Question re. SA and stealth attacks

[MSFone.3026]

Returning player after the recent SA changes. With the effects that trigger on "enter or exit stealth", the enter part is obvious, but what counts as "exiting" stealth?
 

1. If I hit a player with a stealth attack, does this count as "exiting stealth" and will I receive the benefits of the above traits (e.g. +1 init etc.)? The wiki says stealth attacks "break stealth" and apply revealed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth
2. I assume if I'm revealed I don't get any benefits of the above traits. True?

 

Seems to me that if I successfully land a stealth attack, that should count towards receiving the benefits of the traits, otherwise you are effectively punished for using your stealth attack if you take SA.

The use of the term "exit" is ambiguous and should be clarified imo. I could not find anything on the wiki defining "exit stealth." Do they mean letting stealth expire without breaking it early through attacking or damage?

Edited October 8, 2022 by MSFone.3026

[saerni.2584]

It just means leaving stealth. So even if you just let stealth drop, get revealed because of stealth attack, or get revealed by outside factors.

[MSFone.3026]

Wow, that’s really good imo... in that case I don’t understand all the frustration over these changes to SA. I’m testing it out rn and it seems great. Go figure. 

[saerni.2584]

The frustration came from a few heavy handed removals of all stealth access outside reviving an ally, which was an essential function of the trait line (if stacked to an unhealthy degree after adding stealth on heal as baseline).

The changes otherwise were healthy and promote active gameplay over passive stealth stacking and permastealth. That aspect mirrored years of advocacy by experienced thieves in how to improve the trait line for competitive balance.

[MSFone.3026]

Aside from stealth on steal, which I admit was huge and I don’t get the reason for it, what other stealth access was taken away?

[Vidit.7108]

in addition to stealth on stealing, stealth on a healing skill was taken, the duration extension, and in PVE the recharge reduction on deception skills.

On Specter healing i don't think you can actually maintain protection without sacrificing weapon skill shadowsteps for healing, the synergy to make that into a fluid thing isn't really there at least especially with the initiative cost versus the duration.

[ASP.8093]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:36 PM, MSFone.3026 said:

Wow, that’s really good imo... in that case I don’t understand all the frustration over these changes to SA. I’m testing it out rn and it seems great. Go figure. 

Yeah, it's really strong *if you can get a ton of stealth access from somewhere else.* Overall that can be rough for Dagger/Pistol Daredevil since so much of that build relied on getting like 6+ seconds of stealth from Hide in Shadows — now that Deception skill base cooldowns are fixed there's room to try Improvisation D/P Daredevil builds, though. New Shadow Arts is really, really good when you can spam short-duration stealth, like on Rifle Deadeye or Cele Smoke-Leap Daredevil.

(People who believe the main purpose of Deadeye is to run away will yet at me for posting that.)

Edited October 10, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Bern.9613]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:36 PM, MSFone.3026 said:

Wow, that’s really good imo... in that case I don’t understand all the frustration over these changes to SA. I’m testing it out rn and it seems great. Go figure. 

So, what are you views now? I would also ask that you specify if it's about pve or pvp/wvw. In pve, rifle deadeye is okish. You have 3 sec to reposition/get a combo off. In competitive modes, not so much, you have 1 sec to reposition and/or try to get a combo off.

On 10/10/2022 at 9:30 AM, ASP.8093 said:

(People who believe the main purpose of Deadeye is to run away will yet at me for posting that.)

Deadeye runs away more now then they did prior to the disemboweling of SA.

[Loboling.5293]

Ya, I'm loving the new SA, I think it's more fun for thief and other players. And if you time it right, you can still perma stealth easily in PvE with just dagger pistol. You just don't stack stealth anymore. Which frankly got annoying after the changes to dagger 2 not being able to target the ground. I miss the old simplicity, but I prefer this for general play.

[MSFone.3026]

Yeah I love it overall. I play everything, mostly wvw and pvp though.

 

There is definitely a tempo and rhythm to learn with it, but I’ve been wrecking pretty hard and having a lot more fun. SR still gives enough stealth to allow for fun stuff or big escapes, and I think overall the camping of stealth was stupid.

 

I do think the removal of stealth on steal was heavy handed, and I think that D/P is a *tiny* bit underpowered compared to what it should be, but only barely so. Like I think instead of completely removing the duration increase they could have just shortened it, even an extra 1sec or even .5 sec would not be OP at all imo.

 

But nothing is perfect and overall I think they did a great job revamping the playstyle of thief to something much more engaging and healthier for the game. The encouragement to stay in stealth, and therefor penalties for leaving it early, were imo really lame for the gaming as well as boring.

