[State of the Thief] 2022 Balance Edition

[saerni.2584]

We've come a long way since the release of End of Dragons. We've seen a balance and design philosophy posted for the first time and CMC has taken the reins of the Skills and Balance Team. We have also seen the limits of the new EoD specializations tested in various ways and some major changes in both design and balance from Anet. It has been a year since the last “State of the Thief” thread where I attempted to combine our collective feedback into one cohesive document. And Patch Notes are Coming (Nov 11). Once again, in light of the stated desire of Anet to receive continued feedback from the community, it is time for that kind of comprehensive analysis and cooperative effort by our subset of the Guild Wars 2 community.

To begin, I want to briefly discuss the “State of the Thief” in terms of Gameplay Roles and Combat/Build Complexity. Then, in subsequent posts, I will look at a number of Thief skills and trait lines overall synergy and lack thereof, with an eye towards what can be changed to improve their design and balance. Along the way, I would ask that posters in the thread contribute their own ideas towards balance so that those can be read by Anet/integrated into the State of the Thief. In each case, I will be making references to the Game Balancing Philosophy and every attempt will be made to norm suggestions made by both myself and the broader community with the Balance Philosophy that Anet has published. I'm going to focus mainly on smaller changes rather than full reworks.

I'd encourage contributions by others to also include references to the Balance Philosophy. I cannot possibly cover everything and my ideas are not the best/only ones for how to balance Thief. Please do contribute if you think of something. As I go, and I'd encourage this for everyone, suggestions will be posted in the following format:

Issues. Suggestions. Explanation. Balance Citations. For reference, the Balance Philosophy citations are (1) Purity of Purpose (“PoP”), (2) Holes in Roles (“HiR”), (3) Power Budget (“PB”), (4) Counterplay, and (5) Diversity – a/k/a “Minimizing Bad Choices.” Bonus category: Quality of Life ("QoL").

Edited November 9, 2022 by saerni.2584

[saerni.2584]

Thief Gameplay Roles

Thief has traditionally been designed towards two archetypes, Damage and Mobility. Specter brought two additional archetypes into play, alacrity Boon Support and Healing. However, for many years Thief has struggled on DPS comparative benchmarks and design changes elsewhere have made Thief, a “selfish” DPS Profession, less desirable than the alternatives for this fundamental Role. Likewise, as more and more Professions have gained in Mobility-type abilities Thief no longer is the only/best choice for the Mobility oriented role (“Roamer” in the WvW and sPvP contexts). Gaining access to a Boon Support and Healing role has again presented this familiar problem in that other Professions tend to do Alacrity or Healing to a full group far more simply (giving those Professions more flexibility to take other skills and, more importantly, to play without spamming on cooldown to achieve the desired outcome). As Thief has gained more potential roles, the risk has increased of becoming a “Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None” Profession.

“Core” Specializations and Initiative

Thief has been dependent on the Trickery Specialization because of how Preparedness increases the total Initiative pool available by 3 points. This increase impacts everything from weapon skill costs to how much damage individual skills can do. However, it should be noted that Trickery's Kleptomaniac and Quick Pockets traits also focus on increasing Initiative (in both cases through regeneration). Although it has been popular to request “Preparedness” baseline, the more salient concern is Initiative regeneration rather than Initiative pool when it comes to managing your Initiative Pool.

Edited November 6, 2022 by saerni.2584

[saerni.2584]

Trickery:

Burst of Agility. Issues: Lesser Haste has uselessly retained a Stun Break effect as a carry over from the utility version of this skill. Lesser Haste has a very long cooldown compared to the utility version. Suggestions: 1) Remove the Stun Break from Lesser Haste. 2) Reduce the cooldown to 25 seconds in PvE and 45 seconds in sPvP and WvW. 3) Set the base Quickness duration to 4 seconds in PvE and 2 seconds in sPvP and WvW. Explanations: The Stun Break isn't used because the flanking trigger won't happen when the Thief is disabled, and shouldn't be included for that reason. Balance-wise, the focus should be on increasing usability (lower cooldown) and effectiveness (lower Quickness duration to balance the reduced cooldown. The suggested cooldown is on the higher-end of what will probably “feel good” to play. Citations: PB, Diversity.

