The State of Untamed in WvW (DO NOT REMOVE FERVENT FORCE)

[Pharmacist.5410]

32 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm just pointing out that you are tunnel visioned on condi. Note I never wrote that Toxic Shot should not be improved. Condi and projectiles no less has never been the predominant way to play WvW in a group environment. Unless you are arguing that untamed is supposed to be a roamer spec first and foremost when soulbeast, core , and druid were perfectly viable for that and boonbeast was even dominant in roaming.

Since druid is not a damage spec and for whatever reason Arenanet refuses to give druid a pet stow option in WVW it is important that Untamed is actually a strong way to play power in a group setting. Right now you are more likely to run stanceshare soulbeast because sharing dolyak stance is a legitimate usage even if hammer is better than greatsword in terms of cleave , CC , and possibly damage.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like you're saying Untamed doesn't bring any new value for condition or power builds so therefore it makes no sense to even play Untamed (So why does it even exist).. since SB and Druid already serve a dominant purpose with either condi or power? 

May as well jus kitten delete it eh?

Untamed is more viable even with hammer/shortbow in group play than you may think (trust me on this) allowing for switches between melee/ranged on demand. I have actually found it's conditions to perform extremely well in both zergs and roaming, but TAKE NOTE that it has an extremely higher skill cap than any condition builds I've played or that you may have ever encountered.

OBVIOUSLY it has more benefits in smaller scale roaming. NO QUESTION. But jusr because it isn't predominant doesn't make it any less viable than Druid or SB.

Read this very carefully. As of right now I'll say this, Untamed is quite possibly stronger than either Druid or Soulbeast FOR condition based builds, as ridiculous as that may sound. It's just that not many people have it figured out AT ALL. It's extremely unsuspecting and surprising because the current meta promotes only power based builds.

SB is Strongest with power

Druid is Strongest at healing and conditions

Untamed ?????  Great Hybrid Option with great CC and conditions

There always has to be someone who is trying to promote some kind of build diversity in regards to "tunnel visioning" on condition based builds.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410
Untamed has a high skill cap

[Infusion.7149]

19 minutes ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like you're saying Untamed isn't as viable for condition damage so therefore it makes no sense to even play Untamed.. since SB and Druid already serve a dominant purpose with either condi or power? 

 

Untamed is more viable even with shortbow in group play than you may think (trust me on this) and I have actually found it's conditions to perform extremely well in both zergs and roaming.. OBVIOUSLY it has more benefits in smaller scale roaming. NO QUESTION. But jus because it isn't predominant doesn't mean it needs to be totally neglected.

 

Read this very carefully. As of right now I'll say this, Untamed is quite possibly stronger than either Druid or Soulbeast FOR conditions, as ridiculous as that may sound. It's just that not many people have it figured out AT ALL. Because the current meta promotes only power based builds.

 

There always has to be someone who is trying to promote some kind of build diversity in regards to "tunnel visioning" on condition based builds. Change is the nature of the game.

No my point is untamed without hammer isn't strong on its own right in WvW due to relying on pet in some fashion. (Druid has group support built in no matter your build , soulbeast can stanceshare and doesn't have a pet liability.) Hammer allows untamed to have a boon rip that is consistent as well as an Arc Divider-like PBAOE on Unleashed Savage Shockwave. Without hammer it's basically carried by unleashed ambushes which were added as an afterthought after people said that the spec has zero interaction with core weapons. Unleashed ambushes also happen to be able to be traited for boonrip.

Shortbow is still going to be projectile and it's still going to lose flanking bonuses in most groups. Running untamed doesn't suddenly change this since unleashed ambush is on 15 second timer ; Toxic Shot applies poison , torment , and weakness not burning and bleeding. Torment actually is subpar in competitive modes unless the target is CC-ed since it loses damage against moving targets and poison doesn't have a large damage scaling (about 130 per second per stack with 1500 condition damage).

You know why condi hasn't been dominant right? You need time for the conditions to tick while power damage is instant. Unless you are stacking conditions extremely high in a short amount of time they will be cleansed even after the scrapper nerfs. It is far easier to heal or cleanse through conditions than power damage and the fact that there are only a handful of damage conditions (burning, bleeding, torment, poison, confusion) means damage conditions may be cleansed completely with two cleanses.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Pharmacist.5410]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No my point is untamed without hammer isn't strong on its own right in WvW due to relying on pet in some fashion. (Druid has group support built in no matter your build , soulbeast can stanceshare and doesn't have a pet liability.) Hammer allows untamed to have a boon rip that is consistent as well as an Arc Divider-like PBAOE on Unleashed Savage Shockwave. Without hammer it's basically carried by unleashed ambushes which were added as an afterthought after people said that the spec has zero interaction with core weapons. Unleashed ambushes also happen to be able to be traited for boonrip.

Shortbow is still going to be projectile and it's still going to lose flanking bonuses in most groups. Running untamed doesn't suddenly change this since unleashed ambush is on 15 second timer ; Toxic Shot applies poison , torment , and weakness not burning and bleeding. Torment actually is subpar in competitive modes unless the target is CC-ed since it loses damage against moving targets and poison doesn't have a large damage scaling (about 130 per second per stack with 1500 condition damage).

