The real reason people spam auto-attack

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No.  For every static I ever tried to join, sans one, had DPS requirements listed.  That means that DPS requirements are listed pretty much always.

Oh, so now it's "every static you've tried to join" (which still isn't correct to say that every static requires benchmark dps btw), but your initial claim wasn't about "how to join static", it was "what the content requires/is balanced around". So now you're backpedalling and moving the goalposts because you know you've argued for 2 pages repeating something that's clearly false.

Statics are nowhere near needed to compelte the content, I don't play in statics and pugs I join have no problem with easly going through the full wings. No build or dps checks either.

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No.  It shows that you've caved to meta demands and grinded the raid boss enough to get the KP.

No, having kp has nothing to do with the builds you've used in order to finish the encounter, it has nothing to do with "caving to meta". And no, people don't -generally- check the builds, nobody ever checked what I'm running for years.

 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I do find it odd that commanders are more likely to kick somebody who lives and does terrible DPS than somebody who dies early.

Not from what I've noticed. But also there's a rather wide range of possibilities between "terrible dps" (to the point it wouldn't allow for compelting the encounter) and having optimal dps.

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I mean, seriously: what are the requirements that YOUR statics have for recruiting new players?

So, again, since when is this about statics? You even talk about "not seeing groups in lfg now" in this very post, but suddenly you're trying to limit the number of groups you'd like to talk about as much as you can? (as said above, statics still don't use optimal dps as a general rule: some sure do, some sure don't. As such, even in statics this is not required to participate and complete this content. Except... we're not even talking about just statics and we never were)

Edited October 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Want proof?  Join one as a DPS, and deliberately do bad DPS.  Watch what happens.  Hell, you can join a 30+ KP group and deliberately do bad DPS, and they'll also either kick or quit.

Ok, what exactly is "bad dps" then? While responding to this question, keep in mind that your claim was about optimal dps being required to play/complete this content.

 

And about this "that's not what I said" post:

You've avoided -intentionally or not, irrelevant- the actual start of the conversation, in this case there was a discussion about whether or not optimal/top performance is needed with your first response being:

If top performance is needed to complete the content, it means every group requires absolute top performance, but vast majority clearly just doesn't. DPS reqs are not listed and people don't generally somehow go out of their way to check other players' dps in order for them to join a group. So stop moving the goalposts now, that's what you were arguing about and that's what is easly false. Top/optimal performance isn't required in this content: not by its design and not even by the general playerbase participating in it. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

There is no war in Ba Sing Se. Everything is good. There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

There is no toxicity in OW. Everything is nice. There is no toxicity in OW.
Glances at map chat after meta fail.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

22 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

That doesn't sound right at all. I haven't read the entire thread but thousands upon thousands of training runs is very likely referring to the RA discord. It runs probably a good 20/30 raid pings per day and they have been doing it for years. So yeah I think that number sounds about right. I wouldn't be surprised if is over 10k now.

 

I have seen KP requirements before, but with the power creep pretty much nobody really cares unless you join and do horrific dps in the fights and the raid keeps wiping then yes you will be kicked, I mean literally below healer type dps. Why is this a problem? If I have a quickness join my raid and he can't do quickness, I am going to teach him, swap roles or get kicked if he refuses to improve, same thing with dps.

 

Also no, while KP I can say is somewhat frequent, bench is very very rarely asked. The only time I have seen frequently is for HTCM where the content is incredibly difficult that people ask for it, which I think is rather reasonable for the hardest fight in the game by far.

 

As for statics? You can go to the RA discord right now and just browse their static recruitment. I counted back 10 recruitment, 3 of them ask for bench ranging from 75% to 90%. Everyone else ask for things like have at least 1 pdps or cdps or know mechanic/roles sort of thing. I don't think that's a very high percentage at all, especially the ones that are asking is doing full clear w1-w7 for the most part with minimal downtime which is more on the serious side of things.

 

So yeah, I don't know where you are getting your experience from but mine is similar to the others. Also please you think people in statics don't look at LFGs. This game has a low raiding population that everyone looks at LFGs because people drop in and out all the time. Don't speak for others and say they don't look at LFGs when you have no proof of it. Even when I used to play often with my friends I still browse LFG constantly because I wanted to learn the fights on my own and improve myself. Seriously man, don't assume what others are doing, that's a bit rude.

It would help to read my previous posts when talking to me.  I've mentioned Raid Academy twice already.  There may have been a recent revival, but last time I had checked the place was pretty dead.  I would see two, maybe three training runs being run a day, against a single boss in a single wing.  All of those "pings" frequently fail to get off the ground, or end in outright failure.  This is why I said before that the number of training runs being ran on discord is closer to one dozen a week.  I doubt there's thousands upon thousands of raids being run a week, let alone raid training.  

