Get rid of Quick and Alac Boon

[zeyeti.8347]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except that's a extreme and unlikely scenario that something 'will never be played' and that's not necessarily a problem anyways. That's just sensational rhetoric to make an issue people have with a specific build appear larger than it really is. 

It could be played , but it needs change to be played , and franckly i would really like the idea of a healer who heals when he dodge (hello firebrand) and give boons while landing like ironman , that could be fun , and i persnnaly think it doesnt need a lot of changes to work , it has already nice healing trough ventari , the boon extension (even if i made fun of it) could be really usefull , just need better boon access , especially alacrity or quickness.

i am just saying in terms of endgame content there will be always some classes way more powerfull than others , but that doesnt mean that what is bad need to stay bad , i reaffirm that something so weakly played , lacking popularity , is simply badly designed , the boon extension exist on the dodge of vindi as the heal exist , so they need to work on it .

Atm the healvindi is a halfbaked support 

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

It could be played , but it needs change to be played ,

There is no build in the game that needs to be changed in order to play it. 

Things that aren't popular endgame are not indications they need to be changed to be played. There is no need to work on any such builds. There is no game mechanic that requires these non-popular builds to get 'worked' on. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no build in the game that needs to be changed in order to play it. 

Good point i am bringing out my healwarrior in raids ! and my condi vindicator ! and my alacrity healscourge .

jokes away , i got your point , but a build who isn't efficient , for me , doesnt exist 

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Good point i am bringing out my healwarrior in raids ! and my condi vindicator ! and my alacrity healscourge .

Hey, as long as you can find a group that will take you (or the build even exists in the first place) ... fill your boots. I'm still right. There is no game mechanic that requires any build you want to play to have equal standing with any other. Therefore, there is no need for Anet to make changes to builds that aren't 'popular' just because they aren't.  

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hey, as long as you can find a group that will take you (or the build even exists in the first place) ... fill your boots. I'm still right. There is no game mechanic that requires any build you want to play to have equal standing with any other. 

I am pretty sure people will accept my healvindi on HTCM ... but i exist like a rabbit wherewolf.

I prefer bet winning on lotto than that ->

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

as long as you can find a group that will take you

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, zeyeti.8347 said:

I am pretty sure people will accept my healvindi on HTCM ...

Sure, if you can find that group ... again, like I said ... playing what you want is more a function of how you decide to play, not game mechanics. 

[zeyeti.8347]

No actually it's the game who decide how you play , just try htcm with a healvindi , you will see the problem , in OW you can go whatever you want , everything works , celestial warrior , condi catalyst , druid dps , healscourge dps , firebrand power , etc ...

The last content anet made for endgame make you more and more decide to play something efficient , so it's the game who "pushes" you how to play and which class to select.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, zeyeti.8347 said:

No actually it's the game who decide how you play , just try htcm with a healvindi , you will see the problem , in OW you can go whatever you want , everything works , celestial warrior , condi catalyst , druid dps , healscourge dps , firebrand power , etc ...

 

No the game does not decide for you what builds you can play, even in HTCM I have no doubt that if someone find a group that lets them, they can play healvindi. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No the game does not decide for you what builds you can play, even in HTCM I have no doubt that if someone find a group that lets them, they can play healvindi. 

yes sure ... but this group will never succeed then ...

Again it's a point of view , i have mine you have yours , but you can't deny profession preference in the game and the huge gap n % class played.

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

yes sure ... but this group will never succeed then ...

What is it about the HTCM that pre-determines that a 10 man group that contains a healvindi is already destined to fail?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

Well , i have to make a whole mechanic overview ..

Htcm is very dps oreinted as the area in the middle grow up pretty fast you have dps each dragon in a certaina mount of time , so having a healer who don't give alacrity nor quickness will hurt it a lot 

green mechanics : need at least 6 ppl (2per green) inside or else its a wipe (you can go full invu. but you will have a debuff of -25% damage dealt) , usually the two healers take the green far away (need a teleport , not a mov. skill , cause aoe fill the area , vindi has none).

Red taregeted area : again a mechanic who need the two healers to runaway from the group to dispatch a deadly red aoe .

If you look at how the fight is designed , your healer choice is the healmech , why ?

- while you are away , your mech can stay on the group and dispatch boons (even with the -50% boon duration nerf)

- you have a port who is also a breakstun , on a fairly low cd (for the mechanics up*mentionned)

-you have a group breakstun in your kit needed for zhaitan phase , cause this one make a huge aoe (whole map) who is undodeable , unblockable , that deal insane damage and fears everyone (cannot be stab. , need a breakstun)

Vindiheal lacks all of that.

