Your PVP changes have ruined Specter

[SolidTx.3249]

So you all hire a new person to be solely responsible for balance - well let me provide some feedback that if this is what we are to expect I'm sorry, the first patch to "balance" things is TERRIBLE.

 

You've ruined Specter. Its unplayable. It went from decent in PVE to absolutely terrible in one PVP switch. How can you make such sweeping changes and ruin a class like this? Sad. This will drive people from playing the game.

 

 

 

[Ashgar.3024]

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

You've ruined Specter. Its unplayable.

Calm down, its really not.

 

Alac Specter is still great, arguably better than it was pre-patch in some scenarios like fractals due to the changes to WoB. On Demand Stab is nothing to scoff at.

 

For the DPS build, just stop running full vipers and run a mix of Ritualist and Carrion gear instead, 2k BENCH DPS loss but still a 36500 bench which is a far cry from "unplayable" specially since you still provide a decent chunk of barrier.

 

Yes the solo barrier build is dead but that was honestly a bit degen, i prefer seeing that axed to give some dev space for Anet to hopefully fix the actual support traits in the Specter line.

 

Stop with the hyperbolic bs, its not helping anything.

 

Edit : your boo's mean nothing, i've seen what makes you cheer.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[UNOwen.7132]

21 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Calm down, its really not.

 

Alac Specter is still great, arguably better than it was pre-patch in some scenarios like fractals due to the changes to WoB. On Demand Stab is nothing to scoff at.

 

For the DPS build, just stop running full vipers and run a mix of Ritualist and Carrion gear instead, 2k BENCH DPS loss but still a 36500 bench which is a far cry from "unplayable" specially since you still provide a decent chunk of barrier.

 

Yes the solo barrier build is dead but that was honestly a bit degen, i prefer seeing that axed to give some dev space for Anet to hopefully fix the actual support traits in the Specter line.

 

Stop with the hyperbolic bs, its not helping anything.

The build is now performing worse than DD and DE, and those 2 were bad before the patch too. Its in a pretty bad state. "Unplayable" is really not far off. If you remember the Cata outrage a while back that got them compensatory buffs, that version of Cata was much better than Spectre is now.

[Gwynnion.7364]

People keep saying, "Oh, just run Ritualist, Carrion, or Trailblazer's, it's still good."  And yeah, that compensates somewhat but it's annoying the devs keep pushing DPS builds toward these survival oriented stats simply because they don't want to fix the underlying problems and keep nerfing what sources of sustain people have. 

Besides which, if high survivability and big heals from Consume Shadows are what motivated them to nerf Shadow Shroud, I can't help feeling they're just going to hit it again when they see everyone stacking Vitality to compensate.

[Ashgar.3024]

4 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

People keep saying, "Oh, just run Ritualist, Carrion, or Trailblazer's, it's still good."  And yeah, that compensates somewhat but it's annoying the devs keep pushing DPS builds toward these survival oriented stats simply because they don't want to fix the underlying problems and keep nerfing what sources of sustain people have. 

Besides which, if high survivability and big heals from Consume Shadows are what motivated them to nerf Shadow Shroud, I can't help feeling they're just going to hit it again when they see everyone stacking Vitality to compensate.

 

Idk, sure feels a bit more interesting than just running Vipers/Zerker on everything. Why shouldn't new elite designs actually make use to different gear sets than the ones that came before. Vipers make sense on Daredevil since D/D is an hybrid weapon set and the build has inherently a ton of evade frames, its part of its core design. On a clearly more defensive design like Specter, not so much. Otherwise they would had given Scepter skills Power scaling.

 

I don't see why they'd nerf Shroud again because of that either since at least its a tradeoff now. Its not like you can't run vipers if you're convinced you're hot stuff and above the "peasants" running Ritualist, just better time your dodges right if you want to stay in shroud now ;).