You know why condi hasn't been dominant right? You need time for the conditions to tick while power damage is instant. Unless you are stacking conditions extremely high in a short amount of time they will be cleansed even after the scrapper nerfs. It is far easier to heal or cleanse through conditions than power damage and the fact that there are only a handful of damage conditions (burning, bleeding, torment, poison, confusion) means damage conditions may be cleansed completely with two cleanses.

 

My Untamed build runs Hammer and Shortbow and it's incredibly unique (almost laughable) until people witness it in action, I would actually have to show how it plays in order for people to really understand me. I'm quite possibly the first OR part of a few who has figured out how to make a Untamed Hybrid Condition Trapper Hammer/Shortbow Bruiser somewhat VIABLE vs Zergs/Roaming.  

I'm stamping it as the Predatoria Untamed Build.. It's incredibly challenging to play , yet incredibly rewarding if played to an absolute T. It makes Untamed legitimately feel like you are playing something named "Untamed". The purpose for me to share it only goes to show that the devs are headed in the right direction when it comes to a fun spec to play.

Fervent Force helps the build become passively fluid despite it's very unforgiving playstyle.

I'm aware FF can't always affect ALL CDs forever. Again,All I ask is that if it absolutely needs to be changed perhaps allow it to effect only certain cooldowns.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

 

My Untamed build runs Hammer and Shortbow and it's incredibly unique (almost laughable) until people witness it in action, I would actually have to show how it plays in order for people to really understand me. I'm quite possibly the first OR part of a few who has figured out how to make a Untamed Hybrid Condition Trapper Hammer/Shortbow Bruiser with  VIABLE in Zergs/Roaming. And I'm stamping it as the Predatoria Untamed Build.. It's incredibly challenging to play , yet incredibly rewarding if played to an absolute T. It makes Untamed legitimately feel like you are playing something named "Untamed".

 

I have two questions, do you run arcdps and would you be able to have it on video?

If the answer is you don't run arcdps then at least be able to show a damage log and unedited video with time in it to prove it isn't sped up.

People can make a lot of wild claims about builds: it happens all the time. The math on conditions doesn't correlate with your claims.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Pharmacist.5410]

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I have two questions, do you run arcdps and would you be able to have it on video?

If the answer is you don't run arcdps then at least be able to show a damage log and unedited video.

People can make a lot of wild claims about builds: it happens all the time. The math on conditions doesn't correlate with your claims.

 

I do not run ArcDPS, but I'll still point out that the build really only has higher spike damage versus single opponents caught in traps. Viper does a lot of damage but remains very squishy.

 

What I am saying is that I have legitimately discovered a method for Untamed to be utilized as mostly a CC specialization that particularly focuses on locking down opponents while applying various cover conditions and remaining hard to track down. It is severely underrated even if it doesn't parse any DPS meters. My playstyle legitimately feels like an Untamed ACTUALLY should play and even Paper Roll could attest to it as I have roamed with him and he was surprised how well I played it when he initially said the build was bad before seeing it in action. In Zerg content it holds it's own and is capable of providing support through turtle pet and F3 Ambush, etc. Again, its not particularly a high damage build but it can be devastating in the right hands is what I'm saying. The changes I propose are pretty much the only missing pieces to the puzzle.

Finally, FF is again the only trait that helps everything synergize better currently, but I am aware and already prepared even if it gets removed, but necessary changes must come to Untamed before that is done.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

 

I do not run ArcDPS, but I'll still point out that the build really only has higher spike damage versus single opponents caught in traps. Viper does a lot of damage but remains very squishy.

 

What I am saying is that I have legitimately discovered a method for Untamed to be utilized as mostly a CC specialization that particularly focuses on locking down opponents while applying various cover conditions. It is severely underrated even if it doesn't parse any DPS meters. My playstyle legitimately feels like an Untamed ACTUALLY should play and even Paper Roll could attest to it as I have roamed with him and he was surprised how well I played it. In Zerg content it holds it's own and is capable of providing support through turtle pet and F3 Ambush, etc. Again, its not particular a high damage build but it can be devastating in the right hands is what I'm saying.

Do you understand where I'm coming from though? You are writing words but not numbers. The word "high" is kind of meaningless without a reference point. For example in the physical "real world" you can say high temperature coating and it can mean 500 degree or 1200 degrees.

The average player will have about 20K health in WvW so you can use that as a reference point. If people just go by feeling without numbers it isn't rooted in actual methodology. When I used to play in random squads more often there were rangers that insisted they were contributing on shortbow but actually did less DPS than supports because in their mind they got credit for kills due to tagging and "didn't die".

In addition, the value of CC is far lower in WvW when the opponent(s) has stacked stability or is pushing through a Inspired Reinforcement "road" that pulses stability. That is what makes spellbreaker far more potent than untamed in a squad environment because even if you don't actually CC someone you are able to remove one stack of stability and potentially all of it if the boonrip strips the stability. Chronos don't really do damage in a WvW squad setting but the Vicious Expression boonrip change (boonrip on CC) made it so that chrono became a staple.

Anyway I hope the above post from before helps you out in terms of understanding why the meta has always favored power.

[Pharmacist.5410]

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Do you understand where I'm coming from though? You are writing words but not numbers. The word "high" is kind of meaningless without a reference point. For example in the physical "real world" you can say high temperature coating and it can mean 500 degree or 1200 degrees.