Also, don't be a hypocrite.  You chastise me on speaking for others when that is what is being done to me in this thread over and over again.  To wit, I never said there was something wrong with kicking a player who has ultra-low DPS.  You bring that up as a contrarian point, shoving the assertion into my mouth that it was wrong to be kicked for low DPS.  That isn't what I said.  What I said was this:

On 10/24/2022 at 10:49 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I know that this is a troll thread, but there is something I need to answer:

Because it is demanded by the other people necessary to complete the content.  

And to demonstrate this principal, I said this:

23 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The LFG groups do have this expectation, even if it isn't stated.  Want proof?  Join one as a DPS, and deliberately do bad DPS.  Watch what happens.  Hell, you can join a 30+ KP group and deliberately do bad DPS, and they'll also either kick or quit.

The quality judgement is yours and yours alone.  When it comes down to the requirements, I've nearly joined groups that had these requirements, but didn't list them anywhere directly in their recruitment ads.  It wasn't until I started talking with people in discord that they said they wanted to see logs benching some percentages against certain bosses.  Sometimes they'll just refuse to contact you back if they don't like your logs.  These expectations are so ubiquitous that they frequently go unsaid... until somebody has a problem with someone else.  You can proclaim these expectations to be as righteous as you want, but that in itself is a tacit admission that those expectations exist.  Those expectations may seem like common sense to us, but that is not the case for most of the playerbase.  The average player in this game does about 10% of the DPS of raiders (according to Anet themselves), so when one of these unaware players bumbles into a raid group it ends quite disastrously.   

Edited October 28, 2022 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Oh, so now it's "every static you've tried to join" (which still isn't correct to say that every static requires benchmark dps btw), but your initial claim wasn't about "how to join static", it was "what the content requires/is balanced around".

No it wasn't.

[Cynder.2509]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:26 PM, Dean.3056 said:

How about you gt gud instead of complaining ?

 

As an elitist raider its not like I woke one morning and broke the keyboard due to some rotation, I learned from experience and had the mindset to improve my own game style instead of role playing as a carpet and begging for a res or getting carried by skillful people...

Finally someone gets it! This is a huge issue with almost the entire playerbase. Everyone is just too casual and wants the game to be made even much more casual. That's why raids, that are already far too easy in comparison to other MMOs, are being ruined. If more people want to get in then they should stop whining and stop getting carried all the time. 
Learn stuff by yourself instead of wasting people's time! Every other of us 2012 veterans had to learn all of the stuff by ourselves too. It's so easy nowadays when you can just google guides or go to the kitten wiki. Stop asking in chat. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

15 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, what exactly is "bad dps" then? While responding to this question, keep in mind that your claim was about optimal dps being required to play/complete this content.

 

And about this "that's not what I said" post:

You've avoided -intentionally or not, irrelevant- the actual start of the conversation, in this case there was a discussion about whether or not optimal/top performance is needed with your first response being:

If top performance is needed to complete the content, it means every group requires absolute top performance, but vast majority clearly just doesn't. DPS reqs are not listed and people don't generally somehow go out of their way to check other players' dps in order for them to join a group. So stop moving the goalposts now, that's what you were arguing about and that's what is easly false. Top/optimal performance isn't required in this content: not by its design and not even by the general playerbase participating in it. 

You mean to tell me that, for the past several days of our "nuh-uh ya-huh" dance, you just didn't get the idea of community enforced standards?  "Low DPS" is defined by whomever is creating the group and/or is willing to complain about it.  The most stringent standards I've seen are 95% benchmark requirements, which I would argue are bad because they preclude anyone without full ascended + infusions + food.  Lowest I had seen was 85%, but someone else mentioned seeing a 75% earlier in this thread, and I'll presume for the sake of argument they weren't lying.  I never moved any goalposts; you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, then asserting this is a some kind of logical fallacy when the words you've shoved in my mouth don't make sense when compared all the words I actually said.  It is obvious that I was talking about community enforced standards from the start.  It didn't come here to derail the thread, which is why I said it in but one, simple, sentence, for it is an aspect of this game that is very much real yet deliberately neglected by the likes of you.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You mean to tell me that, for the past several days of our "nuh-uh ya-huh" dance, you just didn't get the idea of community enforced standards?  "Low DPS" is defined by whomever is creating the group and/or is willing to complain about it.  The most stringent standards I've seen are 95% benchmark requirements, which I would argue are bad because they preclude anyone without full ascended + infusions + food.  Lowest I had seen was 85%, but someone else mentioned seeing a 75% earlier in this thread, and I'll presume for the sake of argument they weren't lying.  I never moved any goalposts; you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, then asserting this is a some kind of logical fallacy when the words you've shoved in my mouth don't make sense when compared all the words I actually said.  It is obvious that I was talking about community enforced standards from the start.  It didn't come here to derail the thread, which is why I said it in but one, simple, sentence, for it is an aspect of this game that is very much real yet deliberately neglected by the likes of you.