Shadow Arts:

Hidden Thief. Issues: 1) Hidden Thief is a much weaker choice than Shielding Restoration (AoE Barrier on Heal) and Shadow's Embrace (Stealth based Condi-Damage cleanse). Suggestions: 1) Swap the effects, so Stealing inflicts Weakness and Stealth attacks apply Blind. Explanations: Stealth Attacks, many in melee range, are better served with a short duration Blind to avoid retaliation than by applying Weakness. Steal, by contrast, is much better suited to quickly interrupting or otherwise disrupting an attack (via boon-rip, daze, or teleportation out of danger). Using “Steal” to blunt the momentum of an incoming sequence of attacks is well served by a condition like Weakness that Fumbles. Citations: PB, Diversity

Cover of Shadow. Issues: 1) This trait is effective for self support, however because Thief doesn't often apply Stealth to others as part of regular play (doesn't have synergy with game play) this support oriented trait feels half-baked in comparison to the other Grandmaster traits. Suggestions: 1) This trait now also applies Protection on Heal (up to 5 targets, 360 distance, duration 5 seconds. Explanations: This trait needs to provide an easier method for granting allies Protection that fits with normal gameplay. This would have good synergy especially with Well of Gloom, reducing incoming damage on allies while they stay inside the Well to get the full heal). Citations: PB, Diversity

Acrobatics:

There are a number of “full rework” ideas for this line. I would encourage Anet to consider all of these, as there are a number of substantive issues, such as redundancy, that cannot always be addressed simply by tweaking a few traits. That said, again this State of the Thief is focused primarily on what exists “today” and what can be done within the restraints of that design.

Pain Response. Issues: 1) This trait, in a Specialization based around “not getting hit,” awkwardly rewards getting hit by triggering haphazardly when hit below 75% HP, which is unreliable. This trait is a remnant of a passive reward based design, making for a longer competitive cooldown of 60 seconds, which further impedes its usability/reliability as a cleanse. Suggestions: 1) Pain Response now applies Regeneration when the Thief is afflicted with a damaging condition below 75% health. (5 second duration, 10 second internal cooldown); 2) Pain Response now applies Resolution on successful evade (3 second duration, 5 second internal cooldown). Explanations: Pain Response needs to be active like Escapist's Fortitude without being redundant with that trait. Instead of competing with Escapist's Fortitude, Acrobatics can apply two boons, Regeneration and Resolution, which are both oriented around the Thief being more resilient to incoming condition damage while rewarding evades (both in avoiding incoming conditions and in making the Thief able to regenerate through what hits them. It also improves counter play through the possibility of boon removal. Citations: Counterplay, Diversity

Critical Strikes:

Keen Observer. Issues: 1) This Minor trait is inconsistent due to the high percentage of Health requirement, which makes the line less useful unless playing one-shot builds that don't tend to get hit. Suggestions: 1) Changed to Fury gives an increased critical chance (10%). Explanations: 1) Recent implementation of bonus % critical hit chance with Fury traits is an opportunity to use the same functionality to make Keen Observer more consistently useful. Citations: Diversity.

Edited November 6, 2022 by saerni.2584

[saerni.2584]

“Core” Weapons:

Disabling Shot. Issues: Disabling Shot provides a ½ second backwards Evade, 2 second Cripple, and small amount of damage for 4 Initiative in PvE and 5 Initiative in PvP/WvW. Disabling Shot doesn't integrate well with the Short Bow's other skills because the other options (damage, CC, teleport, have clearer use cases/value (and higher initiative costs). Suggestions: (1) Disabling Shot now bounces (or is a directional AoE with up to 5 arrows). Explanations: (1) Disabling Shot is a large investment of Initiative when several other skills on the Shortbow have high initiative costs. Making this skill potentially hit multiples improves the potential use cases without making the weapon too strong. Citations: Diversity

Infiltrator's Arrow. Issues: Infiltrator's Arrow's Initiative costs (6 PvE, 8 sPvP/WvW) are a little too high when taking the average Initiative pool into consideration. Suggestions: (1) Reduce the Initiative cost on Infiltrator's Arrow to 7 in PvP/WvW. Explanations: (1) No Thief weapon skill should, with the increases in base Initiative that are possible through taking the Trickery Specialization, be impossible to use twice in a row at full Initiative. Thief Initiative is designed to give the Thief the flexibility to use their weapon skills at any time without regard for individual cooldowns. Any time a skill cannot be used more than once in a row (at least while at maximum Initiative) effectively imposes an individual cooldown in violation of the basic design premise behind Initiative. Reducing the cost to 7 from 8 in PvP/WvW represents the maximum cost that should ever be imposed on an individual skill from that basic design perspective. Any further adjustments should come to the skill effect itself and not on the cost side. Citations: Diversity

