Want to roll an Ele, but am i wasting my time?

[Chyro.1462]

18 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

If you just want to play open world PvE (not raids, fractals, strikes) it's fine roll celestial stats run fire/air/X (replace x with your choice) and it's zzzz ezmode for the most part

 

Think you can run celestial ele for fractals, strikes and some raids (not the ones with toughness tank mechanics .. unless you learn those and play as tank. or have a tank that out-stats your cele gear's toughness). As a alac/heal support tempest - with cele gear + boon/heal sigils / runes. Depending on the needs of the party, you can trait into more damage or into more support. (most support is water + arcane, but can run water + air or water + fire too or even air + fire if the party has little need for healing other than topping them up now and then). And works great for open world too, fairly tanky (thanks to high uptime on boosted protection and cele stats) high sustain and okayish damage - which all the boons and alac you give to others during bigger events make up for.

[Joxer.6024]

1 hour ago, Chyro.1462 said:

 

Think you can run celestial ele for fractals, strikes and some raids (not the ones with toughness tank mechanics .. unless you learn those and play as tank. or have a tank that out-stats your cele gear's toughness). As a alac/heal support tempest - with cele gear + boon/heal sigils / runes. Depending on the needs of the party, you can trait into more damage or into more support. (most support is water + arcane, but can run water + air or water + fire too or even air + fire if the party has little need for healing other than topping them up now and then). And works great for open world too, fairly tanky (thanks to high uptime on boosted protection and cele stats) high sustain and okayish damage - which all the boons and alac you give to others during bigger events make up for.

Yea Hardstuck has a Boosted tempest build and they were doing raids with it and many times it was top dps, go figure. But I wont be stepping into anything like until i learned (mastered) the class, for raids i will just go Soulbeast or something. 😉

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Yea Hardstuck has a Boosted tempest build and they were doing raids with it and many times it was top dps, go figure.

Can we see a proof of this? Mb some vid or smtn? I doubt a cele tempest could outdps full dps builds (both condi or power). 

[Vordrax.5243]

I like to bounce around in OW on various specs for fun. The Hardstuck Cele Tempest is easily one of my favorites to play around on. Lately I've been mainly slotting support to help out some friends who recently started the game back up. There is something very satisfying about starting in fire and stacking powerful burns, tossing out a couple of pets to help distract enemies, getting 20+ stacks of might and sharing it with everyone around you, throwing out Alacrity, all within the span of a few seconds. And when the situation calls for it, the shout heal+ Water attunement can erase mistakes. Only thing that is really annoying is that I fully agree with everyone that Alacrity should not only be applied at the end of an overcharge. That feels very clumsy and overly punitive if you are forced to interrupt it to react to something 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Vordrax.5243
Stupid phone swipe keyboard

[Joxer.6024]

18 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Can we see a proof of this? Mb some vid or smtn? I doubt a cele tempest could outdps full dps builds (both condi or power). 

go to Teapots twitch and go back I think 2 days? it will be there, and yea, it happened, he was shocked as well. I reckon the player was very good as well.

Oh, and they were all mostly on the "boosted" builds.

here ya go!!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1637914861

Edited November 1, 2022 by Joxer.6024

[zeyeti.8347]

I will just say , wait 2 weeks to see the next balance patch , ele "should" be in the spot , cause it is one (if not the most ) underplayed class in pve endgame .

And i am also a "previously" ele main , class is hard , not rewarding for the effort you do , you are super squishy if you commit fully to a specific role (like dps , boondps), a lot of traits dont synergize well with other (clean condi in fire ,... pyromancer puissance being one the weirdest/useless trait of all the game ,..) can talk an hour about ele , but i wnat to keep my sanity , but there is a  lot to "puk" about , wait 2 weeks , maybe it's gonna shine ...

[soulknight.9620]

17 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

go to Teapots twitch and go back I think 2 days? it will be there, and yea, it happened, he was shocked as well. I reckon the player was very good as well.

Oh, and they were all mostly on the "boosted" builds.

here ya go!!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1637914861

Yeah, the problem is that it was a raid full of cele builds. So no pure dps builds. In this context sure, ele has an advantage cause its hybrid by design. I thought you meant that cele tempest outdpsed pure dps specs in a regular run. That got me curious. 

Although still a nice insight. Ty for the link. 

[Animism.7530]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:46 PM, Joxer.6024 said:

because thats braindead and boring as...but at least you gave some valid reasons, unlike the "longtime ele player", so thanks!

Because it isn't viable? 
Not disagreeing with the fact Mechanist is overly simplistic. 