The average player will have about 20K health in WvW so you can use that as a reference point. If people just go by feeling without numbers it isn't rooted in actual methodology. When I used to play in random squads more often there were rangers that insisted they were contributing on shortbow but actually did less DPS than supports because in their mind they got credit for kills due to tagging and "didn't die".

In addition, the value of CC is far lower in WvW when the opponent(s) has stacked stability or is pushing through a Inspired Reinforcement "road" that pulses stability. That is what makes spellbreaker far more potent than untamed in a squad environment because even if you don't actually CC someone you are able to remove one stack of stability and potentially all of it if the boonrip strips the stability. Chronos don't really do damage in a WvW squad setting but the Vicious Expression boonrip change (boonrip on CC) made it so that chrono became a staple.

Anyway I hope the above post from before helps you out in terms of understanding why the meta has always favored power.

 

I get you. Despite all the points you are making. All I am saying is that the currentl Untamed build I created is very viable and quite capable of fighting off multiple opponents (just like many other specs can), offers a unique set of mechanics to other professions and can be very rewarding yet the most punishing out of the ranger specs. Everyone is allowed to have fun in their own ways. You seriously would have to try to play it and succeed with it to understand me, sadly.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410

[Mell.4873]

13 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Untamed isn't an elite specs, fervant force is. You never swap off this trait. Literally never. You don't NEED the sustain trait when you can just spam your heal skill every 3 seconds because of fervant force. The problem is simply just that a trait that spam reduces all cool downs specializes in basically everything because you can go and equip any utility skills you want/need for a given situation in your flex spots and fervant force increases your effectiveness by allowing you to use it more. This means the sustain trait will never be viable because it's simply just worse for that intended purpose and the damage trait would need to be obscenely high because it would need to not only actually do more damage than fervant force (which does a ridiculous amount of DPS), but also be large enough of a damage increase to be worth taking over the utility benefits that FF brings. Not to mention it relies on your pets horrible AI to stack it and keep it stacked.

And as someone else said in the long run FF would get core ranger abilities gutted.

So nah remove that kitten and just make the class actually work without needing an insanely broken trait as a bandaid. Praying to god they make it a functional pet spec lol.

This is factually wrong. 
Almost every weapon does not play nice with Fervent Force and you have to reserve two utility slots for stuns.

Longbow and Greatsword are much better with either of the other two grandmasters.
Shortbow and Warhorn can work but you will need both other stuns and good timing.
Hammer and Off-hand Axe are the only viable weapons for Fervent Force.

 

The only Core ability that comes close to being balanced because of Fervent Force is the stuns themselves so Path of Scars.

[Zaret.1450]

14 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

Hi,

 

I have done enough testing with Untamed and I believe Untamed is in a much better state (almost right where it needs to be. I believe it is now actually incredibly viable to play in either power, condi, or hybrid regardless of what anyone says.. it STRONGLY depends on the player’s ability to figure it out.

 

Firstly, Fervent Force is a valuable option that MUST be left alone or atleast change its effects to reduce only certain cooldowns or put a useful condition applying trait in place of it. As a matter of fact, FF actually helps Untamed feel more fluid in battle. (Untamed is now capable of more than what most people think) As it offers a high reward playstyle while sacrificing healing or damage modifiers . It is an extremely necessary and well-deserved trait for an otherwise neglected specialization.
 

If elementalists are allowed to have an OBSURD amount of aura spam, guardians can have blocks spam, etc.. WHY take the fervent force option away when it is exactly what gives Untamed an OPTION to feel more fluid. Removing it would be taking 10 steps back in in the wrong direction. Trust me on this.

 

The 3 GM traits are already great as is since we are able to select the EXACT choices for Untamed to adapt to various encounters. Sacrificing either Fluidity, Sustain, or Damage when necessary. Fervent Force allows everything to “click” once the Untamed ranger has the rotations down. Without it would be a massive hit to the spec.
 

The MAIN focus should be fixing some of the unleash ambush skills..  For example, the short bow ambush should either be able to lock targets (just like renegade SB 3) or at least the window to cast it MUST be extended just a tad, as it becomes unavailable to cast nearly instantaneously. 
 

Finally, I suggest a rework of the pet system in WvW.. Like being able to pet stow while in combat (on CD) or at least reduction of the cooldowns when pets die because there is nothing to compensate for it and greatly hinders the performance of rangers outside of Soulbeast in extended battles like WvW zerging.
 

To counteract this, Rangers have to literally get out of combat to hop on their Warclaws to reset the pets. Which brings to light how much the pet system outside of soul beast has been neglected. It simply should NOT be this way in any game mode for the ANY ranger specializations.

 

Fix the pet problem and fix the cast window for ambush skills. That’s literally it. You guys have placed Untamed almost exactly where it needs to be.
 

