Get rid of Quick and Alac Boon

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Alright, cool. Can I join you the next time you do end game content with my core turreteer build? I also would like to play it, but people keep telling me i shouldn't just because I want to play it as dps and deal not high enough numbers for them (kitten toxic guys telling me my 7k dps is not high enough 😞 )

Lemme know if you need a Soldier/minion death magic reaper healer on that run!

[Nightstorm.8024]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Alright, cool. Can I join you the next time you do end game content with my core turreteer build? I also would like to play it, but people keep telling me i shouldn't just because I want to play it as dps and deal not high enough numbers for them (kitten toxic guys telling me my 7k dps is not high enough 😞 )

 

Dude I wouldn't care. DPS something long enough and they all die the same. 

[khawki.4205]

37 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Your right about your own group, but I can't tell you how many times I make my own group only for 50% of them to ask, who is bringing quick? Who is bringing Alac? Which is fine for people to ask, but a lot of them, once they hear from me that its a free-for-all.. you can play what you want, we don't care about quick or alac, quite a handful of them leave. Or if you don't clear on first try, quit instantly. 

That's why you should state it right at the beginning, in LFG. People left because they joined not knowing they won't get experience they want.

As for leaving after not clearing first try...that's another issue that is persistent in both meta and nonmeta squads.

[khawki.4205]

37 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Your right about your own group, but I can't tell you how many times I make my own group only for 50% of them to ask, who is bringing quick? Who is bringing Alac? Which is fine for people to ask, but a lot of them, once they hear from me that its a free-for-all.. you can play what you want, we don't care about quick or alac, quite a handful of them leave. Or if you don't clear on first try, quit instantly. 

That's why you should state it right at the beginning, in LFG. People left because they joined not knowing they won't get experience they want.

As for leaving after not clearing first try...that's another issue that is persistent in both meta and nonmeta squads.

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

boons are suppose to be complimentary

And they are.

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

and not mandatory. 

And they aren't.

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Those suggesting I just delete character because I won't jump on the boon bandwagon will be ignored.

The only person talking about "deleting your character" for some weird -and intentionally overblown- reason is... that's right, you. So how do you want to ignore that one person who keeps repeating it?

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

The game is suppose to allow every class to play,

It does.

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

Nope, that's either false due to being misinformed or straight up a lie.

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

If you guys can't see how this is toxic then I can't help you. But your locking people out of content so some dps can feel "bigger number". 

You're not locked out of content, nobody as and no class is. Stop making up these things in a bad attempt to play a victim.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Nice double think. Its complimentary, but its also mandatory. 

No, these boons are not mandatory. Some teams make the boons a requirement for their comps but do not misinterpret that as mandatory to successfully do the content. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, these boons are not mandatory. Some teams make the boons a requirement for their comps but do not misinterpret that as mandatory to successfully do the content. 

Try KO CM without alac and quickness

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Try KO CM without alac and quickness

A few exceptions do not change what I said (... and I'm pretty sure that even in the hardest content, there are strategies that could complete those content without those boons, it would simply take longer). In fact, what you say reinforces the message the OP is getting from all the people here:

Make your own teams. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

18 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Try KO CM without alac and quickness

I mean... it's been done by DPS Holosmiths...

[SuavePuppy.2809]

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

The game is suppose to allow every class to play

I mean, every class can play, but that doesn't mean every one of those classes can bring any build. 

 

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

Alright so that's just false.

 

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

My solution to the problem is simple, remove quickness and alac and apply them to all characters naturally. Everyone has swift and alac since their so dam important apparently that people would rage quit if they didn't get them. 

First of all, you have to consider how that would affect WvW and PvP, it's not as simple as making them baseline.

 

1 hour ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

I want to play Heal Vind, but because it doesn't provide 2 stupid boons, the community is toxic because it just wants its 2 stupid boons

So again I ask, would you be happy if they added Alac back to the Heal Vind build? And "I wanna play X" in instanced content doesn't really mean anything if you don't bring what the team wants. 