Don't act like you didn't just sarcastically comment to me in the first place. There was no reason for me to give you any reasons, as you didn't even ask

What do you want me to do, write a summary for every snide comment? 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Joxer.6024]

1 minute ago, Animism.7530 said:

Because it isn't viable? 
Not disagreeing with the fact Mechanist is overly simplistic. 

Don't act like you didn't just sarcastically comment to me in the first place. There was no reason for me to give you any reasons, as 1) You didn't even ask, and 2) I wasn't even talking to you, but replying to the OP. 

What do you want me to do, write a summary for every snide comment? 

mate i am the OP, and my comment stands. instead of just popping in with "cuz they suck", how about some reasons as to why? Others did, and the info was very helpful. Being an Ele main i reckon you would have loads of info, either good or bad, thats all i asked for. 

[Sahne.6950]

Ele is awesome currently.

No bullshitting right here:

Build a Celestialtempest.

Scepter/Warhorn for PVE.

Dagger/focus for PvP/WvW.

 

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/booster-tempest/

This thing right here can be used in all types of content.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Animism.7530]

11 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

mate i am the OP, and my comment stands. instead of just popping in with "cuz they suck", how about some reasons as to why? Others did, and the info was very helpful. Being an Ele main i reckon you would have loads of info, either good or bad, thats all i asked for. 

I edited it immediately, check again.

Why don't you look around this subreddit instead of asking everyone to summarise what's already been mentioned a million times? 

Here's an interesting point for you re: the celestial tempest build. 
Go to 1:56:00. Notice Teapots health on Mechanist? Notice the Tempest on ArcDPS? 

Yeah... Do you need me to point out what's going on there as well? They are all on Celestial and that doesn't translate well in reality.
The reason the Tempest is higher than the others is because the Ele bars benefit more from a mix of Power and Condition.  

That build is not good. Period. Just because you can do raid bosses in full Traveller runes and Cele gear on any class, doesn't make it a good build. Nor is Teapot being honest. 
It wouldn't be anywhere near the top DPS if they weren't messing around with rubbish builds. But did you really need me to tell you that? 

If anything, this just shows me how suggestible people are and how little they understand about builds. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Joxer.6024]

6 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

I edited it immediately, check again.

Why don't you look around this subreddit instead of asking everyone to summarise what's already been mentioned a million times? 

Here's an interesting point for you re: the celestial tempest build. 
Go to 1:56:00. Notice Teapots health on Mechanist? Notice the Tempest on ArcDPS? 

Yeah... Do you need me to point out what's going on there as well? They are all on Celestial and that doesn't translate well in reality.
The reason the Tempest is higher than the others is because the Ele bars benefit more from a mix of Power and Condition.  

That build is not good. Period. Just because you can do raid bosses in full Traveller runes and Cele gear on any class, doesn't make it a good build. Nor is Teapot being honest. 
It wouldn't be anywhere near the top DPS if they weren't messing around with rubbish builds. But did you really need me to tell you that? 

If anything, this just shows me how suggestible people are and how little they understand about builds. 

Lol, I realize the whole thing is a meme, and their boosted builds are just to help people ease into the class. Never did i say I would try a raid on one, Im not stupid. And yes, everything you mentioned i am aware. And how do you know i didnt cruise the reddit as well? I get it, you're a pissed off Ele main and rightfully so, but man dont drop your class hate on me. If you cant help or simply dont want to, dont, all good. Peace

[Animism.7530]

 

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Can we see a proof of this? Mb some vid or smtn? I doubt a cele tempest could outdps full dps builds (both condi or power). 

 

1 hour ago, Joxer.6024 said:

go to Teapots twitch and go back I think 2 days? it will be there, and yea, it happened, he was shocked as well. I reckon the player was very good as well.

Oh, and they were all mostly on the "boosted" builds.

here ya go!!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1637914861

 

10 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Lol, I realize the whole thing is a meme, and their boosted builds are just to help people ease into the class. Never did i say I would try a raid on one, Im not stupid. And yes, everything you mentioned i am aware. And how do you know i didnt cruise the reddit as well? I get it, you're a pissed off Ele main and rightfully so, but man dont drop your class hate on me. If you cant help or simply dont want to, dont, all good. Peace

 

Do you really? That's not how your comments read. 
Which are you? A new Elementalist or suddenly really experienced on the subject? 

The Cele build will not outperform a DPS build. There, does that answer it? 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Vordrax.5243]

12 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Just because you can do raid bosses in full Traveller runes and Cele gear on any class, doesn't make it a good build

Perhaps not, but if the content can be cleared with these "bad builds" then isn't it possible that what the community considers good or bad has more to do with perception than reality?