4 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

The build is now performing worse than DD and DE,

Still benches higher than Daredevil and in realistic scenarios i expect them to be about equal, varying per encounter ofc as they're inherently different designs.

 

Not sure in which universe Deadeye is worth using anywhere besides both Qadims and maybe HT CM as far as PvE is concerned. 40k bench on a static golem != useability.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Squeesidhe.4761]

3 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

For the DPS build, just stop running full vipers and run a mix of Ritualist and Carrion gear instead

That's right, just grind out an entirely new set of gear so the class is playable again. Still not at the level of effectiveness that it was before, of course, and maybe not actually fun to do anything other than fashion wars, but at least now you'll be able to continue your class within the very specific set of parameters that Anet allows. 

[Ashgar.3024]

13 minutes ago, Squeesidhe.4761 said:

That's right, just grind out an entirely new set of gear so the class is playable again. Still not at the level of effectiveness that it was before, of course, and maybe not actually fun to do anything other than fashion wars, but at least now you'll be able to continue your class within the very specific set of parameters that Anet allows. 

Realistically you want a set of Ritualist gear anyway if you want to use the spec to its full potential as its arguably more useful as a Boon DPS build than a pure DPS one, patch hasn't changed that much.

 

Carrion gear is also not very hard to come by.

 

Besides the difference between Vipers and Ritualist/Carrion has always been marginal. I heavily suspect Specter was never meant to function with Vipers gear in the first place.

 

Literally ALL the power damage on a FULL Viper setup is worth 2k BENCH dps flat. And people complain Vitality is a wasted stat. Figure it out.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[SamuelW.2685]

I saw Teapots opinions on the changes and I'm glad he's bringing attention to it, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom, overall, Specter is still fine and viable

That however, doesn't make the shroud nerf in PvE any less asinine, I've said this in like 3 bloody posts by now but Shroud is to Specter what DD's dodge uptime is and Deadeyes Rifle 4 and Stealth access is to them, it's what makes all those specs survivable despite Thief's low HP.

Say you're fighting a group of tough mobs, maybe in HoT, but use whatever example you want, to survive the fight, a DD will dodge through, combined with Escapist's Fortitude for potentially ludicrous healing if there's lots of attacks going out. A Deadeye will go into stealth or Rifle 4 away, allowing them to kill the mobs from a safer distance, and Be Quick or Be Dead (quickness, extra power, on steal) plus Mug (Heal on Steal) can help with sustain. Specter will go into to survive, and depending on the first trait taken, either come out of Shroud with Barrier or automatically use Shroud when they would've been killed.

See the issue? It'd be like nerfing Rifle 4 or DD's dodges. something core to their kit that helps them survive.

And that's just my perspective from generalist open world play, in Stikes, where I mostly play Specter, it hurts even more. You can have easily have less then 10k HP in Shroud even with Partial Cele, try giving barrier/healing in something like Boneskinner or KO when it drops your shroud to nothing due to unavoidable mechanics or someone messing up. 

The well of bounty changes hurt too, it's not major, but Siphon already gives Full Fury Uptime without 100% boon duration, Might, and Vigor, the only thing good about the new well of Bounty is the stab and that's it. 

What can be done? They could change the coeffect to maybe something around 1.0 if they're worried, but imo, I think just reverting it back in PvE ONLY it'd be fine too. Well of Bounty could also be reverted without issue too, but if they wish to keep it as is, they could maybe add something like protection too it to make it more viable instead of giving it the same boons Siphon gives.

If they wanna keep Shroud as it is, perhaps they could increase the rate at which Specter gains Shadow Force, allowing you too keep going in more frequently. 

What makes this nerf so bitter and uncalled for people is just how unwarranted it was, Alac Specter wasn't the best healer, wasn't the best Alac DPS, and as a general healer without Alac it def wasn't the best, it was good, very good in fact, but it wasn't OP. 

[Ashgar.3024]

27 minutes ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Alac Specter wasn't the best healer,

Heal Specter doesn't even exist. Its not a thing.

