Reaper Changes Feedback - 29 November balance preview

[Parpage.9867]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

This is going to set pants on fire:

I think Reaper is likely going to need a massive nerf to self-sufficiency

Yes, it will set pants on fire because it's nonsense. Literally litany of wrath is better than reaper "sustain" and don't forget that stuff like jagged mind exist 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Yes, it will set pants on fire because it's nonsense. Literally litany of wrath is better than reaper "sustain" and don't forget that stuff like jagged mind exist 

Believe what you like; it's not like Anet hasn't done something similar like what I'm suggesting before. I guess that's the difference between us: I pay attention to what happens in the game to see what is possible and what is unlikely. 

Nonsense that Anet nerfs Reaper to buff it somewhere else? Maybe ... but definitely not as nonsensical as Anet just dumping 30%+ DPS increase on Reaper across the board. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Believe what you like

It's not a matter of personal opinion, it's just a fact that other classes can do what reaper does but better but i guess the self quickness was the culprit all along oh no! 

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I pay attention to what happens in the game to see what is possible and what is unlikely. 

And yet you don't pay attention to the amount of nonsense that you post, how weird uh

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

It's not a matter of personal opinion, it's just a fact that other classes can do what reaper does but better but i guess the self quickness was the culprit all along oh no! 

What other classes do is irrelevant to how Reaper works. If it was the case that classes/specs are balanced according to each others abilities, that's how the game would actually be balanced. That's not what we see happening. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What other classes do is irrelevant to how Reaper works. 

Ah yes of course, it's not like that's how literally fairness and balancing works. I was truly lost without your insight, thanks! 

[Obtena.7952]

18 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Ah yes of course, it's not like that's how literally fairness and balancing works. I was truly lost without your insight, thanks! 

It's not hard to see from the history of the game that these ideas of 'fairness' are not characteristic of Anet's  balancing approach. If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion ... there is lots of value to you to rethink about how your ideas about how the game changes doesn't match up to how the game ACTUALLY changes.

But you know ... over the next few years or decades, as reaper continues to randomly gets DPS buffs and nerfs, their might be a point where it competes ... you can come back and tell me I'm wrong THEN. 

It's very simple; it comes down to what Anet does and why they do it; two things people can understand if they pay attention to the history of the game. If that's not the basis for your beliefs on how the game changes, you just aren't being realistic. That means that ideas you have about how it should change; also not realistic. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

44 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What other classes do is irrelevant to how Reaper works.

Skills, professions, e-specs are not balanced in a vacuum.

How can you claim to "follow what ANet does", yes still hold to this belief?!

[Obtena.7952]

36 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Skills, professions, e-specs are not balanced in a vacuum.

How can you claim to "follow what ANet does", yes still hold to this belief?!

And they aren't balanced according to be 'fair' with each other either, which was what was being discussed. Contrary to your post, I don't believe Anet balances these things in a vacuum either so ... just continue to invent things I said to argue with me I guess. The idea that these things are not balanced in a vacuum does not contradict the fact they aren't balanced to be fair with each other either, so your statement isn't relevant to what was being discussed. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

...there I go talking to mud again.
When will I learn?

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And they aren't balanced according to be 'fair' with each other either, which was what was being discussed.

So Reaper is balanced to be dogwater or at best very, very middling at everything you can do in the game? Yeah that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

So Reaper is balanced to be dogwater or at best very, very middling at everything you can do in the game? Yeah that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up

Depends on the game mode. IMO, being 'middling' at everything you can do in the game can be VERY effective ... in competitive game modes and nothing about Anet's balance philosophy suggests a spec must be balanced for PVE performance either. Again, just another case of imposing your view of how things should work to justify changes you want. That's NOT how this player/game change interaction has EVER worked. 

Again, what is the problem you want solved here? Are you of the belief that Anet is just going to take a jake of all trades spec, buff it 30%+ DPS and say it's good to go for endgame team PVE? History of the game says otherwise.

Based on how we can see Anet change the game over it's history, I have no doubt that if we really want Reaper to 'compete' with DPS classes in endgame teams, some big nerfs have to happen to some primary, self-sufficient DPS traits, not just in Reaper, but for Necro as a whole. Are you ready for that? Just for the chance to maybe be competitive? I don't think people truly understand what they are asking for. 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on the game mode. IMO, being 'middling' at everything you can do in the game can be VERY effective ... in competitive game modes and nothing about Anet's balance philosophy suggests a spec must be balanced for PVE performance either. Again, just another case of imposing your view of how things should work to justify changes you want. That's NOT how this player/game change interaction has EVER worked. 

Again, what is the problem you want solved here? Are you of the belief that Anet is just going to take a jake of all trades spec, buff it 30%+ DPS and say it's good to go for endgame team PVE? History of the game says otherwise.