 

1 hour ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

If your running a spec that has these boons, sure you'll be accepted, but all other classes get the boot. 

Again, "all the other classes" amounts to... Two classes? I'm sorry Heal Vind got the short end of the stick there.

 

1 hour ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Your not going to convince me that out of 27 classes, only a handful should be played for end-game content because of 2 stupid boons.

A handful: QuickDPS catalyst, Quickheal catalyst, Heal Alac Tempest, DPS Alac Tempest, Alac Mirage, Quick Harbinger, Alac Untamed, Alac Druid, Quick DPS Scrapper, Heal Quick Scrapper, HAM, DPS Alac Mech, Alac Spectre, Alac Willbender, Quick DPS FB, HB, Quickness Berserker/Spellbreaker/Bladesworn, Quick DPS Herald, Heal Quick Herald, AlacRen...

 

But, I understand what you're saying.

The meta of the game revolves around these two boons to the point where players expect them. Which is why if you make your own group, make it known that it's chill or people can bring whatever they want in the LFG to temper expectations. But when it comes to joining other people, you might want to only join chill groups. Saying I wanna play X regardless of what the team needs just leads to people not wanting to play with you. You can say "screw the DPS players and their numbers" all you want, but at a certain point it becomes selfish to say "I don't care if 4 members of my subgroup practiced their role with these boons". 

Honestly, I think they could get rid of Alac, and perhaps it should've never been introduced in the first place. Maybe they could make quickness baseline across the board - it would certainly shake the game up. But realistically I don't see them going anywhere.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

 

Dude I wouldn't care. DPS something long enough and they all die the same. 

 

That summarizes the core of the issue nicely. You don't care, many other players do.

 

Here are your avenues of approaching this issue (sorted by decreasing chance of success):

 

1. learn to roll and enjoy classes that are desired and fit the group compositions (this remains valid for ANY balance change or patch because balance will change eventually).

Your impact on this approach: pretty much as high as can be.

Arenanets impact on this: almost non existent (their balance changes will have no effect if you roll with whatever comes out on top).

 

2. find players who will take you on your off-meta build/s and accept you for who you are and what you enjoy to play

 

Your impact on this approach: intermediate because in the end, you will have to find others willing to play with you.

Arenanets impact on this: also intermediate because balance will affect how "undesired" your build/s might be

 

3. vent on the forums and demand things get changed. Wait until the developers decide that your suggestion is the one they should roll with.

 

Your impact on this approach: nonexistent and also irrelevant since even should the developers change something which benefits your desired build, eventually future balance will shift things again. 

Arenanets impact on this: pretty much maximum since they design and balance the game as they see fit and will continue to do so even if it favors or doesn't favor specific builds.

 

TL;DR:

Venting is one way to approach the problem at hand even if it rarely leads to success. A better way would be to diversify the classes/builds one plays and try to have some at least semi desired ones at hand.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[The Boz.2038]

Why not try DPS Vind, anyway? Why insist on heal if you can't put together "the whole package"?

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Heal Vind provides boons, just not ALAC or Swift. If I go to this group and tell them I provide protection and resolution, they will just LOL and kick me. So this is not a valid point. Its not about just boons, its about Alac and Swift. 

 

They are overpowered, they control groups, and its made the community toxic and revolve around them. You don't see "protection" groups or "regen" groups. Nope, just these 2 and always these 2. There is probably 10+ classes that can heal in this game, but the one they mostly call out for is HAM. Do you know why? For a single boon. 

 

Again, I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. This isn't me crying out that I can't play heal vind, its that if I don't provide 1 of 2 of these boons, then YOUR OUT. People don't want you. Which makes these boons ridiculous and need to be seriously reworked and I will harp on that until I die. People have just accepted their fate of swift/alac boons and they don't fight it, they just switch to a class they probably don't want to play just to get the content done so they can get their little legend insight. 

You have Revenant all wrong.