Core Utilities:

Preparations. Preparations universally suffer from the built in “arming time” that makes them clunky to use in PvE and more difficult to successfully set up in sPvP and WvW. Suggestions: (1) Remove the arming time from all Preparations. Explanations: (1) Arming time makes the Preparations difficult to use in most situations, making an alternative utility preferred in almost all cases. This would be a quality of life improvement to these skills without needing to adjust damage/effect numbers individually to make the skills more appealing to players. Citations: Diversity

Venoms. There are some good suggestions in this thread.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by saerni.2584

[saerni.2584]

Deadeye Traits, Utilities, and Rifle

Collateral Damage. Issues: 1) This will often trigger on an isolated enemy and therefore not do any damage, making it a worse choice than the alternatives in the same tier. This issue applies equally to PvE and PvP/WvW making it an unpopular/dead trait selection. Suggestions: (1) Collateral Damage now triggers an AoE damage pulse on Stealth Attack on the Marked target, potentially scaling with Malice. Explanations: (1) Damage around a marked target being attacked is more useful than to trigger an AoE only after the target dies. Citations: PB, Diversity

Silent Scope. Issues: 1) Meld with Shadows (Shadow Arts) was recently changed to no longer grant an additional 1 second of Stealth duration, which means in competitive modes Silent Scope only provides 1 second of Stealth on dodge total. Shadow Arts traits built around Enter/Exit Stealth are thereby able to be triggered once every second, likely more than intended. Originally, with Meld with Shadows, there was actually time to line up a clear shot, today this is less functional. Suggestions: 1) Increase the duration of Silent Scope to 2 seconds of Stealth in competitive game-modes. Explanation: 1) This changes addresses a potential imbalance in the trait interactions between Shadow Arts and Silent Scope (Power Budget) and looks to maintain the Purity of Purpose of Silent Scope by allowing the same game play in all game modes. Citations: PoP, Diversity

Maleficent Seven. Issues: This trait does too many things at once. Might and Fury combined with Initiative regeneration and two more points of Malice make the trait a major damage enhancement. Protection, Swiftness, Regeneration, and Vigor, however, are also significant boosts to personal sustain. This makes the trait out of balance with the other Grandmaster traits in terms of Purity of Purpose. Suggestions: 1) Remove Might, Fury, and Swiftness from Maleficent Seven. Explanations: 1) Might, Fury, and Swiftness should be the focus of the support oriented Fire for Effect (see below). With more Initiative regeneration, Maleficent Seven would still offer good sustained damage and would have to take other traits/skills/items (or use Rifle skills) to get Might/Fury. Swiftness can also already be applied by Rifle skills, which makes choosing Rifle skills more situational and less rewarding to spam. Citations: PoP, PB, Diversity

Be Quick or Be Killed. Issues: This damage oriented trait is out shined by the current form of Maleficent Seven (see above/below). Building and cycling Malice with Maleficent Seven is always going to be better damage output, with 25 stacks of Might and Fury, even in shorter “burst” time frames. In terms of Quickness access, Deadeye's Mark applies Quickness but the animation of marking a target covers part of the duration of the boon (lower boon duration in competitive). “Steal Time” is the only Stolen Skill that offers the Quickness boon, requiring fighting a Mesmer or getting a lucky “One in the Chamber” roll. Suggestions: 1) Be Quick or Be Killed now also applies 1 second of Quickness when Stolen Skills are used at 5 malice. Reduce the duration of Quickness on Steal Time from 3 to 2 seconds. Explanations: 1) This increases Quickness access but requires cycling Malice and having Stolen Skills. The Deadeye would have more control over when Quickness is applied for more consistent ability to take advantage of the power/precision bonuses. This improves overall synergy and puts the trait on par with other Grandmaster traits. Citations: PB, Diversity

Fire for Effect. Issues: This trait's suggested play-style is focused on spamming stolen skills and doesn't mesh well with normal Deadeye game-play (using Stolen Skills at maximum Malice). Suggestions: (1) Fire For Effect now makes Stolen Skills apply Might and Fury and Swiftness (x10 for 10 seconds) when used at 5 Malice. Explanations: (1) Deadeye Grandmaster traits all follow the general theme of using Boons to enhance the Deadeye. However, Fire for Effect does it without being oriented around normal Deadeye Marking/Malice game-play. The inclusion of Swiftness is to make the trait competitive, but not too strong, in providing boon support in a limited category (damage and basic mobility). Citations: PB, Diversity