 

What game mode is Reaper good at, then? It's bad in PvP with GS being laughably bad due to how slow it is. I have no idea about it's WvW performance, maybe ok? Everything is good in open world. In group PvE is competes (and continues to get outdamaged) by supports, which will also pack roughly the same amount of CC or other, significant utility generally. It has okay burst, which is also outclassed by many DPS specs. It is far from a "jack-of-all-trades" spec, cause that would require it to do anything beyond DPS and CC. The few extra pulls and chills you get are base Necro, and everything else is also outclassed by other class options.

The history of the game says that we currently have things like Condi Virt and Bladesworn with Martial Cadence running around, had multiple months of a ridiculously oppressive pMech (which is still acceptable now, just reigned in and being held back by the fact that it has very little to no burst), years of Firebrand, HAM, Scourge and many other specs that are completely busto. Idk why history of the game you've been looking at, but it sure isn't the same.

 

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Based on how we can see Anet change the game over it's history, I have no doubt that if we really want Reaper to 'compete' with DPS classes in endgame teams, some big nerfs have to happen to some primary, self-sufficient DPS traits, not just in Reaper, but for Necro as a whole. 

 

No they don't because of the above mentioned specs and the rest that hasn't been listed. Other builds also get to be extremely self-sufficient, in better ways even because their self-sufficiency doesn't become obsolete the second you step into a group.

[Parpage.9867]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on the game mode

That doesn't matter. Balancing between game modes is a thing and we all know about it. 

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, just another case of imposing your view of how things should work to justify changes you want.

And that's not what you're doing either right? You just want reaper to stay in a bad spot and come out with ridiculous explanations for it.

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what is the problem you want solved here?

Just what he said, reaper not being horrible lmao. 

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Are you of the belief that Anet is just going to take a jake of all trades spec

Are you sure you're talking about reaper? Again we could list tons of classes with different build that can do 10 times better what reaper does, he's surely not a "jack of all trades" what a ridiculous statement. 

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Are you ready for that? Just for the chance to maybe be competitive? I don't think people truly understand what they are asking for. 

Yes i am pretty sure people are ready for their favorite spec to be in a decent spot by a very long time, it's really a shame to be barely distinguished by a quickness dps without actually providing the group support

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

 

What game mode is Reaper good at, then? It's bad in PvP with GS being laughably bad due to how slow it is. I have no idea about it's WvW performance, maybe ok? Everything is good in open world. In group PvE is competes (and continues to get outdamaged) by supports, which will also pack roughly the same amount of CC or other, significant utility generally. It has okay burst, which is also outclassed by many DPS specs. It is far from a "jack-of-all-trades" spec, cause that would require it to do anything beyond DPS and CC. The few extra pulls and chills you get are base Necro, and everything else is also outclassed by other class options.

The history of the game says that we currently have things like Condi Virt and Bladesworn with Martial Cadence running around, had multiple months of a ridiculously oppressive pMech (which is still acceptable now, just reigned in and being held back by the fact that it has very little to no burst), years of Firebrand, HAM, Scourge and many other specs that are completely busto. Idk why history of the game you've been looking at, but it sure isn't the same.

Again, what problem to solve here? None of this changes what I said. What reaper is ... is based on what Anet wants it to be. The kind of concept Reaper has is more likely to be good at competitive modes than PVE ones. NOthing in the philosophy should lead you to believe that if Reaper isn't good at anything, it should be made competitive DPS in PVE. What other classes do, does not determine what Reaper should be. 

17 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

No they don't because of the above mentioned specs and the rest that hasn't been listed. Other builds also get to be extremely self-sufficient, in better ways even because their self-sufficiency doesn't become obsolete the second you step into a group.

Well, again, you can believe what you like. We have instances in this game where Anet has nerfed something to buff it somewhere else and the philosophy indicates they are conscious of that as well. We have also always had specs that don't match up in performance with others. I mean, again, just going to point you to the history of the game. The fact that numerous of these significant spec differences exist is evidence that you can't conclude that the only path forward for Reaper is some double digit DPS buffs. 

I'm very certain that Anet has a holistic approach to examining a spec when they go to change it. It's entirely possible that Anet does not regard the 'middling' performance of Reaper over a wide range of  abilities as a bad thing like players do. I'm also certain that the self-sufficiency of this spec is a massive barrier to delivering the massive DPS increase players are asking for, regardless of what other classes do because that self-sufficiency means Reaper does not fit into Anet's concept of teaming. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Since when was Reaper a jack of all trades?

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what problem to solve here? None of this changes what I said. What reaper is ... is based on what Anet wants it to be. The kind of concept Reaper has is more likely to be good at competitive modes than PVE ones. NOthing in the philosophy should lead you to believe that if Reaper isn't good at anything, it should be made competitive DPS in PVE. What other classes do, does not determine what Reaper should be. 

