pulse of the community at large, and who are active on the forums and communicate with players. If that was a thing, Engineer wouldn't have been abysmal to play for way too long, and Elementalist probably wouldn't require machine learning to figure out how to play it competitively.

It's a pity to say that but you are 100% right , at this stage , players know the game better than most of the devs , remind warrior having +5% crit. chance added in a condi. traitline ... or catalyst meta defining ? The early april fool patch joke , but it wasnt a joke ...

Edited October 24, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Vordrax.5243]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

15% from Hematic Focus

Does the Mech benefit from Hematic Focus? Asking honestly. (Keep in mind the discussion you joined was based on the premise of "sitting at 1200 range plinking while AFK" so I don't think we're counting High Caliber regardless, UNLESS the Mech gets its own version of High Caliber that is based on how close it is, which means I'm really not counting it since that build has ranged Mech and it's never going to be in melee range except by serendipity.)

 

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I personally tested and got >8K with autocasts. Feel free to believe what you want.

Well that is definitely not the 9.5k you were posting about earlier. I am already a bit skeptical since you haven't acknowledged that a big chunk of the damage difference noted above was due to the Mech getting credit for the active elite and active weapon 3 from the Engineer, which are definitely not firing off while the Engineer is AFK.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Does the Mech benefit from Hematic Focus? Asking honestly. (Keep in mind the discussion you joined was based on the premise of "sitting at 1200 range plinking while AFK" so I don't think we're counting High Caliber regardless, UNLESS the Mech gets its own version of High Caliber that is based on how close it is, which means I'm really not counting it since that build has ranged Mech and it's never going to be in melee range except by serendipity.)

 

Well that is definitely not the 9.5k you were posting about earlier. I am already a bit skeptical since you haven't acknowledged that a big chunk of the damage difference noted above was due to the Mech getting credit for the active elite and active weapon 3 from the Engineer, which are definitely not firing off while the Engineer is AFK.

It really shouldn't matter as mech gains flat 20% crit chance when running Jade Cannons. 

Also it is 9.5k from the mech. You wrote " do reject your claim that the Mech is pulling 9k DPS without some additional evidence." 

 

[Vordrax.5243]

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It really shouldn't matter as mech gains flat 20% crit chance when running Jade Cannons. 

So why not just say "20% from Jade Cannons" instead of mentioning traits which the Mech may or may not have access to? Anyways.

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also it is 9.5k from the mech. You wrote " do reject your claim that the Mech is pulling 9k DPS without some additional evidence." 

1.) It was in the context of the Mechanist being played at 1200 range essentially AFK. So why would you include logs that required player input to achieve without mentioning that caveat?

2.) Even if the Engineer was present hitting the buttons, they're still the result of player actions, which are only attributed to the pet due to the nature of the logs. If the Scourge's F-skills all got contributed to the sand shades, no one would be like "look at how much DPS those sand shades put out."

 

Very disingenuous.

EDIT: To interrupt this microcosm of dialogue, I wanted to say that I appreciate the laudable efforts you've put in to contributing to the Wiki and think that is very awesome.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

So why not just say "20% from Jade Cannons" instead of mentioning traits which the Mech may or may not have access to? Anyways.

1.) It was in the context of the Mechanist being played at 1200 range essentially AFK. So why would you include logs that required player input to achieve without mentioning that caveat?

2.) Even if the Engineer was present hitting the buttons, they're still the result of player actions, which are only attributed to the pet due to the nature of the logs. If the Scourge's F-skills all got contributed to the sand shades, no one would be like "look at how much DPS those sand shades put out."

 

Very disingenuous.

How is it disingenuous if you yourself got 6k+ DPS while running the wrong gear? You could easily reduce the player skills from the log yourself and the mech itself still is overperforming so long as autocast skills exist.

Compare that to say condi untamed which when using all pet skills is 7K on lynx, a fully melee pet that will never have the same DPS uptime and is unlikely to ever have the same boons as a mech (due to shift signet). That's not even including the difference in damage of autoing on rifle on mechanist compared to just about every ranged weapon ingame,
 
The reason why I listed Hematic Focus is I'm used to the way I add it up for scrapper and holo. I'm an engineer player not a mechanist only player.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Vordrax.5243]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How is it disingenuous if you yourself got 6k+ DPS while running the wrong gear? You could easily reduce the player skills from the log yourself and the mech itself still is overperforming so long as autocast skills exist.

1.) I mentioned my gear in the effort of learning. I know this is a difficult concept in the grand scheme of armchair philosophers on the forums, but I was attempting to learn something new and understand if I was doing something incorrect.

2.) That still has nothing to do with the fact that a large portion of that damage was not passive, given the context of the conversation. If the Mech's skills were not autocast, would you still consider those damage the Mech was doing? If not, then don't consider Jade Buster or Rocket Punch as well, since those are also not "autocast" because the Engineer has to specifically use those abilities.

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The reason why I listed Hematic Focus is I'm used to the way I add it up for scrapper and holo. I'm an engineer player not a mechanist only player.