Shadow Flare. Issues: The projectile that applies the flare is rather slow and can be blocked/obstructed. Suggestions: (1) Increase the speed of the Shadow Flare orb projectile and make it unblockable (projectile, not the AoE damage pulse). Explanations: 1) This significantly improves the usability of the skill by making sure the projectile itself lands where it is intended to. Citations: Diversity

Kneel. Issues: 1) Kneel remains clunky to use because normal movement keys do not break the Kneel. Suggestions: 1) Make jump break the Kneel. Explanations: 1) Making a jump break Kneel still requires the same number of actions as hitting the "5" skill. Making Jump act as a secondary way to trigger the animation for unkneeling would be a QoL improvement. Citations: QoL

Edited November 9, 2022 by saerni.2584
Typos

[saerni.2584]

Specter Traits, Utilities, and Scepter

Shadow Shroud HP Scaling. Issues: 1) The reduction to 0.69 health scaling resulted in the Shroud being slightly too squishy to be usable. Suggestions: 1) The number should be bumped up to 1.0 scaling and then balance re-evaluated. Explanations: This would make subsequent balancing on the skills side easier as the Shroud would have reasonable sustain in balance with Vitality. Citations: Diversity

Consume Shadows. Issues: 1) This trait is both too strong for the Adept tier and, with the “wait until you get the full effect” stacking buff, feels clunky. Suggestions: 1) Enter/Exit Shadow Shroud: Converts up to 10% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. While in Shadow Shroud: Convert up to 5% of Shadow Force to Heal up to 5 Allies (360 radius). Excess healing is converted to Barrier. Interval 3 seconds. Gain 1 stack of Shadow's Relief (Increased Outgoing Healing 10%, Interval 3 seconds, while in Shroud). *Heal conversion is 50% of Shadow Shroud HP consumed with 0.33 scaling for Healing Power. Explanations: 1) This promotes using the Shroud as a healing source while promoting the synergy of using it to pulse out Barrier/Rot Wallow Venom. Citations: PB, Diversity

Second Opinion: Issues: 1) Given that Consume Shadows is also a heal oriented trait, the focus on Healing Power in this trait feels both weak and discordant (need a separate reason to actually take this trait and not the other, better, healing trait). Suggestions: 1) Second Opinion now also includes: Enter/Exit Shadow Shroud applies Barrier to Allies (360 radius) 2) Remove the Scepter based Healing Power bonus, for Power Budget reasons. Explanations: 1) This trait needs a rework. In its current form it cannot compete for the exact same role as Consume Shadows. One missing area is a way to increase Barrier access/application to your group outside of Shadestep, while also being able to quickly respond to an incoming damage spike. Citations: PB, Diversity

Note on Alacrity application:

Issues: It has been noted that Alacrity application, even on a boon duration heavy build, requires spamming a large number of Wells on cooldown. This leads to spam play rather than smart play. There have been a number of suggestions on how to improve this design to promote "fun" gameplay. Solutions: 1) Alacrity on Enter/Exit Shroud. AND/OR 2) Alacrity on Siphon. Explanations: 1) Tying Alacrity to a few profession skills (either the F1 or the Enter/Exit Shroud mechanic will reduce the need to spam and open up this as a normal part of a rotation in game-play. Citations: PoP, Diversity, "Fun."

Edited November 7, 2022 by saerni.2584

[saerni.2584]

Bugs and General Issues

There are a number of bugs and other issues that, if fixed, would improve the current implementation of Thief and its Elite Specializations.

Deadeye's Mark. Certain targets in PvE can't be selected by this ability. Octovine is a notable and inconsistent (depends on what side of the Octovine you are on) example. This is a Path to Target issue that should be looked at closely given this impacts both old and new content alike.

Automatic Allied Targeting. There is a toggle for this in settings for regular targeting. This needs to be made a secondary toggle for allied targeting so we can select if we want to use the feature.

Edited November 6, 2022 by saerni.2584

[Antycypator.9874]

I would move might and fury from Maleficent Seven to other traitlines, making these boons available for every thief spec.