I really get your point , thats was the sellign point of the game , "play how you want" but it is fairly different on last endgame content 

With the dps increase , a vindiheal in most raids should do , but it will be a burden and act like a "parasite" not filling his role , raids have standarts , as strikes , as fractals , you could play Hat or healvindi in fractals , but yoru group will suffer YOUR choice , there is a reason ppl choose hfb in fractals , but yes some fancy ppl like to try and hurt themself playing something else

As a lot of ppl it get on my nerves when i get stunned 5 times in a row , cause i play with a Hat and not a hfb.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Well , i have to make a whole mechanic overview ..

Htcm is very dps oreinted as the area in the middle grow up pretty fast you have dps each dragon in a certaina mount of time , so having a healer who don't give alacrity nor quickness will hurt it a lot 

green mechanics : need at least 6 ppl (2per green) inside or else its a wipe (you can go full invu. but you will have a debuff of -25% damage dealt) , usually the two healers take the green far away (need a teleport , not a mov. skill , cause aoe fill the area , vindi has none).

Red taregeted area : again a mechanic who need the two healers to runaway from the group to dispatch a deadly red aoe .

If you look at how the fight is designed , your healer choice is the healmech , why ?

- while you are away , your mech can stay on the group and dispatch boons (even with the -50% boon duration nerf)

- you have a port who is also a breakstun , on a fairly low cd (for the mechanics up*mentionned)

-you have a group breakstun in your kit needed for zhaitan phase , cause this one make a huge aoe (whole map) who is undodeable , unblockable , that deal insane damage and fears everyone (cannot be stab. , need a breakstun)

Vindiheal lacks all of that.

 

 

OK ... The fact is that there is nothing about the design of the HTCM encounter that would pre-determine a group that contains a healvindi to fail. 

I mean, you're pinning your whole argument that the game tells you what to play based on ONE encounter that's designed to be the most difficult in the game. That's rather absurd as well ... but I'm sure you didn't think of that or it's just convenient for you to completely ignore all the other content in the game. 

But I mean, if you still want to argue there is a NEED for Anet to change a bunch of builds because of the most extreme content in the game would be harder to complete successfully, I'm sure you have a compelling argument there. 😆

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... The fact is that there is nothing about the design of the HTCM encounter that would pre-determine a group that contains a healvindi to fail. 

I mean, you're pinning your whole argument that the game tells you what to play based on ONE encounter that's designed to be the most difficult in the game. That's rather absurd as well ... but I'm sure you didn't think of that or it's just convenient for you to completely ignore all the other content in the game. 

But I mean, if you still want to argue there is a NEED for Anet to change a bunch of builds because of the most extreme content in the game would be harder to complete successfully, I'm sure you have a compelling argument there. 😆

The true is this content exist (as you proclaim healvindi exist) and as many ppl and don't do OW , cause it bores me , so what we ask is just for some classes to have the same loves as others , we talk about efficiency , but you are more on the "fancy" side of the game trying the off meta things and think you are geniuses , because you playing something fancy , no that makes you ******* .

So stay in the fancy stuff , i play how i want . with efficiency !

And It's YOU who asked why not htcm , i rolled you all the mechanics , and then you argue that it's just on that content , yes on that content you will in 99,999% of the case  fail 

And as i said before you talk a lot for someone who don't want to show what he has done in the game , culture is like marmelade , the less you have the more you spread !

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

The true is this content exist (as you proclaim healvindi exist) and as many ppl and don't do OW , cause it bores me , so what we ask is just for some classes to have the same loves as others , we talk about efficiency , but you are more on the "fancy" side of the game trying the off meta things and think you are geniuses , because you playing something fancy , no that makes you ******* .

 

If your argument is that Anet needs to make changes to builds because of how they perform in an extremely small subset of group content that is intentionally difficult, then you just don't understand how this game works or why it's not a problem that builds aren't equally performing. 

healvindi brings it's own level of value, even if it doesn't have the things the OP says people want of what you speculate would be the outcome of its use in specific content you cherrypicked to make your point.

The answer as always: make your own groups. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The answer as always: make your own groups. 

And wait a whole day your 1/10 squad "healvindi , providing no alac , no quickness , w5 at dhumm" fills up , ... yes i like waiting ...

if you ask ppl what they want to play in endgame , there will certainly not be a lot of healvindi ...