Thanks,

 

-P R E D A T O R I A

Ill focus on wvw as the topic does, but firat id like to say somwthing about fervent force, in pve it recharges 4 seconds of every skill, and the dmg is perfectly plain to see, it is greatbif you do the rota right, while in wvw it recharges only 2 seconds wich is a significative diference, as pve has complained about this a bit id say maybe making it 3 seconds on both sides could be the go to, lowering pve dmg just a tad bit and making wvw a bit more rewarding.

for pets i think just removing pet health nerf in wvw would be good, i mean most pets have their healths halved in wvw, also making pet traits be all in beast mastery would be the best thing for pets overall, now you need beastmastery and nature magic for boons and stats on pets.

lastly id change ambush skills to the 2 skill, a permanent unleashed skill that you can use allwais, maybe with a bit more cd, and just hammmer has the timed unleashed autoattack, maybe make hammer skills area a little bit bigger in wvw, like hamer 3 and hammer 5 having a bit more area just for efficiency.

with that maybe untamed could realy work as a wvw zerg bruiser, because right now it doesnt realy compete

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like you're saying Untamed doesn't bring any new value for condition or power builds so therefore it makes no sense to even play Untamed (So why does it even exist).. since SB and Druid already serve a dominant purpose with either condi or power? 

May as well jus kitten delete it eh?

Untamed is more viable even with hammer/shortbow in group play than you may think (trust me on this) allowing for switches between melee/ranged on demand. I have actually found it's conditions to perform extremely well in both zergs and roaming, but TAKE NOTE that it has an extremely higher skill cap than any condition builds I've played or that you may have ever encountered.

OBVIOUSLY it has more benefits in smaller scale roaming. NO QUESTION. But jusr because it isn't predominant doesn't make it any less viable than Druid or SB.

Read this very carefully. As of right now I'll say this, Untamed is quite possibly stronger than either Druid or Soulbeast FOR condition based builds, as ridiculous as that may sound. It's just that not many people have it figured out AT ALL. It's extremely unsuspecting and surprising because the current meta promotes only power based builds.

SB is Strongest with power

Druid is Strongest at healing and conditions

Untamed ?????  Great Hybrid Option with great CC and conditions

There always has to be someone who is trying to promote some kind of build diversity in regards to "tunnel visioning" on condition based builds.

Yeah pretty much bang on what the real outcome will be if they remove Fervent Force. Like you said even now Soulbeast is better in almost every game mode except maybe PvP.

Even if they went ahead and buffed Untamed so that it had better Power or Condition damage it would ultimately be a boring result since we already have a Pure DPS class (Soulbeast).
I say double down and turn all the grandmasters into cooldown reductions traits so you have a tone of options to lower cooldowns and not just via CC.

[Hallow.7368]

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

This is factually wrong. 
Almost every weapon does not play nice with Fervent Force and you have to reserve two utility slots for stuns.

Longbow and Greatsword are much better with either of the other two grandmasters.
Shortbow and Warhorn can work but you will need both other stuns and good timing.
Hammer and Off-hand Axe are the only viable weapons for Fervent Force.

 

The only Core ability that comes close to being balanced because of Fervent Force is the stuns themselves so Path of Scars.

That's great now how often do you see untamed without hammer or axe axe? Condi is the only played variant because it's the only one that's not completely horrible (less DPS than reaper) and despite that the only power build I could find STILL uses FF and just sits on hammer. What you seem to not understand about the ability though is that reduces all equipped skills CDs which means that, yes. Core skills/utility and even untamed skills that wouldn't even be that outstanding without FF will inevitably get balanced around the fact that FF let's you spam them which then would also hurt non FF untamed anyways. It's not like core ranger utility is even that great to begin with so needing 2 slots for cc is inconsiquential ALSO storm spirit is core, not just axe 4. Frankly without FF untamed would just be horrible and at that point why not just use core ranger with nature magic and provide alac? Or better yet just play soulbeast? 

FF needs to go because it's enabling a spec that is otherwise uninspired garbage and for as long as FF exists these issues can't easily be addressed because FF is the entire spec, not untamed.

[Pharmacist.5410]

2 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

That's great now how often do you see untamed without hammer or axe axe? Condi is the only played variant because it's the only one that's not completely horrible (less DPS than reaper) and despite that the only power build I could find STILL uses FF and just sits on hammer. What you seem to not understand about the ability though is that reduces all equipped skills CDs which means that, yes. Core skills/utility and even untamed skills that wouldn't even be that outstanding without FF will inevitably get balanced around the fact that FF let's you spam them which then would also hurt non FF untamed anyways. It's not like core ranger utility is even that great to begin with so needing 2 slots for cc is inconsiquential ALSO storm spirit is core, not just axe 4. Frankly without FF untamed would just be horrible and at that point why not just use core ranger with nature magic and provide alac? Or better yet just play soulbeast? 

FF needs to go because it's enabling a spec that is otherwise uninspired garbage and for as long as FF exists these issues can't easily be addressed because FF is the entire spec, not untamed.

I’m honestly sick and tired of how some of you actually believe that FF is what makes “Untamed”..

 

Please take some time to develop some level of awareness and common sense as you read this.

Try it out in WvW and you’ll soon realize you’re better off running Restorative Strikes.

 

When it comes to WvW , FF has niche uses which only shines on rare occasions. PLEASE understand that I am simply trying to propose that FF should still remain in the Untamed but perhaps change how it works in each game mode or allow it to affect only certain cooldowns. I sure hope you’re capable of reading.