[Animism.7530]

1 minute ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Perhaps not, but if the content can be cleared with these "bad builds" then isn't it possible that what the community considers good or bad has more to do with perception than reality?

In principle, yes; in reality no. 

The meta dictates how groups form - I could say if raids can be cleared with brand new players learning as they go, is it possible that they're all fine joining experienced groups? 

I half agree with you, but half disagree. 
 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Tempest probably isn't the best pick for raids, but sc/f Weaver is honestly an easy build to pull off and deals a good amount of dps. Only downside is the slow build up time on your dps due to your glyph of lesser elementals and long burning duration of dragons tooth and signet of Fire. 

 

Its ranged dps, offers some extra defenses due to earth traits, doesn't have a strict rotation, not to high APM, only uses 2 attunements and can quite comfortably hit 35k+ on Golem. Got like 32k dps on sabetha and 34k on MO last week. 

 

Sure its not the 38-42k snowcrows can hit on bench, but it's definitely enough for raids. It would be nice if ele would get a couple more reliable dps builds for more power oriented bosses though.

[Joxer.6024]

27 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

 

 

 

 

Do you really? That's not how your comments read. 
Which are you? A new Elementalist or suddenly really experienced on the subject? 

The Cele build will not outperform a DPS build. There, does that answer it? 

where at any point did i say i was going to raid on a cele build, let alone a Ele? Dude, bye bye. you aint worth it mate.

[Animism.7530]

4 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Its ranged dps, offers some extra defenses due to earth traits, doesn't have a strict rotation, not to high APM, only uses 2 attunements and can quite comfortably hit 35k+ on Golem. Got like 32k dps on sabetha and 34k on MO last week. 

 

Sure its not the 38-42k snowcrows can hit on bench, but it's definitely enough for raids. It would be nice if ele would get a couple more reliable dps builds for more power oriented bosses though.

They are all useable, even Reaper. The problem is not everyone will like you using the latter, and in the case of Ele; it's a lot of effort for little to no benefit, if it's not literally crippling your performance. 

I've been playing Mech because it is strong, versatile and incredibly easy to play. Contrasting this with the fact the somewhat counterpart Ele build (Ranged staff Ele PDPS) was nerfed into the ground and, in a sense, replaced by this build; you have a recipe for serious annoyance amongst fans of the former. That's only one part of the issue also. 

I don't mean to place my annoyance on others, but I'm also being deliberately blunt as I honestly don't have time for pleasantries and meandering around topics. 

Hopefully in the coming weeks Anet buffs Ele up to a similar level; though there are people on the forums who would claim it is impossible, so I won't get my hopes up. 

[poop.4183]

Atm ele isnt in a good spot , will see after balance team goes around it , have high hopes for it , the buffs they gave to druid is amazing , and i am pretty sure now it heals way more than  the others healers and at 1200 range ! just hope the ele get the same treatment , and not only for his support part , ... but atm it's in a bad spot , there is no reason to take it as dps , some classes do way better with more ease and with more sustain. And as support , well it could be a long explanation but it lacks a lot of things others dont lack .

But if it is just for fun , go on , it is indeed fun to play .

Edited November 1, 2022 by poop.4183

[the krytan assassin.9235]

1 hour ago, Animism.7530 said:

The problem is not everyone will like you using the latter, and in the case of Ele; it's a lot of effort for little to no benefit, if it's not literally crippling your performance. 

Lets not pretend sc/f is a high effort build. Its literally spamming 8 weapon skills and all your utilities off cd. Skill rotations barely even matters at all. Sure if you try to min max every single skill rotation it will become abit harder and you might be able to get an extra 2-3k dps in. Even with suboptimal skill rotation you can comfortably hit high dps numbers. 36k dps on a simplified dps rotation is actually quite good atm. The full rotation currently hits 38k on Golem while using glyph of elemental power instead of glyph of lesser elementals, so actual Golem dps would be around 39.5k instead which places itself at rank 5 on snowcrows bench scores. 

[Animism.7530]

12 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Lets not pretend sc/f is a high effort build. Its literally spamming 8 weapon skills and all your utilities off cd. Skill rotations barely even matters at all. Sure if you try to min max every single skill rotation it will become abit harder and you might be able to get an extra 2-3k dps in. Even with suboptimal skill rotation you can comfortably hit high dps numbers. 36k dps on a simplified dps rotation is actually quite good atm. The full rotation currently hits 38k on Golem while using glyph of elemental power instead of glyph of lesser elementals, so actual Golem dps would be around 39.5k instead which places itself at rank 5 on snowcrows bench scores. 

Compared to mechanist spamming 4 skills up to max range with more survivability and casual utility. 