It's not fair to nerf anything on Deadeye because it is 100% single target spec. It takes literally an ambient mob between you and your target to ruin everything. Other classes can also deal high damage but with AoE on 5 targets.

[Chips.7968]

Preparations are an overreaction to a problem that had an alternative solution. It is horribly clunky. They must already have known this for years. It's not just the arming time (though arguably on portal fine, but at the same time, pointless). You have to press a button to trigger as well. Extra micromanage.

But, honestly, seems pointless to care of do feedback. There's no admission or feedback with regards to people's efforts. So you never know if they remotely consider, or differ in opinion, or otherwise - so you may just be wasting time and effort.

 

With recent events highlighting it's less about what they think, more about how much noise players make... 

I mean, there's zero confirmation they read the suggestions. Not trying to dishearten efforts, just saying I've put more effort into this post already than I believe is worthwhile on the forum. If I thought there was for one second any point in giving feedback to Anet, I would. 

Become so cynical over the years... but for good reason.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Chips.7968

[saerni.2584]

Thief has gotten suggestions implemented though. The entire SA rework recently had years of Thief feedback backed into it. As did the reworks to Deadeye post Path of Fire.

 

We won't get everything we ask for. But we aren't quite as ignored as you may think.

Edited November 7, 2022 by saerni.2584

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

one of the issues i have, which is not exclusive to thief tbh, are the passive traits that grant x% more dmg for every unique boon or condition, they are lazy in design because they are no fun but still feel kinda mandatory. i would like to see them replaced.

 

On 11/6/2022 at 9:20 PM, saerni.2584 said:

Thief Gameplay Roles

Thief has traditionally been designed towards two archetypes, Damage and Mobility. Specter brought two additional archetypes into play, alacrity Boon Support and Healing. However, for many years Thief has struggled on DPS comparative benchmarks and design changes elsewhere have made Thief, a “selfish” DPS Profession, less desirable than the alternatives for this fundamental Role. Likewise, as more and more Professions have gained in Mobility-type abilities Thief no longer is the only/best choice for the Mobility oriented role (“Roamer” in the WvW and sPvP contexts). Gaining access to a Boon Support and Healing role has again presented this familiar problem in that other Professions tend to do Alacrity or Healing to a full group far more simply (giving those Professions more flexibility to take other skills and, more importantly, to play without spamming on cooldown to achieve the desired outcome). As Thief has gained more potential roles, the risk has increased of becoming a “Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None” Profession. 

“Core” Specializations and Initiative

Thief has been dependent on the Trickery Specialization because of how Preparedness increases the total Initiative pool available by 3 points. This increase impacts everything from weapon skill costs to how much damage individual skills can do. However, it should be noted that Trickery's Kleptomaniac and Quick Pockets traits also focus on increasing Initiative (in both cases through regeneration). Although it has been popular to request “Preparedness” baseline, the more salient concern is Initiative regeneration rather than Initiative pool when it comes to managing your Initiative Pool.

  this paragraph is spot on! 

[Chips.7968]

17 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

Thief has gotten suggestions implemented though. The entire SA rework recently had years of Thief feedback backed into it. As did the reworks to Deadeye post Path of Fire.

 

We won't get everything we ask for. But we aren't quite as ignored as you may think.

Yeah, sorry, I got sidetracked in my ramble to miss the point of what I was intending to say. Don't get disheartened if not many comments or engagement!

Most people I know are so cynical of Anet "balance", or WvW balance anyway, that they don't engage as its utterly pointless (underpinned by reddit leaks) in their opinion. Just how it is.

There's zero evidence they read or consider anything here.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Chips.7968

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 11/6/2022 at 12:24 PM, saerni.2584 said:

Bugs and General Issues

There are a number of bugs and other issues that, if fixed, would improve the current implementation of Thief and its Elite Specializations.

Deadeye's Mark. Certain targets in PvE can't be selected by this ability. Octovine is a notable and inconsistent (depends on what side of the Octovine you are on) example. This is a Path to Target issue that should be looked at closely given this impacts both old and new content alike.

Automatic Allied Targeting. There is a toggle for this in settings for regular targeting. This needs to be made a secondary toggle for allied targeting so we can select if we want to use the feature.

Thanks for adding the thread that has ideas towards improving venoms.

I really do like what you have to say. You are knowledgeable and reasonable. It was fun to listen discuss your thoughts with specter the other day in the EcK discord.