Part of that is the half-botched attempt at support traits Specter is stuck with, the other part was pre-barrier nerf there wasn't any point to even consider playing Specter as a real support. 

Pre-nerf Specter could keep a sub alive on its own through pretty much all raid content except the last 2 CMs (HT and the weeb dude i forgot the name of), just needed full Ritualist gear alongside a full DPS build. I mean heck its how most groups met the DPS check on Ankha for Gazed into the Void.

If they ever wanted to make support specter a real thing they needed to change Consume Shadow either way and that's my main criticism of the change, they did half the job. The change should had came alongside a support Specter rework. But it was still needed.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ashgar.3024]

38 minutes ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

The well of bounty changes hurt too, it's not major, but Siphon already gives Full Fury Uptime without 100% boon duration, Might, and Vigor, the only thing good about the new well of Bounty is the stab and that's it. 

 

Its a great useability change though, means you can hold on Siphon to boonrip, particularily useful in Fractals or on Dhuum. Also makes the rez on Siphon trait more useable. Also means you can hold WoB for moments where Stab would be crucial without dropping boons. Or heck if none of these situations apply just drop Bountiful Theft and get the Torment trait.

 

One of the main community complaint atm as far as supports are concerned is the fact a lot of them tend to have to spam their abilities on CD to maintain boons, Specter is def part of that. Changes like this giving us back some leeway to play more reactively is actually a step in the right direction if you stop 2 seconds to think about it.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Bladezephyr.5714]

23 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Idk, sure feels a bit more interesting than just running Vipers/Zerker on everything. Why shouldn't new elite designs actually make use to different gear sets than the ones that came before.

Well, one reason is because they're still quite hard / annoying to get, compared to others...

 

23 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Vipers make sense on Daredevil since D/D is an hybrid weapon set and the build has inherently a ton of evade frames, its part of its core design. On a clearly more defensive design like Specter, not so much. Otherwise they would had given Scepter skills Power scaling.

Viper's also makes sense on a build that has great durability through mechanics like shroud, and defensive boons, like it had with WoB, until this patch.  As for why scepter didn't get more power scaling... it really should.  In fact this might be a good way to fix this problem--replace one of the other two adept traits with one that gives specter more power scaling.  It's still a predominantly single-target DPS spec, so allowing it to bench at, say, 41-45K isn't horrible... I'd agree it shouldn't also have crazy healing at the same time, though.

21 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Heal Specter doesn't even exist. Its not a thing.

[...]

Pre-nerf Specter could keep a sub alive on its own through pretty much all raid content except the last 2 CMs (HT and the weeb dude i forgot the name of), just needed full Ritualist gear alongside a full DPS build. I mean heck its how most groups met the DPS check on Ankha for Gazed into the Void.

Says heal specter isn't a thing, then explains exactly why it was a thing... 😆

Seriously... Heal specter is (well, was) better than most people give it credit for... With consume shadows, traversing dusk, shadow savior, and permanent regen, group healing is not bad at all, and then add to that all the barrier application.  Using twilight combo on allies provides additional barrier and healing to burst as needed.  WoB typically would provide perma regen, some prot, resistance, resolution (and yes, quite frequently, stability) reducing damage even more.   It's really not bad at all.  I mean was... the WoB changes and the shroud changes definitely killed it.  I have a separate thread on the WoB changes: 

 

[Bladezephyr.5714]

3 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

That build was Barrier Specter using the exact same traits as the dps build, just different gear.