As i still wonder who plays healvindi in OW 😏

you maybe can play and not feel like a parasite in your group cause you get no value out of your class , but that i a no-go for me , but as always do the game how you want , we are in a forum and each time someone appears and say it would be cool if this class had this or this ... you come in and say , "this class doenst need that to be played ..." so why is ther no healvindi in the game , why in my 8000 hours of play didn't i saw a single healvindi ? but it exist , yes ... maybe soemwhere in a lonely place hidden ina dead map OW a lone healvindi i killing lvl 6moas to get his chcken meat for power food , yes ...

you have more message than i have hours played the game , thats says long on how you take the "game" , you actually "farm" the forum , ... i let you there watching your own button belly , cya ...

also watching every reply to you being negative is quite funny , you must be very lonely in your own world , maybe you are that healvindi farming moas .

Edited January 4, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

40 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

if you ask ppl what they want to play in endgame , there will certainly not be a lot of healvindi ...

OK ... and that's not a problem that Anet needs to fix because if someone DOES want to play that, they likely have to create their own groups of accepting players to do so and every players has that capability. 

You think Anet needs to work on heal Vindi because it's low popularity indicates bad design. They don't, because not everything needs to be as popular as everything else. You call it 'half-baked support'. That's OK, because not everyone playing a non-DPS build wants to be filling multiple support roles.

There is no need for everything to have equivalent performance, especially at the level of highest difficulty. This isn't about Anet ensuring everyone is equal; it's about giving players options for different ways to play. You and the OP shouldn't base your premise for class change on a small fraction of group content relevant to an equally small fraction of players who can't think beyond their own limited approach to playing the game ... unless of course you don't really care about people listening to you.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Serephen.3420]

9 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And wait a whole day your 1/10 squad "healvindi , providing no alac , no quickness , w5 at dhumm" fills up , ... yes i like waiting ...

if you ask ppl what they want to play in endgame , there will certainly not be a lot of healvindi ...

As i still wonder who plays healvindi in OW 😏

you maybe can play and not feel like a parasite in your group cause you get no value out of your class , but that i a no-go for me , but as always do the game how you want , we are in a forum and each time someone appears and say it would be cool if this class had this or this ... you come in and say , "this class doenst need that to be played ..." so why is ther no healvindi in the game , why in my 8000 hours of play didn't i saw a single healvindi ? but it exist , yes ... maybe soemwhere in a lonely place hidden ina dead map OW a lone healvindi i killing lvl 6moas to get his chcken meat for power food , yes ...

you have more message than i have hours played the game , thats says long on how you take the "game" , you actually "farm" the forum , ... i let you there watching your own button belly , cya ...

also watching every reply to you being negative is quite funny , you must be very lonely in your own world , maybe you are that healvindi farming moas .

Iget your desire for wanting to play vindi as a healer but it's original design was no more focused on being a healer than weaver. Not impossible but not ideal. It was intended as more of a hybrid/bruiser going back andforth between damage and healing, probably had pvp/wvw in mind more than pve when it was first made.  Now, for better or worse  they removed the forced flipping of skills. Giving the illusion that it's a purist spec. 

 

It does leave a good question, what is to happen regarding future specs. Will they all just be damage dealers? Since now with 3 each most professions have one of each role covered. Will they make more alac/quick specs? Then what does that mean for current ones? That is perhaps an issue created with making elites too general and broad, rather than hyper focused. 

 

I suppose that is a challenge we'll have to see how Anet tackles in the next expansion.

[zeyeti.8347]

5 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Iget your desire for wanting to play vindi as a healer but it's original design was no more focused on being a healer than weaver. Not impossible but not ideal. It was intended as more of a hybrid/bruiser going back andforth between damage and healing, probably had pvp/wvw in mind more than pve when it was first made.  Now, for better or worse  they removed the forced flipping of skills. Giving the illusion that it's a purist spec. 

 

It does leave a good question, what is to happen regarding future specs. Will they all just be damage dealers? Since now with 3 each most professions have one of each role covered. Will they make more alac/quick specs? Then what does that mean for current ones? That is perhaps an issue created with making elites too general and broad, rather than hyper focused. 

 

I suppose that is a challenge we'll have to see how Anet tackles in the next expansion.