[Vordrax.5243]

3 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

In principle, yes; in reality no. 

The meta dictates how groups form - I could say if raids can be cleared with brand new players learning as they go, is it possible that they're all fine joining experienced groups? 

I half agree with you, but half disagree. 

 

Fair enough - if the perception is affecting people (for better or worse) then it's relevant, regardless of the veracity. I would add, though, that it becomes even more incumbent upon regular forum posters to exercise caution when engaging in hyperbole (not accusing you), because for every 1 poster, there are countless lurkers who latch onto that hyperbole until it becomes ingrained in the community. This in turn kinda fosters toxic optimization where "not the absolute best" becomes synonymous with "not viable." I think newer Elementalist players have, in particular, been steered away by the notion that the only meaningful way to play the game is to go full glass cannon, and if you have a bad time, it's because Elementalist is a bad class and/or you're a bad player. In my WoW raiding guild we used to have this saying that taking risks is fine but your DPS is zero when you're dead, so I am all for suggesting players keep survivability in mind when gearing up.

That being said, I'd like to make it clear that I am 100% in the "Elementalist needs some of its foundational concepts to be revisited for QoL and power level increases" camp. The go-forward design guidelines seem to suggest that specs should have a reasonable baseline performance that can ease newer players in, while offering reasonable increases in performance as the player takes on a higher complexity of gameplay. So hopefully we'll see baseline Elementalist see a fair increase in survivability (in addition to some in-game tutorialization on gearing up, which is actually supremely complex in Guild Wars 2 if you don't do outside research.)

Edited November 1, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[poop.4183]

3 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Lets not pretend sc/f is a high effort build. Its literally spamming 8 weapon skills and all your utilities off cd. Skill rotations barely even matters at all. Sure if you try to min max every single skill rotation it will become abit harder and you might be able to get an extra 2-3k dps in. Even with suboptimal skill rotation you can comfortably hit high dps numbers. 36k dps on a simplified dps rotation is actually quite good atm. The full rotation currently hits 38k on Golem while using glyph of elemental power instead of glyph of lesser elementals, so actual Golem dps would be around 39.5k instead which places itself at rank 5 on snowcrows bench scores. 

Oke but snowcrow bench number 1 is untamed with 43k , and we all know what untamed is able to do on a non responsive pinata , he will not be able to do it in a real combat , still sc/f seems pretty strong on the bench but is underwhelming in real combat encounters has no pierce attack and is stuck at 600/900 range , with little survivability , very few hp and the papier maché armor , while the top dps played are played for a reason , mech/virtuoso have amazing range , have a lot of pierce , and great sustain , have 5000 hp more base than ele . Thats the question asked , if you play for fun go with whatever suits you , if you asking about super efficient , the ele is not the way to go ... atm ... greatttt hopes on patches for all the classes and e-specs left in the abyss.

Ofc all classes can't be top all the time and all together , buffing something will surely negatively impact the player base of another class. But ele is been in a fairly bad state for a long time now.

Edited November 1, 2022 by poop.4183

[Guybrush.4762]

Long story short there is currently some quite decent elementalists build regardless of the game mode you are interested in but they generally requires more effort than average especially if you are new to elementalist. The builds I will list bellow are currently in good shape even though some of them could probably use a few buff/adjustment.

PvE :

1. [HEALER] Heal Alacrity Tempest - nice heals and good boons ; lack stability and fury to really tackle on other healers, contrary to other healer this build has a rigid rotation structure, you can't just use skills when you feel like it
2. [DPS] Condition Scepter-focus Weaver - good damage ; the rotation is spammy and fast paced, it is reliant on being at melee range because of Primordial stance, it is a bit fragile and the weave self rotation is complex but you can simplify it by a ton by taking Glyph of Elementals instead

WvW :

1. [ZERG and ROAM, SUPPORT] Heal Cleanse Tempest - Really good heal and cleanses, auras are good to have, tags a lot of bags for a support ; other people struggle to understand your class and mostly ignore you as a result even commanders (it is fine because healing and cleansing is something you can do autonomously but sometimes calls can make the difference and comms are not tempest ready yet).
2. [ZERG, DPS] Staff weaver - Very good sustained damage, good cc and can survive on his own, really shine during fights where movement is restricted (like inside towers and keeps) ; Does not have the utility of other DPS build, kinda falls off in open terrain, remember what I have said about people not understanding Heal cleanse tempest? Yeah... it is even worse for staff weaver.
3. [ROAM] Celestial elementalist - All specs kinda works there for weapons, the most classic are Double dagger for Tempest and Castalyst, Hammer for Catalyst, and Sword Focus for Weaver. All specs have their pros and cons.