 

It simply does not define Untamed ranger in WvW. The heal trait and damage traits are way stronger. FF only provides access to be able to make hybrid builds work more efficiently. It’s really not that strong, it just gives you more options. So please stop referring to how strong it is in PvE. It’s extremely easy to CC bots not players.

[Mell.4873]

29 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

That's great now how often do you see untamed without hammer or axe axe? Condi is the only played variant because it's the only one that's not completely horrible (less DPS than reaper) and despite that the only power build I could find STILL uses FF and just sits on hammer. What you seem to not understand about the ability though is that reduces all equipped skills CDs which means that, yes. Core skills/utility and even untamed skills that wouldn't even be that outstanding without FF will inevitably get balanced around the fact that FF let's you spam them which then would also hurt non FF untamed anyways. It's not like core ranger utility is even that great to begin with so needing 2 slots for cc is inconsiquential ALSO storm spirit is core, not just axe 4. Frankly without FF untamed would just be horrible and at that point why not just use core ranger with nature magic and provide alac? Or better yet just play soulbeast? 

FF needs to go because it's enabling a spec that is otherwise uninspired garbage and for as long as FF exists these issues can't easily be addressed because FF is the entire spec, not untamed.

Again if they remove Fervent Force and instead replaced it with more Damage (number adjustments) it would just be competing with Soulbeast. 

No mater how we spin it right now Soulbeast is leagues better than Untamed. The real answer is Untamed needs something unique like Fervent Force to be viable in WvW or end-game content.

Soulbeast has Stances which are amazing utilities with lots of great application, i think you can get upwards of 5k extra Damage just by sharing them.
Untamed has weird duel utilities meant to apply a buff based on who is Unleashed at the time. Something substancal needs to be in Untamed to make even close to Soulbeast like Fervent Force.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Hallow.7368]

2 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like you're saying Untamed doesn't bring any new value for condition or power builds so therefore it makes no sense to even play Untamed (So why does it even exist).. since SB and Druid already serve a dominant purpose with either condi or power? 

May as well jus kitten delete it eh?

Untamed is more viable even with hammer/shortbow in group play than you may think (trust me on this) allowing for switches between melee/ranged on demand. I have actually found it's conditions to perform extremely well in both zergs and roaming, but TAKE NOTE that it has an extremely higher skill cap than any condition builds I've played or that you may have ever encountered.

OBVIOUSLY it has more benefits in smaller scale roaming. NO QUESTION. But jusr because it isn't predominant doesn't make it any less viable than Druid or SB.

Read this very carefully. As of right now I'll say this, Untamed is quite possibly stronger than either Druid or Soulbeast FOR condition based builds, as ridiculous as that may sound. It's just that not many people have it figured out AT ALL. It's extremely unsuspecting and surprising because the current meta promotes only power based builds.

SB is Strongest with power

Druid is Strongest at healing and conditions

Untamed ?????  Great Hybrid Option with great CC and conditions

There always has to be someone who is trying to promote some kind of build diversity in regards to "tunnel visioning" on condition based builds.

I mean yeah. kittening delete it and build a new spec the class has basically no point other than to be a clunky core ranger with kitten adept and master traits. An overpowered GM trait making it viable doesn't mean the class is good.. it just means it has a broken GM trait as a bandaid to force it to useful. That's not healthy. Would you cover up a surgical wound with a hello kitty bandage? FF will likely inevitably lead to unnecessary nerfs on things that are not issues without FF being present because if they nerf FF instead then the entire espec falls apart. Not fixing the problem while just covering it up instead just creates more problem later.

Also you're factually incorrect. DPS druid is bad it's literally just core condi ranger except your third trait has 8 out of the 9 choices being full support options the only damaging option (ancient seeds) being a small 5 stacks of bleeding every 10 seconds on a cc'd target and is mostly only used for cheesy pvp builds or if you want to play condi druid for fun in open world (spec with a pet and doesn't have the hastle of untamed). Condi SB is the best SB build followed by hybrid SB (which is just condi gear that uses a power burst profile so it more or less has the same DPS as condi SB, but is also more burst oriented). Power SB is actually the weakest of SB's builds right now. 

And besides all that untamed IS rangers best condi option by a mile. Third highest DPS in the game because of the thief dagger buffs and crazy catalyst buffs and was the highest in the game prior to those.

Just for comparison if you were to use alac untamed over full DPS untamed you lose 7k DPS and even then alac untamed has the exact same DPS as hybrid SB which is SB's highest DPS build and you only need 2 spirits (1 of which, storm, you use normally anyways) to provide perma alac with 0 boon duration meanwhile a druid with 100% boon duration needs 3 spirits minimum to keep up alac.

All because of FF 🙂

Non FF builds probably do as much if not less damage than the offensive support builds (minus alac untamed as it's a blatant outlier to the other offensive support builds) which is like ~30k. So I mean yea I guess they could just keep stacking up the damage modifiers on untamed to ludicrous amounts until ferocious symbiosis can compete.. or they could just remove FF and address the actual problems plaguing the spec. I'm glad they chose the second option because FF is utterly impossible to balance or at least fine tune without also nerfing weapon and utility skills that would also hurt non FF builds.

[Hallow.7368]

41 minutes ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

I’m honestly sick and tired of how some of you actually believe that FF is what makes “Untamed”..