Was not me wanting it , but i kinda like the idea , in today gamer mind in gw 2 a healer m-u-s-t provide alac or quickness , if there is no source of it the class won't be played (or on very niche scenario , or by fancy ppl trying a challenge), even with calculation about a dps increase from support trading off concentration because vindi can give 1sec + boon uptime every dodge people will not adapt their stuff cause just one guy want to play healvindi or vindi support, imagine ppl not having leg armors and having to trade off deviner stuff for berserker stuff just cause one guy want to play healvindi , need to be realistic , that won't happen , i personnaly won't do it even if i was full leg.

I just think it could be nice to have such a healer increasing boon uptime , very few changes could make it good like alacrity on dodges , etc ... the dodge heal and the dodge +1 sec boon exist , but nobody use it .

i just said it could be nice to do that , just an idea .

Edited January 5, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... and that's not a problem that Anet needs to fix because if someone DOES want to play that, they likely have to create their own groups of accepting players to do so and every players has that capability. 

You think Anet needs to work on heal Vindi because it's low popularity indicates bad design. They don't, because not everything needs to be as popular as everything else. You call it 'half-baked support'. That's OK, because not everyone playing a non-DPS build wants to be filling multiple support roles.

There is no need for everything to have equivalent performance, especially at the level of highest difficulty. This isn't about Anet ensuring everyone is equal; it's about giving players options for different ways to play. You and the OP shouldn't base your premise for class change on a small fraction of group content relevant to an equally small fraction of players who can't think beyond their own limited approach to playing the game ... unless of course you don't really care about people listening to you.

I agree not everything can be equall , but there is a limit at what can be usefull and what is literally garbage tier , if you don't look about performing you cannot understand my point , and it's ok , neither i understand yours .

My point is to look at what need to be erwork , you need to look at numbers , if a class isn't played in such and such content , then their is a little bit of work needed to be done on it 

just look a druid , it wasn't played , they made few changes (mostly Qol and some huge buffs) and it is back to a fairly ncie 5-6% played in endgame content , what did they change ?

- staff AA and skill 2 targetable on allies 

- avatar skill 2 with no cast and very low cd (1sec)

those two small changes made it back , and as i personnaly play it now i can enjoy that long range uber healer , see no need for very big changes , just emitting ideas here , as i know anet look at forums , and take sometimes a step back to think .

Another example is previous huge patch , ppl where complaining about weaver having literally no buffs , a lot of ele players where angry cause it really needed some buffs to be competitive , and anet made those change it was a +10% damage and a+5% condi damage flat , so emitting ideas in the forums could actually help the balance and keep a meta changes in the game , you on the other side help not a lot , you have flat ideas , little understanding how the game works in the endgame , and if you do prove me i am wrong show me some data , i do't care about blabla , if you want to see mine , just kp.me me , and you will see that i have a good understanding how the endgame works , i don't like throwing myself flowers , but i can tyalk about what i know , i will never say something like that about wvw and pvp cause i am garbage at those two content , my philosophy is know your stuff then talk about it .

And even a little part of the community is doing the endgame stuff , why bother about OW ppl who won't literally notice a single change , everything work in open world , you can play your healvindi , minstrel longbow warrior , and sovort , yes you could play it in endgame content , but i don't know you , but i doesnt like the feeling of being a leech or a parasite in my squad , providing nothing in the squad. The meta changes doesnt affect OW a single bit , cause 3/4 of the ppl doesnt care about efficiency , to prove that just run arcdps on meta events and look at ppl doing 2-3k damage/sec , they don't care , so balance is mostly adressed for pvp , wvw and endgame content , don't tell me that the regular mech player OW noticed his robot stats where 50% lower because his mech was 360 range away from him for more than 5sec ... and just emitting dieas again , you just saying the same as usuall "this class is played" yes at 0,1% rate , does it exist though ? for me , no , but free to you to think the opposite , you seem to preach a non change of the game and go on agree every change anet made was good , remind the banner rework on warrior ? that indeed was good (sarcasm off) i must put it cause you seem to lack to notice sarcasm , sorry.

Edited January 5, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Kodama.6453]

6 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I suppose that is a challenge we'll have to see how Anet tackles in the next expansion.

There might still be some other gameplay niches to explore.

For example, over all these years Anet has removed alot of boon removal from engineer. Acidic elixirs, which made all our thrown elixirs deal damage to enemies and remove a boon from them, got removed. Minefield no longer removes boons as well.