[ASP.8093]

If you're experimenting with D/P Daredevil, try it with the Deadly Arts line to get Improvisation. That used to be an inferior build back when they jacked all the Deception skill cooldowns up, but now that they're back to normal again (since you can't take Hidden Thief to reduce them), you can do a lot with a build that constantly recharges its utilities and gets to double-dip stolen skills.

[Mincsk.6028]

14 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

So, what are you views now? I would also ask that you specify if it's about pve or pvp/wvw. In pve, rifle deadeye is okish. You have 3 sec to reposition/get a combo off. In competitive modes, not so much, you have 1 sec to reposition and/or try to get a combo off.

Deadeye runs away more now then they did prior to the disemboweling of SA.

Agree 100% it was a disemboweling. It's weird to me to see like alt fact propagandist white knight type players saying things like "specter is still okay" and s.a change is good because experienced thieves wanted it" like manufacturing consent type propagandists. But really the nerf for both shadow arts and specter are huge nerfs I've not used thief in anything other then open world since. Even anets own partner streamers know it was a monster nerf. 

[Bern.9613]

14 hours ago, MSFone.3026 said:

Yeah I love it overall. I play everything, mostly wvw and pvp though.

 

There is definitely a tempo and rhythm to learn with it, but I’ve been wrecking pretty hard and having a lot more fun. SR still gives enough stealth to allow for fun stuff or big escapes, and I think overall the camping of stealth was stupid.

 

I do think the removal of stealth on steal was heavy handed, and I think that D/P is a *tiny* bit underpowered compared to what it should be, but only barely so. Like I think instead of completely removing the duration increase they could have just shortened it, even an extra 1sec or even .5 sec would not be OP at all imo.

 

But nothing is perfect and overall I think they did a great job revamping the playstyle of thief to something much more engaging and healthier for the game. The encouragement to stay in stealth, and therefor penalties for leaving it early, were imo really lame for the gaming as well as boring.

I have to agree with others, why are you using SA with d/p build? Dash daredevil with ?kitten?(<---changed the shorthand for deadly arts by bot) will more then keep you healthy in pvp/wvw. Haven't tested it lately but mug isn't suppose to pop you out of stealth so in theory, you can stealth up, dash once or twice, use the unblockable steal in and womp'em with a backstab or the shadow shot, backstab combo. Either way, SA isn't worth it.

9 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

Agree 100% it was a disemboweling. It's weird to me to see like alt fact propagandist white knight type players saying things like "specter is still okay" and s.a change is good because experienced thieves wanted it" like manufacturing consent type propagandists. But really the nerf for both shadow arts and specter are huge nerfs I've not used thief in anything other then open world since. Even anets own partner streamers know it was a monster nerf. 

IKR 😉 I don't know if it's pride or whatever but they have to realize it was a bad move. Doesn't matter if they found it frustrating or not. What about mech stealthing up to 1 shot or mesmer who has been doing it forever or zerker ranger knocking people off of mounts and killing them before the dismounted animation is over. Those aren't "frustrating" at all. Bugs Bunny the Vindicator bouncing around healing isn't frustrating. Nope. Just thief, the stealth class, and it's ability to stealth.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bern.9613

[MSFone.3026]

Mostly because it’s fun, I’m experimenting, and for me it’s working fine so far. I’m like a grade B-B+ player, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Again I think they went a little heavy handed on the overall reductions to our duration/access to stealth, however the general theme of rewarding entry/exit over just camping it is definitely a huge plus imo. Hopefully they tune it back a little and give us at least some duration buff back, that would be great.

 

I can see how some people don’t like the change, I was “wtf” at first as well and missed my old build. But the more I play with it the happier I am with the change. I feel it pushes me to learn more and play better. Maybe I’ll hit my ceiling with it and get frustrated, but so far this is more technically engaging to play and I’m wrecking enough people to where I feel this isn’t a nerf to me personally at least.

 

Definitely get how some people dislike the change though, makes sense and there isn’t an obvious right or wrong.

 

I also just tend to try and find ways to make things work, up to a point. 
 

Anyway hope that provides context and answers your questions. Have fun out there!

[DeceiverX.8361]

3 hours ago, MSFone.3026 said:

I can see how some people don’t like the change, I was “wtf” at first as well and missed my old build. But the more I play with it the happier I am with the change. I feel it pushes me to learn more and play better. Maybe I’ll hit my ceiling with it and get frustrated, but so far this is more technically engaging to play and I’m wrecking enough people to where I feel this isn’t a nerf to me personally at least.

You love to see it.

That mentality is indicative that you have a while before hitting your ceiling, too 🙂