Would it be possible add in the idea that I had for improving clarity around kneel? I know it was discussed on the EcK thieves discord, but I also posted part two of my three ideas here, plus the OP there has one as well. I really feel like adding clarity around kneel would be a massive QoL that would make deadeye overall played more.

Edited November 9, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[saerni.2584]

Thanks @ZeroTheRuler.7415. I've added in a brief item from what I recall of your suggestion. If you have additions to it just let me know. 
 

I also added a "Quality of Life" tag to the OP.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

6 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

Thanks @ZeroTheRuler.7415. I've added in a brief item from what I recall of your suggestion. If you have additions to it just let me know. 
 

I also added a "Quality of Life" tag to the OP.

Thank-you. Also there is a link to my thoughts in the other post 😛 where I said "here" haha.

I think also changing rifle skill colors would be good when you kneel to add clarity (lets say all of the skills changed from red to yellow in kneel stance). Now if someone is colorblind that might not help so that's also why I thought of a subtle sound that plays for the user when kneel stance is activated or deactivated or is active (I am not colorblind). My full idea is linked in the other thread. That way it is always clear if you are in kneel. The OP from the other thread commented that its hard to track especially if you get CCed and suddenly switch to standing stance.

Edited November 9, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Mincsk.6028]

On 11/7/2022 at 1:41 PM, saerni.2584 said:

Thief has gotten suggestions implemented though. The entire SA rework recently had years of Thief feedback backed into it. As did the reworks to Deadeye post Path of Fire.

 

We won't get everything we ask for. But we aren't quite as ignored as you may think.

I'd argue using the leaked discord conversation that the evidence points more to being ignored than feedback. 

[Carnifex.3275]

Why u didnt summarize daredevil? For me 1st issue is Staff #2 animation lock that u cannot cancel with weapon stow. U can only cancel it with weap swap. But then it means u gotta wear Staff+Staff and u give up 2nd weapon. U'll still have to be very reactive and responsive. U got only 1/2 seconds of #2 cast time to react and cancel it if u need it.

2nd major one for me is Havoc Specialist. Thief is already a paper class that dies quickly if u dont master dodging. But on daredevil even though u got more dodges you are ultimately left with 0 dodges. Since Havoc Specialist is the best trait for DPS build, ppl have to drain their endurance for the most dmg possible. Staff Master trait provides a much healthier management of dodges but sadly it cannot compete with havoc specialist at this point.

3rd point would be simple. Dodging around is very annoying in pve instanced content. There are times where u cannot dodge around and u need to stay in 1 place. If you keep dodging around left and right u t risking alot by dodging into something you dont really wanna dodge into. That's also very very pronounced on cDD Dagger/Dagger build since u got even more jumping around with Dagger#3. The worst part is that if u want to atleast keep your dmg competetive - u have to keep dodging. So u gotta choose. EIther u keep dodging and maybe u'll be able to keep up with other classes but then u risk dying and ultimately thats a dps loss of 100% lol. Or u stand still, be safe. But then u will also lose tons of dmg. Solution? Something like mirage dodge or vindicator. Where u can stand in 1 place while dodging. Even safer solution? Dont put passive damage boosts (like bounding dodger) on dodge. So u can just save your dodges for when u actually need to dodge. But that would make daredevil not unique.. so i'd just go with 1st solution. Give us some option to keep dodging but staying in 1 place and split it between wvw/pvp. Cuz dodging in 1 place for pvp/wvw would be terrible.

Ofcz the other general issue is that Daredevil should have higher dmg. It has quite a high skill floor and its also 100% a melee class. And yet... u'll find it very hard or even impossible to compete with such specs like virtuoso and mech. So even if u dou everything perfectly what i mentioned in 3rd point... you'll still most likely be way behind in terms of dps of other classes. Plus you are not really bringing anything to the table. So it kind of aligns with the "new" philosophy of Anet: "a pure dmg spec shouldnt be able to provide alot of other things", it aligned with that philosophy for years lol, so most people scratched their heads and thought "why would i even play pDD if other classes can do better and more?". It also should align with the philosophy that "high risk high skill should be rewarded". Now u got high skill low reward so theres almost no reason to play daredevil anywhere. Maybe except w6 qadim but even w6 can be done easily on pmech which is ranged. Can be done on other classes too. 