As a result, engineer is the third worst class to punish boon spam on enemies. Just elementalist and guardian are worse, since they have no boon removal at all, but engineer is not much better with just having a single boon removal ability on throw mine.

So new specs which help removing boons from enemies are a possible niche to explore for future elite specs, which also already happened before. Warrior and ranger were incapable of removing boons, too, until they introduced elite specs giving them that ability (spellbreaker and untamed, respectively).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

I agree not everything can be equall , but there is a limit at what can be usefull and what is literally garbage tier ...

Great, then you have to accept the fact that not everything can be meta and that there are builds that won't meet your 'numbers' requirements for endgame content and it's not a problem if they don't. 

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

My point is to look at what need to be erwork , you need to look at numbers , if a class isn't played in such and such content , then their is a little bit of work needed to be done on it 

No, there is no need to be reworked because not everything needs to perform above this threshold of performance you have imagined. People already have a method to play builds they want. 

PS ... I like the way you say you understand there are limits and not everything can be equal, than LITERALLY contradict yourself in the next sentence by saying Anet needs to rework things if they aren't played in (endgame) content. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:13 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Great, then you have to accept the fact that not everything can be meta and that there are builds that won't meet your 'numbers' requirements for endgame content and it's not a problem if they don't. 

No, there is no need to be reworked because not everything needs to perform above this threshold of performance you have imagined. People already have a method to play builds they want. 

PS ... I like the way you say you understand there are limits and not everything can be equal, than LITERALLY contradict yourself in the next sentence by saying Anet needs to rework things if they aren't played in (endgame) content. 

A whole class not played in endgame , except from some niche roles , is a problem , there are some e-specs designed for wvw , pvp , pve . Look at willbender ? it was designed for pvp obviously (at first , might change ) , look at thief and ele , those two see literally no plays at endgame , if only just 1 of those 3-especs from each class sees play that would be great 

vindicator is not a good example , cause rev herald is coming back strongly , but emitting an idea on somethign new so it can see a new dawn is not bad 

What do you want ? the game stays like that ? you agree everything the devs says ?

nobody knows what are your game boundaries and what content you do , it's just you saying it , no proof or whatsoever.

And it is not me saying this class or this class is garbage tier (while i agree) it's a whole community , having some changes to shake up the meta isn't bad at all.

and yes i private myself of playing some classes , cause in my mind they are garbage , cause i want to be efficient in whatever content i do , if i play dps and get scored by a support , there is a problem ... for me . But seems you don't care being a burden to your group ...

And as usual the average ppl playing OW only doesnt care about some numbers tweeks or some reworks , they won't even notice it.

Edited January 7, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

A whole class not played in endgame , except from some niche roles , is a problem , 

OK ... that problem doesn't exist if people make their own teams to play the builds they want. Problem solved. 

Furthermore, there is no requirement from the game any build/spec/class is played a certain amount ... so tell me why it's a problem if certain builds aren't getting enough gameplay?

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that problem doesn't exist if people make their own teams to play the builds they want. Problem solved. 

Furthermore, there is no requirement from the game any build/spec/class is played a certain amount ... so tell me why it's a problem if certain builds aren't getting enough gameplay?

 

 

As i said before , just try open a lfg and say you want to do random hard content playing healvindicator , or do some content with pugs and be lackluster in your role (ie: giving alacrity 25% of the time ) what will happen you think ? i said it many times but you leave i na  world of carebears , just think about ppl getting a theif or a an ele as first char and wanting to do endgame content with them and being performant ... There should be a least 1 e-specs competitive in all game modes , just one ...

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

that problem doesn't exist if people make their own teams to play the builds they want

yes , but ppl don't do that so problem exist , just look in lfg do you see ppl asking for a heal who doesnt give the key boons .

you come again and again with the "if ppl... " there is no "if" ppl don't want it. 

And again i am expressing my opinion here and you seem to not lash out on me , i just expressed "it would be cool if ..." same as you stated before , difference is you arguibly think that all players think like you , but they are ppl angry about currents tate of the game balance , and so we are right to express our opinion , and not being constantly harassed by your message .

As now for my own sanity i put you back to the Bl , you are not worth my time , forum farmer troll .

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

yes , but ppl don't do that so problem exist , just look in lfg do you see ppl asking for a heal who doesnt give the key boons .

I see people looking for healscourges for some content. Yeah, mostly because they have a rez mechanic which makes them great carries for some encounters, but it counts. It's a heal build without any of the two key boons. 😛