Well, again, you can believe what you like. We have instances in this game where Anet has nerfed something to buff it somewhere else and the philosophy indicates they are conscious of that as well. We have also always had specs that don't match up in performance with others. I mean, again, just going to point you to the history of the game. The fact that numerous of these significant spec differences exist is evidence that you can't conclude that the only path forward for Reaper is some double digit DPS buffs. 

Then why is Reaper not good in PvP or WvW either? Why does Anet refuse to do anything about the spec to make it good in any game mode and even *nerfed* it with EoD's launch?

 

You cling so hard onto your beliefs because of things you claim to see that you're unwilling to look past that. The history of the game has only shown one thing: Anet is happy to let things run rampant, either for a few months or even many years, it doesn't matter to them and they're tackling whatever they feel like.

 

Even if "just buffing DPS" isn't the only path forward, it is BY FAR the easiest and lowest effort for Anet, which is more than enough to put Reaper into a good place for PvE while they figure out what to actually do with it. That really is not too much to ask for.

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Then why is Reaper not good in PvP or WvW either? Why does Anet refuse to do anything about the spec to make it good in any game mode and even *nerfed* it with EoD's launch?

I don't know why ... but that doesn't mean what I'm telling you is wrong either. Just because Reaper is not good for anything doesn't mean it's design isn't better suited for competitive modes than PVE mode. 

20 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

The history of the game has only shown one thing: Anet is happy to let things run rampant, either for a few months or even many years, it doesn't matter to them and they're tackling whatever they feel like.

Right, my beliefs are based on that fact exactly, plus the fact they have been telling us why they make changes to classes. Seems to me like the person who bases their beliefs on things that are REAL is more likely to be closer to understanding how things work than the person that bases their beliefs on what they think should be. 

20 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

 

Even if "just buffing DPS" isn't the only path forward, it is BY FAR the easiest and lowest effort for Anet, which is more than enough to put Reaper into a good place for PvE while they figure out what to actually do with it. That really is not too much to ask for.

That's true that just buffing DPS is easy and low effort. So ask yourself why that path isn't the one Anet takes to make Reaper competitive in PVE? Obviously, it's not hard to conclude Anet doesn't JUST do things because they are easy and low effort.  

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

Hello i came back to gloat about the QoL update that we received, we won bois our hopium was repayed 🙂

[Parpage.9867]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's true that just buffing DPS is easy and low effort. So ask yourself why that path isn't the one Anet takes to make Reaper competitive in PVE? Obviously, it's not hard to conclude Anet doesn't JUST do things because they are easy and low effort.

So what are you doing to do now? Ditch reaper because it's not so horrible anymore? 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Parpage.9867 said:

So what are you doing to do now? Ditch reaper because it's not so horrible anymore? 

"Something something they did this for other reasons so it's good, and not your reasons, which would be bad, I win, nyah!"

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Parpage.9867 said:

So what are you doing to do now? Ditch reaper because it's not so horrible anymore? 

This question doesn't make sense ... the balance patch doesn't impact my decision to play Reaper. I mean, if you are gloating, you're going to have to explain yourself. Somehow, you're excited that Reaper got yet another DPS increase that doesn't make Reaper competitive? or maybe you are excited about the fact that nothing in this patch contradicts anything I've said in this thread? Yeah, you got me REAL good.  🤔

Maybe when Anet makes another 10-12 of these small increases over the next few years, that might be worth the told you so moment. Until then, I guess I will just keep paying attention to what is reality.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

22 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Something something they did this for other reasons so it's good, and not your reasons, which would be bad, I win, nyah!"

You totally predicted him LMAOOO 

[captrowdy.9561]

I hope someone reading this is not scared away form playing reaper. I’ve really enjoyed it. Fun in wvw roaming and groups. Is a pretty good dps in pvp.  I’ve also taken it into strikes and it’s a blast. Great sword is a dang joke. 4 and 5 are entertaining but 1-3 might a well not be there. 

[RyasmaRaven.6018]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

NOthing in the philosophy should lead you to believe that if Reaper isn't good at anything, it should be made competitive DPS in PVE.

Reaper is supposed to be good at one thing: DPS. So that's where it should be competitive. Why is this so hard to understand? Why can't a DPS spec compete with other DPS specs?

[Obtena.7952]

48 minutes ago, DragonRanger.2389 said:

Reaper is supposed to be good at one thing: DPS. So that's where it should be competitive. Why is this so hard to understand? Why can't a DPS spec compete with other DPS specs?

Well, says you. I have yet to see Anet confirm Reaper is supposed to be good at one thing and that one thing is DPS. For something it's supposed to be good at, seems Anet has different ideas.

So why it's hard to understand? Probably because players don't decide these things, Anet does. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952