• Herald boosts boon duration along with quickness
• Renegade boosts outgoing damage and life steal along with Alacrity
• Vindicator has emergency Stun breaks and boons along with burst healing

If you want to be a sweaty nerd about it play Vindicator as a hybrid since its entire mechanic is flipping between damage and healing. Just say you're a DPS and not advertise you are healing too.

 

Here is an example, I play Virtuoso which is classed as a selfish DPS since it does not have any Boons. If I throw in the Inspiration skill tree which drops my DPS by 5k I can now heal my Raid party. No one knows I do this, but it helps immensely during some fights where people cant stay alive.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Why not try DPS Vind, anyway? Why insist on heal if you can't put together "the whole package"?

He could just play a Hybrid and just not tell them he is healing. If he started the group no one would complain if they can do the content.

Most if not all Boon+DPS can perform equally and sometimes better than a regular DPS, so I don't get his point.

[DobyCool.3701]

What if they make a change where quick, alac, might, fury, all the offensive boon are not share between players, every dps has a way to prement keep them, and if you f-up your rotation, it is your fault. all the defensive boon got cut in duration so no one can 100% cap them.  They should be only used in satiation where it needs. Maybe stuff like protection can be even more power like -50% or 60% of dmg, but only for short amount of time, so that healers had to watch out on when to used them, and dps will need to side step aoe.  I already seeing ppl be like why you make the game so hard.

[RenneBright.2473]

On 12/12/2022 at 9:00 AM, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Those suggesting I just delete character because I won't jump on the boon bandwagon will be ignored. I won't tell them to go delete their character because they won't play toxic meta builds. The game is suppose to allow every class to play, but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

 

If you guys can't see how this is toxic then I can't help you. But your locking people out of content so some dps can feel "bigger number". 

 

My solution to the problem is simple, remove quickness and alac and apply them to all characters naturally. Everyone has swift and alac since their so dam important apparently that people would rage quit if they didn't get them. 

Toxicity is reflected in an overall player's behavior + mindset, not really in a build.

If you actually checked most of the patch notes, you'd have seen that Ham got nerfed in August 28, I didn't often see it that played in pugs since that & Fb got nerfed as a whole since November 29 patch. The "toxic mindset" would be to kick a quick/alac heal because he isn't playing Hfb. Hfb isn't the only healer boons spec, that is if you actually bothered searching a minimum.
And you're already mistaking swiftness for quickness at the next sentence :D

I rarely had a "toxic environment" as you said in all my raids pugs run, the minority being DPS player with a big ego, blaming mindset but has 0 mechanics knowledge of the bosses (also happened albeit less commonly to a support) which I ended up kicking anyway.

Alac heal Vindi could've actually been a thing, pre-Salvation traits rework that is. Are you going to say it was toxic? It looks rather opportunistic from your thought process, seeing you're playing heal Vindi after the Salvation traits got reworked xP (no more Alac from Nature's Harmony).
If you don't want to meet the demands for an optimal/decent squad, that is toxic in itself, and I'm not talking about playing meta supports here.

 

On 12/11/2022 at 10:59 PM, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Your literally proving my point. If the game got to a point where it was like "No Aegis, instant kick" or "No Protection, Your out!" then the game is fundamentally flawed.

 

Your basically saying unless I provide two BOONS out of the 10 boons that exist, that somehow I'm the problem and not the boons. It just means these boons are over-powered by nature that teams require them, rather than they would be nice add ons to the playstyle.

 

Strikes and Raids have become TOXIC because of it and anyone who disagree's probably runs a favorable build that they don't want to see nerfed, so they have a invested interest. 

Do you actually know raids bosses? You can try doing TL, SH, Qadim, Sabir etc. without Protection, but enjoy getting one shot then :D

Aegis is only a "must-have" on Deimos CM but besides that not really that mandatory. Stability works fine for most of the CC attacks (except the knockback from Deimos's Annihilate).
You should try actually raiding properly before making conflations about "everyone is toxic in raids/strikes".

[Dreams.3128]

Ah yes, the statement finally comes out.

'The community is toxic' and 'Everyone is toxic in raids'.

