Breaching Strike and it’s interaction with Damage Multipliers

[oscuro.9720]

My last post focused on when Destruction of the Empowered interacted with Breaching Strike. The conclusion was that DotE calculated its damage multiplier based on how many boons were on the target after the strip was applied, lower the damage multiplier by about 10%. 
 

This post, we will look at when Breaching Strike’s 50% damage multiplier is applied. Obviously, it would be assumed it would be consistent with DotE, and apply after the boons are stripped (meaning it triggers on a target with 1, 2, or 3 boons). 
 

Data

No Boon damage:

Data: 911, 948, 929, 991

Average: 944.75

 

2 boon damage: 

Data: 638, 673, 740, 607

Average: 664.5

 

Conclusion:

The damage multiplier on Breaching Strike is applying based on the number of boons the target has when hit, not after the strip, as DotE does.

 

Argument:

These traits should interact with targets consistently. Either Breaching Strike should gain its damage multiplier vs targets with 1, 2, or 3 boons, or destruction of the empowered should determine its multiplier before the boon strip on Breaching Strike is applied.

 

Currently, Spell is being screwed out of damage needlessly on breaching, which is one of its primary skills on dagger in competitive mode. I am not arguing that the two should overlap, that would be just as wrong, but rather that they should function based on the same rule set so that there is, at the bare minimum, a consistent means of driving bonus damage from skills when interacting with strips. 
 

Personally, I believe Breaching Strike’s multiplier should take on the format of DotE, but that is just a matter of biased personal preference. 
 

Edited November 29, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Hotride.2187]

21 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Conclusion:

The damage multiplier on Breaching Strike is applying based on the number of boons the target has when hit, not after the strip, as DotE does.

Lol, what a worthless change then.

"We will look into boons later"... When? 10 years from now? As they nuke boon removal out of orbit...

Edited November 29, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[eXruina.4956]

its as expected. banner of tactics also turned out to be an expected disappointment.

[Zekent.3652]

Hits hard, but doesn't makes spellbreaker's purpose, it punish the lack of boons, not the spam of boons, as should be, ANet keeps nerfing the boon punish but then gives a lack of boons punishment, like, what XD?

Edited November 29, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[oscuro.9720]

56 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Hits hard, but doesn't makes spellbreaker's purpose, it punish the lack of boons, not the spam of boons, as should be, ANet keeps nerfing the boon punish but then gives a lack of boons punishment, like, what XD?

100%.

Im not wholly negative on this change. You have to give the balance team credit, it’s a solid 50% multiplier, really brings some needed heft to dagger’s kit.

However, requiring the target to have no boons regardless of strip, when it’s tied to our most potent strip, means that it is literally useless in competitive modes. Even Warrior doesn’t run around with no boons and we are probably the lowest boon output class. 

Now, I do understand why they made it this style of multiplier. In pve, there are far more opportunities to hit something with no boons. For competitive modes, if the damage is going to be locked behind stripping boons, then the kit’s boon removal outside of breaching strike needs to be amplified significantly. Otherwise there is no actual damage increase in practice.

Again, alternatively and probably more simply, make it have the same behavior as destruction of the empowered and check for boons after the strip is applied. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Lol, what a worthless change then.

"We will look into boons later"... When? 10 years from now? As they nuke boon removal out of orbit...

I mean, if that was it, I’d shrug and move on. Maybe advocate for a change, but it wouldn’t be a big deal. What really gets to me is that our other high-leverage boon-dependent multiplier DOES factor in the strip, which means that we can not take advantage of EITHER multiplier for this skill. If they don’t want breaching’s multiplier to effect people who have their boons stripped off (which it should given the level of boon output, but that’s a longer discussion) than they should change DotE so that it applies the additional 10% to breaching when hitting a target with 3 boons. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Your best bet to see value in competitive modes would be running hammer+ Dagger/shield--which, fortunately, happens to be very strong right now. It would be in no way consistent, but you could chain CC targets, removing multiple boons via dispelling force, and finish off with breaching strike.