Ooh a gatekeeping dig. I've been playing Engineer since the GW2 beta, so relax. In fact, just the other day, I was running around as Holosmith, which is still one of the coolest specs in the game. We've already established that people who started playing Engineer because of Mechanist are still Engineer players, that has already been decided.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

1.) I mentioned my gear in the effort of learning. I know this is a difficult concept in the grand scheme of armchair philosophers on the forums, but I was attempting to learn something new and understand if I was doing something incorrect.

2.) That still has nothing to do with the fact that a large portion of that damage was not passive, given the context of the conversation. If the Mech's skills were not autocast, would you still consider those damage the Mech was doing? If not, then don't consider Jade Buster or Rocket Punch as well, since those are also not "autocast" because the Engineer has to specifically use those abilities.

Ooh a gatekeeping dig. I've been playing Engineer since the GW2 beta, so relax. In fact, just the other day, I was running around as Holosmith, which is still one of the coolest specs in the game. We've already established that people who started playing Engineer because of Mechanist are still Engineer players, that has already been decided.

The only armchair philosopher is the guy ranting about ZPD every 5 seconds which has no basis for reality of what people achieve ingame. I gave you numbers , I gave you logs. Even linked you the traits.

Even with your number of 6K DPS if you add in 15K rifle DPS (which is below normal due to not using air sigil) that you had that is easily 21K+, and possibly at range.

P.S. Also my account is since first GW1 beta and my engineer is made GW2 beta prelaunch.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How is it disingenuous if you yourself got 6k+ DPS while running the wrong gear? You could easily reduce the player skills from the log yourself and the mech itself still is overperforming so long as autocast skills exist.

Compare that to say condi untamed which when using all pet skills is 7K on lynx, a fully melee pet that will never have the same DPS uptime and is unlikely to ever have the same boons as a mech (due to shift signet). That's not even including the difference in damage of autoing on rifle on mechanist compared to just about every ranged weapon ingame,
 
The reason why I listed Hematic Focus is I'm used to the way I add it up for scrapper and holo. I'm an engineer player not a mechanist only player.

Still waiting on pet auto cast for unleashed pets btw. 

Just thought I'd throw that out there. 

 

On another note, Lynx uptime isn't as bad as it sounds on paper. You can quickly reposition it with Rending Pounce and Venomous Outburst. The later has half the cooldown of rolling smash, instant travel time, and 300 more range. 

This is also without factoring in fervent force reducing the CD. 

Its uptime isn't as good as ranged mech, but it is a good step above melee mechs. 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Vordrax.5243]

 

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even with your number of 6K DPS if you add in 15K rifle DPS (which is below normal due to not using air sigil) that you had that is easily 21K+, and possibly at range.

You are really struggling with "Ah, I was wrong, I made a mistake, I forgot to acknowledge that the number I said was completely passive actually included active skills." It doesn't mean you're a bad person if you acknowledge that you made a mistake, it means you're growing as a person. Continuing to dig in and try to trick me into thinking I made any other claim is, at this point, a bit silly.

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

P.S. Also my account is since first GW1 beta and my engineer is made GW2 beta prelaunch.

Oh same, didn't realize we were going back that far. I had a Ranger in the GW1 beta but I went with Necromancer after launch.

 

6 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Still waiting on pet auto cast for unleashed pets btw. 

I'm for autocast on all pet abilities for LI purposes if nothing else. If they need to balance it, they can raise the cooldown whenever the ability is cast by the pet, or lower the efficacy, or something. Granted, since I'm not the one implementing that change, it's way easier for me to suggest.

[MrForz.1953]

Meh. With Core Reactor Shot and Jade Mortar being set on autocast there has been no end of murders and problems in content that contains reflects. Autocast on F1 is reasonable, it's stupidly inefficient on F2 and F3 no matter the traits used and dangerous for your group on the mentioned two skills. 

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Still waiting on pet auto cast for unleashed pets btw. 

Just thought I'd throw that out there. 

 

On another note, Lynx uptime isn't as bad as it sounds on paper. You can quickly reposition it with Rending Pounce and Venomous Outburst. The later has half the cooldown of rolling smash, instant travel time, and 300 more range. 

This is also without factoring in fervent force reducing the CD. 

Its uptime isn't as good as ranged mech, but it is a good step above melee mechs. 

 

I have nothing against the melee mech getting 20K-25K total auto since it has built in checks from positioning, and it isn't anything out of the ordinary compared to what has existed in the past. 

If there was a ranger pet doing 5K+ autos at 1200 range it would probably shut out every melee ranger pet too.

38 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Meh. With Core Reactor Shot and Jade Mortar being set on autocast there has been no end of murders and problems in content that contains reflects. Autocast on F1 is reasonable, it's stupidly inefficient on F2 and F3 no matter the traits used and dangerous for your group on the mentioned two skills. 

We're talking about a PVE build not a WVW one. Anywhere you can't use a ranged mech you can't use the meta axe+longbow power soulbeast , condi soulbeast with a shortbow, catalyst due to the orb mechanic, rifle deadeye or specter in general, harbinger shroud, longbow on condi berserker, shortbow on condi ren (for the most part), staff mirage, or dagger condi virtuoso either. That's a statement in bad faith.

The places in instanced content that stick out to me are jade constructs in the Solid Ocean fractal, Sunqua Peak during water phase, and Minister of Morale in the Cold War strike mission if you have the week with Frozen Footfalls.