The build that you were talking about, maybe.  I actually mean heal specter... something like this (though there are a number of possible variations):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaBBsitjlhyYZpsVWLeqWnxfA-zRRYVRP7N4CJnQorEojKw3Z54PNA-e

This takes all the wells for 5x1,826 group heals (more for yourself) per cooldown cycle, with well of gloom getting an additional 5 ticks at 1,442 for a total of 9,036 from that one skill alone, every 16s.  Twilight combo heals its ally target for 880 a pop plus providing massive barrier application, and we haven't even considered Consume Shadows yet.  Pre-nerf (on the 4th) you'd also get regen from WoB for another 239/s. This of course is heal-centric--if you want to maximize boon uptime from WoB etc., you'd probably want to swap to a mostly minstrel's with some diviner's pieces and runes of leadership.  This is probably not a terrible trade since specter's heals scale very poorly with healing power.  Regen from WoB became permanent at 234/s.  [Note: I'm honestly not sure if these numbers take into account the 20% bonus from Dark Sentry.]  That build would look something like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaBBsitjlhyYZpsVWLeqWnxfA-zRRYjRPXAcQ+nSOChqVApLB6QE4xp5AfaAA-e

Both of these builds are quite serviceable.  Or, were...  Under the current regime the minstrel's version is probably dead, because CS is unreliable, due to limited vitality.  The first version might actually still work, though again its boon delivery is on the weak side.

 

3 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Consume Shadow passively healing/barriering while you do a full dps rotation!= playing support. Surely you see the difference and just felt like being intelectually dishonest there.

Clearly that's not what I'm talking about at all.  I will admit that alac specter still does an OK job at filling this role, but it is much worse, with less and less reliable healing from CS, defensive boons from WoB completely gone, and the heal traits not really worth taking, under the circumstances.  Even still, I find your argument regarding playing support disingenuous... alac specter is, and is intended to be, a hybrid spec, not a pure DPS spec, and it just so happens that you have to give up very little to get good DPS out of it, very much like a certain other hybrid (firebrand) that everyone loves to hate on.  I frankly do consider that to be a design flaw, but that flaw in no measure takes away from the very obvious hybrid nature of the spec.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Bladezephyr.5714

[Bladezephyr.5714]

20 minutes ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

The first version might actually still work, though again its boon delivery is on the weak side.

Well, again, it's basically garbage now due to the changes to WoB.

[Ashgar.3024]

17 minutes ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

The build that you were talking about, maybe.  I actually mean heal specter... something like this (though there are a number of possible variations):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaBBsitjlhyYZpsVWLeqWnxfA-zRRYVRP7N4CJnQorEojKw3Z54PNA-e

 

That's not something That's actively supported by communities like Snowcrows/Discretize/Hardstuck.

 

I don't even hate the idea of Plaguedoc Specter but there's a reason its not currently encouraged. Its trash compared to existing alternatives.

 

I mean give me a single argument for running that build over something like Mec, Druid or even Tempest?

 

Heck even If you just want a rez bot, just bring a full DPS Scourge with Blood traitline (transfusion) and signet of undeath instead.

[Bladezephyr.5714]

5 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

That's not something That's actively supported by communities like Snowcrows/Discretize/Hardstuck.

I don't particularly care.  It was serviceable, and fun.  And AFAICT, the one and only reason it's never been considered good is because it doesn't provide 25 stacks of might.  There are a bunch of builds that can do that now, you don't need your healer to do it.  It still wasn't used though because it makes thinking about group comp harder.  And of course, because now it genuinely is trash.

 

5 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

I mean give me a single argument for running that build over something like Mec, Druid or even Tempest?

I just gave you one:  It's fun.   Here's another:  I already have a properly-geared specter.  I don't have a mech or a druid, and in fact I don't play ranger or engie.  Never liked them.  I do have a level 80 engie but I don't want to play it even long enough to unlock mech.  I never even managed to level a ranger--I have one that's level 20, deleted 3 other attempts to level one cuz I just don't like it.  I do have a temptest, but basically same drill.  And I don't have legendary armor, so even if I did want to, gearing a new spec for, say, fractals, is a pain in the kitten.

[Bladezephyr.5714]

16 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Heck even If you just want a rez bot, just bring a full DPS Scourge with Blood traitline (transfusion) and signet of undeath instead.