 

Please take some time to develop some level of awareness and common sense as you read this.

Try it out in WvW and you’ll soon realize you’re better off running Restorative Strikes.

 

When it comes to WvW , FF has niche uses which only shines on rare occasions. PLEASE understand that I am simply trying to propose that FF should still remain in the Untamed but perhaps change how it works in each game mode or allow it to affect only certain cooldowns. I sure hope you’re capable of reading.

 

It simply does not define Untamed ranger in WvW. The heal trait and damage traits are way stronger. FF only provides access to be able to make hybrid builds work more efficiently. It’s really not that strong, it just gives you more options. So please stop referring to how strong it is in PvE. It’s extremely easy to CC bots not players.

You are comparing 2 entire different games modes and that is your issue, there's no discussion to be had here. Pvp and wvw are obviously different because you're not playing against mobs that let you hit them with your cc and chain decrease your abilities because your cc skills are constantly being refreshed. Traits that make you tankier like vow of the untamed and restorative strikes are obviously better in a pvp environment where you're dueling other players lmao but nobody kittening cares about that kitten in PvE it's basically useless. I don't understand why you feel the need to jump in on a discussion that doesn't even include you. Whether anet removing FF is a good decision or not does not affect you at all because you're already not using FF because you're playing content in which untamed fills an entirely different role and landing cc to chain refresh abilities isn't reliable (if you COULD do that then FF would then be BiS for that niche as well btw because you could spam the untamed healing skill that makes you invulnerable to damage as well as the elite that gives you a ton of stab and unique buffs damage reduction). FF completely defines the spec in all other content than wvw/pvp though so if you main those gamemodes and you don't use FF why the hell do you even care if it gets removed and why are you upset that people say the class is defined by the trait?

[Pharmacist.5410]

35 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

You are comparing 2 entire different games modes and that is your issue, there's no discussion to be had here. Pvp and wvw are obviously different because you're not playing against mobs that let you hit them with your cc and chain decrease your abilities because your cc skills are constantly being refreshed. Traits that make you tankier like vow of the untamed and restorative strikes are obviously better in a pvp environment where you're dueling other players lmao but nobody kittening cares about that kitten in PvE it's basically useless. I don't understand why you feel the need to jump in on a discussion that doesn't even include you. Whether anet removing FF is a good decision or not does not affect you at all because you're already not using FF because you're playing content in which untamed fills an entirely different role and landing cc to chain refresh abilities isn't reliable (if you COULD do that then FF would then be BiS for that niche as well btw because you could spam the untamed healing skill that makes you invulnerable to damage as well as the elite that gives you a ton of stab and unique buffs damage reduction). FF completely defines the spec in all other content than wvw/pvp though so if you main those gamemodes and you don't use FF why the hell do you even care if it gets removed and why are you upset that people say the class is defined by the trait?

Enough about PvE it’s completely irrelevant to the title of my post and I won’t mention it again.

You obviously aren’t reading, this entire post is about Untamed in WvW.  …

I personally run FF as it provides better options to be more fluid and smooth with running hybrid builds in WvW period. It’s no major difference but it is noticeable if you actually know how to play with extreme prowess. It takes an absolute high level of timing of skill to be able to utilize it which makes it all the more rewarding to use.

While other GM traits are perfectly viable as well if not even better for beginners who truly don’t understand Untamed’s current potential. Hence why FF does not make the kitten specialization.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410

[Hallow.7368]

35 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Again if they remove Fervent Force and instead replaced it with more Damage (number adjustments) it would just be competing with Soulbeast. 

No mater how we spin it right now Soulbeast is leagues better than Untamed. The real answer is Untamed needs something unique like Fervent Force to be viable in WvW or end-game content.

Soulbeast has Stances which are amazing utilities with lots of great application, i think you can get upwards of 5k extra Damage just by sharing them.
Untamed has weird duel utilities meant to apply a buff based on who is Unleashed at the time. Something substancal needs to be in Untamed to make even close to Soulbeast like Fervent Force.

Yes? I mean untamed is clearly better but only because FF carries it which is not healthy. So why exactly do you oppose it being removed so that untamed can have it's problems fixed? Regardless of whether it just becomes a "normal" DPS class it still has a different game play loop than SB. It uses a pet as where SB is basically just perma merged and that alone holds enough merit for some people to use it. I've seen plenty of damage build druids running around because they want to play with a pet and not forgo the entire reason they picked ranger to begin with. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter that untamed is doing it slightly differently because DPS is just DPS and in that case why even play SB if your full damage build is doing basically the exact same DPS as an untamed build that provides perma alac with only 2 spirits and 0 BD? It will be way better for the class to have FF removed so the class isn't surviving off a bandaid trait that forces untamed to be strong because it's overpowered than to let it exist and dominate the entire tree and be impossible to properly tune without messing with things that wouldn't be problems if FF was nerfed. 

Let's say the nerf path of scars.. so a core weapon that's like subpar got nerfed for enabling an overpowered build? Great. The only way they can tune FF is either by directly nerfing the trait which will just kill the build anyways or to increase the cool downs of utility and weapon skills and not to mention the amount you would need to increase the CDs in order to actually be impactful would be large. CD increases would also impact non FF builds way more than FF builds.