Breaching strike >>FC>> Breaching strike would also be fairly likely to get the bonus.

In any event, you'll be able to kill the boonless beasts in Forest of Nifhel more easily 😂

Edited November 29, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Just tried it out on defense hammer Spellbreaker...I didn't get big hits all the time, but when I did, it hit really hard, almost as hard as fierce blow sometimes. So...yeah. it's awesome lol. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

What are these numbers in reference to, PVE/PVP/WVW?
You need to specify your power when taking numbers as well.

[draxynnic.3719]

'Removes boons, but does extra damage if there are no boons to remove' is fairly common functionality. It'd probably make more sense to make DOTE trigger before the boon removal.

Or make Breaching Strike do extra damage for each potential boonstrip that isn't used. So if you hit a target with only 1 boon, you still get a 25% modifier.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

52 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Removes boons, but does extra damage if there are no boons to remove' is fairly common functionality. It'd probably make more sense to make DOTE trigger before the boon removal.

That is kind of the sticking point, ONE of these two traits should be giving Breaching Strike extra damage, which one doesn't really matter, but it would be nice if the new modifier on the skill itself applied the damage after the boons were ripped. Even better would be for it to do scaling damage based on the number of boons ripped. Still clearly a change with PvE in mind, but changing it to apply the damage increase after the boons are ripped wouldn't affect the PvE numbers much.

 

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What are these numbers in reference to, PVE/PVP/WVW?
You need to specify your power when taking numbers as well.

These specific numbers are from WvW, tested against the same opponent with no armor or trinkets on, all boons, affects, etc. we’re controlled for. The numbers are just proof of the damage multiplier being applied, so the mode isn't not particularly relevant for this post, since the actual value output is irrelevant except in relation to the other test group. I believe the multiplier is the same across modes.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Removes boons, but does extra damage if there are no boons to remove' is fairly common functionality. It'd probably make more sense to make DOTE trigger before the boon removal.

Or make Breaching Strike do extra damage for each potential boonstrip that isn't used. So if you hit a target with only 1 boon, you still get a 25% modifier.

Yep, not a novel place to put a damage mod. DOTE triggering differently would work as well, though I’d prefer the bigger damage mod 🙂.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is kind of the sticking point, ONE of these two traits should be giving Breaching Strike extra damage, which one doesn't really matter, but it would be nice if the new modifier on the skill itself applied the damage after the boons were ripped. Even better would be for it to do scaling damage based on the number of boons ripped. Still clearly a change with PvE in mind, but changing it to apply the damage increase after the boons are ripped wouldn't affect the PvE numbers much.

 

From the opposite perspective, though, getting the damage bonus if the strip leaves the target fully boonless feels a bit like you're getting to have your cake and eat it too. The bonus damage is supposed to be compensation for not having any boons to strip (similar to the mesmer auto). Changing DOTE, however, fits, because the target still has the boons when you strike, and removing all the boons means that follow-up strikes won't get DOTE.

I agree that you should get at least one, but Breaching Strike is pretty clearly themed and balanced along 'you get the boonstrip or extra damage BUT NOT BOTH' lines. So the logical one to keep is DOTE. Since they were empowered when you struck them, and stripping boons fits the 'destroy the empowered' theme.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

30 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

From the opposite perspective, though, getting the damage bonus if the strip leaves the target fully boonless feels a bit like you're getting to have your cake and eat it too. The bonus damage is supposed to be compensation for not having any boons to strip (similar to the mesmer auto). Changing DOTE, however, fits, because the target still has the boons when you strike, and removing all the boons means that follow-up strikes won't get DOTE.

I agree that you should get at least one, but Breaching Strike is pretty clearly themed and balanced along 'you get the boonstrip or extra damage BUT NOT BOTH' lines. So the logical one to keep is DOTE. Since they were empowered when you struck them, and stripping boons fits the 'destroy the empowered' theme.

It's either or, whichever is easier for them to implement. I'd prefer Breaching Strike to deal the damage if the target is boonless as a result of the boon strip, and if that proves too powerful then shave the increased damage where applicable.