Oh and yeah... I do play scourge, fairly often.  I occasionally even play blood scourge, and that can be fun.  But it's not a substitute for heal specter, which can give you as much if not more barrier and heal the sense out of you.  Its rez ability isn't really that great--it's just a nice-to-have on top of all the rest.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Regarding WoB, I just want five target Regeneration back so I can compete with other healers. Thief has no sustained healing of allies, only bursts, which makes it even weaker than Herald sometimes. Barriers can only do so much, and you can't realistically give allies Regen one by one with the scepter.

 

The shroud problem, has nothing to do with Thief. Its an issue shared with Reaper.

 

One more thing: Why is our Concentration bonus in Acrobatics? Because of this its impossible to reach the required 85% boon duration to max out in Fractals, while every other support can do this. You'd have to take massive amounts of Harrier' or Giver's gear instead of Minstrel's, and Harrier's does almost no damage on a full support Thief since its mostly a condi spec. Kind of wasteful.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Gwynnion.7364]

"Just bring something else."  Yeah, that's the problem.  People do.  Specter wasn't that great a support spec to begin with and now it's worse. 

"But you can also do DPS."  So can multiple other support specs.  Some people just seem to want Specter to be useless so it will go away.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

"Just bring something else."  Yeah, that's the problem.  People do.  Specter wasn't that great a support spec to begin with and now it's worse. 

"But you can also do DPS."  So can multiple other support specs.  Some people just seem to want Specter to be useless so it will go away.

This is ironic since I've found Spectre to be the most interesting and most fun to play support spec in the entire game since it released way back in 2012, and I think many others feel the same.

[Dagger.2035]

I mainly play WvW but only play specter in PVE instanced content.  I wish they would revert the WoB changes as well.  A small amount of stability won't make specter useful in large scale WvW combat.  It would be better if this specialization focused on boon removal to make it more useful in WvW.  This is something that is lacking right now with the recent nerfs.  Since this is a thief specialization boon stealing would make more sense and this may help give the thief more sustain in large scale fights.  I'm hoping boon stealing could be tuned so it doesn't have as much impact in small scale fights.

Next the specter will need more reliable weapon skills.  It really needs a scepter AOE skill to compete.  Right now thief only has melee cleave and Choking Gas as reliable weapon skills for large scale fights.  I'm omitting daredevil since that's a different specialization.

[Noc Rubu.5804]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:09 AM, SolidTx.3249 said:

So you all hire a new person to be solely responsible for balance - well let me provide some feedback that if this is what we are to expect I'm sorry, the first patch to "balance" things is TERRIBLE.

 

You've ruined Specter. Its unplayable. It went from decent in PVE to absolutely terrible in one PVP switch. How can you make such sweeping changes and ruin a class like this? Sad. This will drive people from playing the game.

Oh So now they get the feedback, they pretended to receive already ... after they made their decision to change all these classes.  Feedback with Everyone is key to effective communication, Anet weren't you elaborating on this point?  Yes you said the words but took NO action on those words. That means, and I'll talk Dev talk, it's NULL.  

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/12/2022 at 4:44 AM, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

Idk, sure feels a bit more interesting than just running Vipers/Zerker on everything. Why shouldn't new elite designs actually make use to different gear sets than the ones that came before. Vipers make sense on Daredevil since D/D is an hybrid weapon set and the build has inherently a ton of evade frames, its part of its core design. On a clearly more defensive design like Specter, not so much. Otherwise they would had given Scepter skills Power scaling.

Twilight Combo does, to the point where there was a power-based spectre PvP build until it had its initiative cost increased, and shroud skills also have decent power scaling. You mention that Ritualist isn't that much of a damage drop over Viper's, and I think that's believable, but not because spectre lacks in power scaling - instead, I think it's because Strength of Shadows converts vitality to expertise, so in a benchmark test, that partially offsets the loss of power stats.

In any fight with condition-clearing, though, the difference between Viper and Ritualist is going to be greater.