Okay, then explain the 70-80% playerbase in the millions of logs which we have access to which do not produce those 85% and above benchmarks? On a regular basis mind you, the phenomenon is ongoing.

According to your logic, those players would get weeded out because no one is willing to play with them, yet the opposite is the case, they make up the bulk of the raiding population.

Going beyond that, and taking into account the entire amount of logs we have access to, explain the failed logs with even weaker players. Which would qualify double as not getting taken along.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Bakeneko.5826]

15 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

There is no toxicity in OW. Everything is nice. There is no toxicity in OW.
Glances at map chat after meta fail.

Never said there wasn't. But good for you.

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Cynder.2509 said:

Finally someone gets it! This is a huge issue with almost the entire playerbase. Everyone is just too casual and wants the game to be made even much more casual. That's why raids, that are already far too easy in comparison to other MMOs, are being ruined. If more people want to get in then they should stop whining and stop getting carried all the time. 
Learn stuff by yourself instead of wasting people's time! Every other of us 2012 veterans had to learn all of the stuff by ourselves too. It's so easy nowadays when you can just google guides or go to the kitten wiki. Stop asking in chat. 

The part I bolded is such an absurd claim I'm questioning if your post is satire. It's an MMO, you learned collectively, you can't help it. And even in single player games back in the earlier era of video games, there was gamefaqs and the like, and before that, there were manuals that came with video games.

It's complete mythology to act like early GW2 players had to learn everything themselves, and that's not even getting into the rest of the implication, that they are somehow more competent players for it (another myth).

It's easy nowadays to do a web search for information on just about any subject imaginable and if you have no idea how to contextualize that information, it's easy to adopt habits that will kitten your learning for years to come. Knowledge and guidance direct from somebody experienced is invaluable and the culture of "just google it" actually worsens skill overall. If you want the playerbase to be better, you are actively fighting against that cause by telling people to read a wiki instead of giving them help in chat.

People do not become more skilled through trial by fire, fumbling in the dark alone and confused, which seems to be the crux of the myth you are propagating. They become more skilled through an active learning process which can involve jumping in or taking it slow, but ideally comes with mentorship; I know mentorship is a lot to ask in this context though (loose connections with complete strangers), so even a little guidance can work wonders if they are open to it. And if they are open to it, that's already half the battle right there and you should be jumping at the opportunity. After all, one of the things people with your type of complaints complain about is players not being willing to take advice on how to improve. So why in the world would you want to chase them away to a wiki when they ask a question; at that point, you're asking them to be a closed off loner who won't listen.

[Warscythes.9307]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It would help to read my previous posts when talking to me.  I've mentioned Raid Academy twice already.  There may have been a recent revival, but last time I had checked the place was pretty dead.  I would see two, maybe three training runs being run a day, against a single boss in a single wing.  All of those "pings" frequently fail to get off the ground, or end in outright failure.  This is why I said before that the number of training runs being ran on discord is closer to one dozen a week.  I doubt there's thousands upon thousands of raids being run a week, let alone raid training.  

Also, don't be a hypocrite.  You chastise me on speaking for others when that is what is being done to me in this thread over and over again.  To wit, I never said there was something wrong with kicking a player who has ultra-low DPS.  You bring that up as a contrarian point, shoving the assertion into my mouth that it was wrong to be kicked for low DPS.  That isn't what I said.  What I said was this:

And to demonstrate this principal, I said this:

The quality judgement is yours and yours alone.  When it comes down to the requirements, I've nearly joined groups that had these requirements, but didn't list them anywhere directly in their recruitment ads.  It wasn't until I started talking with people in discord that they said they wanted to see logs benching some percentages against certain bosses.  Sometimes they'll just refuse to contact you back if they don't like your logs.  These expectations are so ubiquitous that they frequently go unsaid... until somebody has a problem with someone else.  You can proclaim these expectations to be as righteous as you want, but that in itself is a tacit admission that those expectations exist.  Those expectations may seem like common sense to us, but that is not the case for most of the playerbase.  The average player in this game does about 10% of the DPS of raiders (according to Anet themselves), so when one of these unaware players bumbles into a raid group it ends quite disastrously.   

Raid Academy is dead? You sure you are looking at the right one? They are fairly active throughout the years. There's around 10+ training/practice runs alone today from what I can tell. Even at the lowest point they still do a decent number. You can literally just go in right now and read through the posts. I can't go to the period of time that you are talking about and then check the training pings during that time because god knows if even you remember. You are just going to have to trust me on this one and check it out yourself.