So what option is there? That FF increases all your cool downs by like 50% to compensate for it's effects? This would mean that you just camp one weapon set since FF only reduces the CD on active skills and your second weapon set would have massive cool downs and make already weaker weapons like shortbow entirely unviable and serve to make the class even more clunky and unintuitive not to picking traits that nerf you to compensate for their strong effects have proven to not be compelling (boon catalyst says hi). I guess you could make it so abilities that cc don't receive the CD reduction? But then how would that be any different from removing the trait anyways since it just wouldn't be good? It just has to be removed lol.

 

[Beddo.1907]

12 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

You obviously can’t read, this entire post is about Untamed in WvW.  Bless your heart.. Seriously…

 

FF provides options to be more versatile in WvW period. While other GM traits are perfectly viable as well. Hence why FF does not make the kitten specialization.

Just because you think FF provides options in one mode, doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed and this entire post has no real point.
If you want to talk about not removing a global part of the kit which hurts the entire class, you shouldn't base it on one mode, especially WvW where you can only use it in roaming.

And now again: FF will hurt ranger in the long run, due to forcing core and untamed changes to be balanced around it.
No matter how great or bad it is when and where, it's just bad for the game design.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Beddo.1907

[Hallow.7368]

10 minutes ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

Enough about PvE it’s completely irrelevant to the title of my post and I won’t mention it again.

You obviously can’t read, this entire post is about Untamed in WvW.  Bless your heart.. Seriously…

I personally run FF as it provides better options to be more fluid and smooth with running hybrid builds in WvW period. It’s no major difference but it is noticeable if you actually know how to play with extreme prowess. It takes an absolute high level of timing of skill to be able to utilize it which makes it all the more rewarding to use.

While other GM traits are perfectly viable as well if not even better for beginners who truly don’t understand Untamed’s current potential. Hence why FF does not make the kitten specialization.

Ok but you don't even know what they would be replacing it with. Have you ever considered that maybe the rest of the class isn't "fluid or smooth" because the foundation of the espec is riddled with flaws and is entirely carried by a bandaid trait to cover them up for pve and retardedly high % damage reductions/damage increases for pvp/wvw? In sPvP untamed just runs around with a long bow hitting people for half their health bar with the auto attack or one shot people with GS using their shadow step only to go into pet unleash and become a tank whenever someone attacks them.

so congrats! you aren't playing fervant force you're playing damage modifier: the class!

also you just admitted that FF is just a "small increase" in pvp and that GM 2 is better. Glad we agree that it's a bandaid trait then. Also even more reason for them to remove it.. they can make the class "fluid and smooth" without you having to use a trait that barely helps you! But yea they absolutely shouldn't remove the most problematic trait in 95% of the game just because you have concluded that for you and your 5% in an unrelated gamemode have a different optimal trait. Glad we have concluded that your post is basically irrelevant because you don't even need the trait as where said trait completely breaks the class and holds it back everywhere else. I'd love to play the defacto pet class in this game and actually get to utilize and interact with my pet in a meaningful way, but instead the only real way to play untamed the class is by using some stupid cringe gimmick that makes the class an unbalanceable, unfun spam all your buttons non stop playstyle. I was so excited for untamed on EoD release only to unlock it and see that the only reason it's ever worth using in pve over a core traitline is because of an uninteresting trait that other classes already have technically had very similar traits to in their core traits and ham fisted large damage modifiers to fix the fact that it does nothing except make your pet worse (prior to pet auto casts anyways) outside of that. It's just a bunch of sloppy ideas thrown together being forced into viability off of 1 trait.

 

[ApaWanka.2698]

10 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

That's great now how often do you see untamed without hammer or axe axe? 

Every day when I play PvP and WvW….. 80% of the Untameds on those game modes use LB GS with Ferocious Simbiosis. That is the PvP Meta.

 the build and works great so the class is not balanced around FF and works perfectly without it.  For Competitive modes players FF is a breeze of air that open build diversity for people that want to explore out of Meta adding a tempo trait that it’s nos just (another) a healing or dps (boring) modifier something different for ranger class. 

You keep speaking and ask for the trait to be removed based on your game mode (PvE) where that trait is a problem because the 4s thing is ridiculous.

We can agree that FF with 4s is overturned and carry the class on PVE, but don’t forget that there is more world beyond benchmarks with other approaches. 

open your mind and think that pother people play other game modes so we may have different points of view an requirements. we play different stuff. For us this trait brings a bit of build diversity so why don’t tone down your 4s to something more reasonable so it’s not abused and slow build diversity for you too PvE guys….

Edited December 8, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698

[ApaWanka.2698]

10 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Just because you think FF provides options in one mode, doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed and this entire post has no real point.
If you want to talk about not removing a global part of the kit which hurts the entire class, you should base it on one mode, especially WvW where you can only use it in roaming.

And now again: FF will hurt ranger in the long run, due to forcing core and untamed changes to be balanced around it.
No matter how great or bad it is when and where, it's just bad for the game design.

FF it’s just another way of tempo trait that use CD reduction approach. According to that any class with access to Alacrity or any kind of CD reduction should be gutted on the long run… but it’s not. 

Alacrity it’s been a thing for years without any issue as long as it’s done in a balanced way…. 