PvP :

1. Support tempest - Great tool box to impact fight ; kinda fragile if you get caught and reliant on active defense tool as a result
2. Catalyst sidenoder - Stability on aura is great but the duration is fairly low, otherwise decent

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Guybrush.4762

[Animism.7530]

2 hours ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

 

Fair enough - if the perception is affecting people (for better or worse) then it's relevant, regardless of the veracity. I would add, though, that it becomes even more incumbent upon regular forum posters to exercise caution when engaging in hyperbole (not accusing you), because for every 1 poster, there are countless lurkers who latch onto that hyperbole until it becomes ingrained in the community. This in turn kinda fosters toxic optimization where "not the absolute best" becomes synonymous with "not viable." I think newer Elementalist players have, in particular, been steered away by the notion that the only meaningful way to play the game is to go full glass cannon, and if you have a bad time, it's because Elementalist is a bad class and/or you're a bad player. In my WoW raiding guild we used to have this saying that taking risks is fine but your DPS is zero when you're dead, so I am all for suggesting players keep survivability in mind when gearing up.

That being said, I'd like to make it clear that I am 100% in the "Elementalist needs some of its foundational concepts to be revisited for QoL and power level increases" camp. The go-forward design guidelines seem to suggest that specs should have a reasonable baseline performance that can ease newer players in, while offering reasonable increases in performance as the player takes on a higher complexity of gameplay. So hopefully we'll see baseline Elementalist see a fair increase in survivability (in addition to some in-game tutorialization on gearing up, which is actually supremely complex in Guild Wars 2 if you don't do outside research.)

The meta culture is really just the culture of MMOs and how group content is designed. The same issue wasn't really present in GW1 until you came to Speedclear parties, which was a remarkably small aspect of the game as most content could be solo'd with heroes; and as such there was great variety and personal build designs. 

You can take this idea of metas and apply it to other types of games, like FPS', Warzone loadouts for instance, but you can literally play with anything there. Even Runescape you can solo most content and play how you want. The problem is group content. I remember grouping up with people for Hell's Precipice back in Prophecies, because the henchmen were so poor and we needed to group up together; pretty much anything at that point in the game was a boon and our choices were limited, which gave an impression that it was always a benefit to play with others. This is what I'd call the core perception issue - people need to feel that the people they are playing with are a value in some way, around an equal footing to a slightly greater or lesser extent. We could bring up running a third healer for example; you'll have practically absolute support but be wasting time, and most groups in any MMO will not want perceived unnecessary time waste. 
 

My own personal reasons to recommend certain builds over others is that you'll become accustomed to a style of gameplay that doesn't translate well to different situations, often you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. You can literally play glass cannon builds everywhere in this game and succeed where you're supposed to (though Ele will struggle by far the most, to stay on topic).
A good comparison here would be attempting to solo a difficult group event champion; the glass cannon build would often be near impossible, whereas a tanky build may be possible but would ultimately be a time waste, as the content wasn't designed to be solo'd and the rewards will be skewed the same way. However in contrast, a tanky build might struggle to take down a veteran mob, or take far too long to do it; whereas a glass cannon build will have the ability to burst it down and will learn the individual skills to a greater degree when they struggle (like the value of blinds). 

It's fairly obvious to the reader I dislike where Ele is in the game - and to sum up my views neatly, I don't even dislike Mechanist, I just wish I could play as an Elementalist and achieve similar results to what Mech is doing; as I simply like the idea of playing an Ele. You can find many on the forums who like playing Reaper and want a little bit more DPS to not feel they're wasting their own time; which I completely sympathise with. It's not an idea that everything has to perform the same, but be competitive; and simultaneously I would rather things have niche benefits than be completely homogenised. I can't think of a single benefit for me to play Ele, not even the minor DPS numbers that I could achieve for a few more presses as a pianist where dexterity is in no way an issue; being aware that the difference amounts to mere seconds and I'm not usually interested in the idea of record runs. 

I don't mind low intensity builds; but I don't like that my favourite archetypal class and weapon has been destroyed in favour of others taking its place; that's my own personal gripe with Ele at the moment. It has its own problems with survivability as you mention, a lack of comparably LI builds and ranged combat (to Mechanist, for example), while barely outpacing its DPS; and that is just sad for one of the core professions of the series. There is too much we can discuss about the topic really and I could be here all night happily writing about it; but it'd almost be endless and I hope the game designers listen to all feedback and look through it carefully. 

Essentially, to new players I couldn't recommend anything but playing the easiest and most versatile builds that are available; and that just happens to be the likes of Mech at the moment and not one is on Ele; unless we start blurring the lines of what I mentioned above.