Also I feel you are not understanding the point of training runs, is ok for runs to fails, not every raid is meant to succeed. That is completely fine as long as people learned. Isn't that the entire purpose which is to learn? RA is not a pure LFG discord. Is ok to be bad or have low dps or low boon or whatever, but as long as you can improve then is fine. No I don't think there's thousands of raids being run a week in raid training. I am fairly certain is referred to the number of runs in total. I am not really sure where you got that from. 

Also why can't I chastise you for it? You are the only person that is telling me doing something that I didn't do. Of course I am going to point out that what you did is wrong, why would I randomly talk to somebody that I don't feel the need to speak with? Also just because others are doing it doesn't mean is right for you to do.

So ultimately you agree that groups should kick very underperforming players, of which low dps is certainly one possible reason for underperforming. Great. But the existence of RA and its activity still shows that most of the runs have pretty lax requirement though barring things like GITV, HTCM or KOCM runs. I see KP fairly regularly in LFG, but bench is very very very rarely required as I mentioned before. Yes I think most people expect people to be able to perform the basics of their role and it sounds like you agree as well. So what is the problem? 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You mean to tell me that, for the past several days of our "nuh-uh ya-huh" dance, you just didn't get the idea of community enforced standards?  "Low DPS" is defined by whomever is creating the group and/or is willing to complain about it.  The most stringent standards I've seen are 95% benchmark requirements, which I would argue are bad because they preclude anyone without full ascended + infusions + food.  Lowest I had seen was 85%, but someone else mentioned seeing a 75% earlier in this thread, and I'll presume for the sake of argument they weren't lying.  I never moved any goalposts; you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, then asserting this is a some kind of logical fallacy when the words you've shoved in my mouth don't make sense when compared all the words I actually said.  It is obvious that I was talking about community enforced standards from the start.  It didn't come here to derail the thread, which is why I said it in but one, simple, sentence, for it is an aspect of this game that is very much real yet deliberately neglected by the likes of you.

Mate, you can just go in the RA static recruitment post right now and check. Is like 2 minutes, you don't have to assume anything. The part of the post is as below, you can just search for it. I was just counting back the 10 most recent recruitment posts.

 

Requirements: - Comfortable with most raid bosses. - Show up consistently on time (let us know in advance about any changes). - Must have Discord (voice chat isn't mandatory). - Semi-Competitive DPS (at least 1 condi and power DPS that can hit 75%+ of bench). - We're all adults and expect everyone to act as such. No antagonizing people.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:29 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No it wasn't.

Yes, it was. You've jumped in the middle of the "what's needed to play the content" discussion, where it was initially about "what it's balanced around" (and the fact is: it's not balanced anywhere near the top/optimal performance) and proclaimed that "top/perfect performance is needed to play this content" because some players look for it. It was directly addressed right away in my response there:

 

After which you kept pretending it's somehow still a requirement to have that top/optimal performance to join the groups. But it very clearly isn't. Then -on this page- you've tried pivoting into "but statics require it!" and even with that -now changed- take, still very clearly not all statics require optimal/top performance at all. Which part of this do you not agree with exactly?

 

On 10/28/2022 at 7:55 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You mean to tell me that, for the past several days of our "nuh-uh ya-huh" dance, you just didn't get the idea of community enforced standards?  "Low DPS" is defined by whomever is creating the group and/or is willing to complain about it. 

Oh wow, so after arguing how top/optimal performance is needed for a few pages, now you're backpedalling into "it depends on the group", which is something you've initially denied with "No. It means it is required" when I wrote "Which still doesn't make it "required to complete the content", but instead at most maybe "required to get into some limited groups"."

I didn't somehow "not get the idea that requirements vary between the groups", that's exactly the point as opposed to you constantly pretending top/optimal performance is needed to play it (just because a limited amount of groups might strive for it). From the very start you've attempted to make a false generalized claim that in reality isn't even near to being a majority. Which is why Top/optimal performance isn't required in this content: not by its design and not even by the general playerbase participating in it.

On 10/28/2022 at 7:55 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

you're deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, then asserting this is a some kind of logical fallacy when the words you've shoved in my mouth don't make sense when compared all the words I actually said.

If that's what you actually think then you simply don't remember where this discussion started, so you should go back and re-read it. Or simply look what I quoted above, because that's what it was. No amount of pretending that's not what you said will change what you actually said there and what you've denied from the start.

On 10/28/2022 at 7:55 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

for it is an aspect of this game that is very much real yet deliberately neglected by the likes of you.

Neglected by the likes of me how? By participating in pug groups without dps requirements? I think you have it a little backwards here, to the point this weird personal remark attempt simply doesn't make sense at all. 🤦‍♂️

Edited October 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758