Just because it’s broke on PvE do t mean that it’s bad for the game or other game modes (that why Anet create the splits between game modes) so stop generalising. You have a trait that it’s been abused on PvE, balance it on the PvE split, change the overwhelming 4s gainst unmoving mobs to 2s or 1s and happy days. 

Alacrity, Improvisation (thief trait), Chrono F5, and other CD reductions are been in the game for a while without been a problem for their clases as long as they are balanced for each game mode 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698

[Zaret.1450]

For me FF is a cool trait, it just needs balance, maybe making it reduce cd by 3 seconds instead of 4 in pve would be an enought nerf, or maybe it could be 2.5 fir example.

The big problem is that you cant delete it and give nothing to untamed, as that would just be... well lets say bad.

If FF is nerfed untamed would need some things:

make unleash affect both pet and ranger, ranger gets dmg while unleashed and dmg reduction while pet is unleashed, give pet a reduced version of it.

put the trait in nature magic that copies boons to pets inside beastmastery, it would sinergice more and make more sense overall.

unleashed ambush skill are a problem as they are in the autoattack and have a very specific timing, the way they all work id say its better to put them in the weapon slot 2, as permanent skills while youre unleashed, in lb it will sacrifice one target burst for area dmg, in gs more or less the same, but i think overall it would be better and ill explain later why.

lastly id say untamed needs something new to compete in wvw, for starters pets health nerf should be lowered, they get their life halved and thus maybe make it so wvw health is 3/4 of pve health, just a tad bit more tankiness, next id say maybe increase a bit some skills area, hammer 3 and 5 would work much better on FF in wvw with that and in wvw ff isnt that overpowered at all at 2 secs recharge.

now why i think ambush should be on skill 2? well having them on autos and timed is a huge bother, and all unleash skills are made to hit a big area and be usefull in zerg fights, also the best resemblance in skill is the 2 skill, be it axe, hammer, sb, gs, etceteta, ambush looks like a modified 2 skill from that weapon, lb is a bit more diferent but at least in wvw id prefer all ambushes to be on slot 2, and you could maintain hammer in order to leave it be unique as hammer has all unleash skills, but you could make it so hammer unleash works with the ambush traits, that would make hammer a great cc weapon on normal while the unleashed does dmg and can strip boons.

With this, at least in wvw, untamed would probably find much more spots in wvw zergs and be a good elite there

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

FF it’s just another way of tempo trait that use CD reduction approach. According to that any class with access to Alacrity or any kind of CD reduction should be gutted on the long run… but it’s not. 

Alacrity it’s been a thing for years without any issue as long as it’s done in a balanced way…. 

One, there is a difference between alac, CD reduction and FF. Two, all of those CD reduction skills stack up.
FF can chain into effectively 10-100% CD reduction, which allows you to use a skill of you choice at stupidly high rate.
If you add the other two CD reduction effects, it becomes even easier to abuse FF and can be dangerous if each and every change isn't balanced around it. 

2 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

Just because it’s broke on PvE do t mean that it’s bad for the game or other game modes

This is a GLOBAL issue. Even if you split the trait values, it doesn't remove the problem.
The trait is still there affecting future changes. As an example: too much immunity, healing and other defense in skills and you can cycle into immortality. (fun fact you can already have 11s of immunity)
But why not just nerf those skills and problem solved? Because then builds that don't use FF end up with a nerf.

Other class exclusive CD reductions are nowhere near this, due to less triggers and no loop.

[Zyreva.1078]

41 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

FF and can be dangerous if each and every change isn't balanced around it.

Nothing has been balanced arround FF (because it didn't exist) and yet it isn't causing any real problems. Because it has counterplay and limitations and isn't actually "spam whatever skills you want on demand".

I think it's one of the better and more intrestingly designed trait and it's sad to see some want it gone. Guess the devs are right with dumbing down everything ...

Edited December 8, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[ApaWanka.2698]

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

One, there is a difference between alac, CD reduction and FF. Two, all of those CD reduction skills stack up.
FF can chain into effectively 10-100% CD reduction, which allows you to use a skill of you choice at stupidly high rate.
If you add the other two CD reduction effects, it becomes even easier to abuse FF and can be dangerous if each and every change isn't balanced around it. 

This is a GLOBAL issue. Even if you split the trait values, it doesn't remove the problem.
The trait is still there affecting future changes. As an example: too much immunity, healing and other defense in skills and you can cycle into immortality. (fun fact you can already have 11s of immunity)
But why not just nerf those skills and problem solved? Because then builds that don't use FF end up with a nerf.

Other class exclusive CD reductions are nowhere near this, due to less triggers and no loop.

First if all Im not claiming that FF is on its best implementation, I just think that a full remove would hurt build diversity. You can change it by Alacrity on CC and I would be still happy because still something new for rangers that add diversity.  
 

Anyway, again you are pointing from PvE approach, I understands why you don’t want both effects stack but again, that us just an issue on PvE……. Stack effects between few people on PvP or roaming is not a reliable enough (see roaming builds a videos on YT) and something based CC for Zerg plays where the standards are perma Stab during clash moments so tiggers on CC don’t add anything. 
 

FF is just a problem for PvE, so if you change the 4s  to 1s or convert it to Alacrity so don’t stack problem solved without a full remove. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698