I'm happy that someone still bothers to create these threads. We've been at it for years and gave Anet tons of feedback. And what we accomplished? Nothing, seems like banging your head on the wall repeatedly. So personally i don't bother anymore. What are the actual chances that they will listen? So i appreciate the effort and that you still have hope and write these feedbacks. Maybe someday we'll be heard.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Carnifex.3275

[saerni.2584]

@Carnifex.3275 I didn't because overall Daredevil is in a good spot design-wise, and there weren't any specific changes I could personally recommend. However, I'm open to including Daredevil specific ideas and animation lock issues are a potentially good design suggestion. It takes a village to suggest things here as I'm only one Thief.
 

I'd also note that there's a big question mark on less used weapons and melee vs ranged as far as what the damage numbers should ideally be. I mostly targeted Shortbow because there are some more obvious design pain points. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't post if they think a DPS weapon set is lacking and specific skills being boosted is the way to do that.
 

And, with the balance preview coming tomorrow, I'd expect our conversation in this thread to be somewhat shaped by what they've decided to do. After that it's between us and Anet to imagine the possibilities.

[Tails.9372]

Their so called "power budget" for the Major Grandmaster traits in Critical Strikes seems a bit off to me. The nerf to Invigorating Precision earlier this year blatantly spits in the face of like half of their "Skill and Trait Design Guidelines" (in more ways than just one) and should be reverted.

3 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't post if they think a DPS weapon set is lacking and specific skills being boosted is the way to do that.

There are things to bring up here but some of the main issues they suffer from are a result of how various class mechanics are implemented and properly fixing them would require more than just mere number adjustments e.g. P/P is lacking qute a bit but boosting the damage of Unload is not going to fix the underlying problems of the weapon set (although the fact that its single target damage output is behind similar sets on other professions like power rifle mech (which also has both 33% more range and AoE by default on top of it) and some of the support hybrids even if you go pure DPS is something that should probably get some attention from the devs).

As for "melee vs ranged" their DPS under ideal conditions should iderly be the same as the balancing in that regard is best done through encounter design which would have to be dulled down if one side is "weaker by default" but this topic ultimately exceeds the scope of this thread.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Carnifex.3275]

@saerni.2584

Well i just expressed issues that are commonly talked about over the years. So basically the idea that it has to drain the dodge for dps leavin them vulnerable. Animation locking. And the insane jumping around and not being able to stay still (cDD would be the best example of how much positioning and jumping around u gotta do). It would be somewhat similar incovenience to DEs Kneeling mechanic. Just simply very inconvenient way to play in pve instanced content. So yes design wise i guess it has a distinct identity. But in general it's quite terrible to play like that. Well and ofcz all the risk/skill = barely any reward factor too. So ye.. design wise maybe its alright. But overall it's not in a good state.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Carnifex.3275

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

All I want is a viable dual dagger assassin that deals massive burst damage without: 

* Be positioned behind or be stuck dealing has much damage as your Alac/Quick support

* Being blinded, slowed, chilled, weakened or you'll mess up the short and simple but precise rotation you need to have down to muscle memory

* Being revealed by allies blasting fields

* Doing support-level damage if you go below 90% health

* Getting stuck when Deadeye Mark has "not viable path to enemy" and wasting a utility skill slot to be able to re-prioritize

* Giving up all survivability and team utility  

* Switching to Power Soulbeast to do the better burst and DPS overtime damage in all scenarios except golem and lose all Rogue aesthetic.

I swear if I hear one more person tell me Deadeye is fine because their crappy 15k dps Unload spam build "is just fine" im going to scream. Sorry for the unconstructive rant, just had to get it out, I read every bullet point in the original post and agree with every one of them, I made a thread myself and just got replies by people whod rather not see Deadeye played at all.

Edited November 11, 2022 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[Dadnir.5038]

Reading all the suggestions it feel like Daredevil is either perfect or has been forgotten by the OP.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[saerni.2584]

I will be adding more items, including Daredevil this weekend, based on what people post. But I'm one person so if people want to post in the format I'm using it would be very helpful.

[Doggie.3184]

Still no Ricochet, Anet can you at least tell us why? Look me in the eyes as you rip out my heart. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Tails.9372]

Really bad chages to the Kneel skills, its honestly kind of impressive how the devs manage to constantly take things into the exact opposite direction they should have. Some player gives feedback on the forum: "You shouldn't have to kneel to do damage you should have to kneel to be more accurate and hit further targets" A-Net: "Ayy let's do the exact opposite of that.".