If I could get a penny for every person that complained about not getting their way with the groups they curse because of their bad attitudes, I'd be rich. OP clearly does not care about his comps or have enough respect for others to realize certain areas of content requires certain tools to simply make things simple for the encounter. Because let's be honest, at the end of the day these kind of statements and outbursts come from individuals that do not want to work around others, but they simply want to play the game THEIR way and that's it. Probably the most selfish of mindsets I have had the displeasure of encountering during my time of leading groups for folks.

[Jthug.9506]

Actually I agree, they removed all the unique buffs, may as well just bake alac and quickness into food/utility and take it away from players too. That way no one has any uniqueness at all and it doesn’t matter what you play or what comp you bring to fights.

 

in fact why not remove all player based boon generation and just give people 12 hr duration boons when they enter any map or instance that way everyone is always on a level playing field.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Jthug.9506

[Thron Stal.9367]

Didn't need to read it, GET Rid of them both. Ty

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Actually I agree, they removed all the unique buffs, may as well just bake alac and quickness into food/utility and take it away from players too. That way no one has any uniqueness at all and it doesn’t matter what you play or what comp you bring to fights.

 

in fact why not remove all player based boon generation and just give people 12 hr duration boons when they enter any map or instance that way everyone is always on a level playing field.

They removed the class-specific ones, so those don't become "a must" with spots reserved specifically for those exact classes/builds. Quick and alac can be -and are- delivered by all of the classes (which doesn't mean every class can do both, not that it changes much about the point here since every class can access at least one of them), so the two situations you're talking about in your post are not the same.

[Kuma.1503]

On 12/12/2022 at 1:51 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

The "cost" of adding quickness or alacrity to a heal build (that has access to it) is pretty much nil. The cost of adding those to a DPS build is 25-33% DPS. You are free to come to your own conclusion on which is the better deal there.

No cost... unless you're HAT for some reason. Not sure why they choose between Heal on Aura and Alac, you pretty much always choose alac for support in PvE. 

[Mell.4873]

13 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Actually I agree, they removed all the unique buffs, may as well just bake alac and quickness into food/utility and take it away from players too. That way no one has any uniqueness at all and it doesn’t matter what you play or what comp you bring to fights.

 

in fact why not remove all player based boon generation and just give people 12 hr duration boons when they enter any map or instance that way everyone is always on a level playing field.

Well when we had banner Warrior I bet It didn't feel great to just play that day in and day out because it was required for your raid group. 

The system now gives you many options, there could be a best in slot but you have to spend the time to learn the class for that particular Raid boss. 

The Support dynamic is much healthier now since like the OP doesn't want to do, Revenant can literally play any Raid role in the game.

That is Amazing game design. 

[Kodama.6453]

6 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

No cost... unless you're HAT for some reason. Not sure why they choose between Heal on Aura and Alac, you pretty much always choose alac for support in PvE. 

Eh, that still is really not that much of a cost because tempest can still dish out great healing numbers even without that trait that makes auras heal.

Druid is the same, but with might instead of alacrity. Grace of the land gives might whenever they hit allies with CA skills, while another grandmaster trait increases healing done to allies by 20%, which is pretty big. Druids still use grace of the land, tho, since they already heal enough without the healing grandmaster trait and helping to hold up might is generally more useful than overcapping on healing even more.

So I don't think it really is that much of a cost for HAT either.

[Kuma.1503]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Eh, that still is really not that much of a cost because tempest can still dish out great healing numbers even without that trait that makes auras heal.

Druid is the same, but with might instead of alacrity. Grace of the land gives might whenever they hit allies with CA skills, while another grandmaster trait increases healing done to allies by 20%, which is pretty big. Druids still use grace of the land, tho, since they already heal enough without the healing grandmaster trait and helping to hold up might is generally more useful than overcapping on healing even more.

So I don't think it really is that much of a cost for HAT either.

On paper, it's not that big a deal. And realistically, HAT is still a good build even without Elemental bastion. The healing output still trumps HAM especially if you run a staff. 

Heal on aura is a very significant though. It's overkill if you run Harrier/Minstrel stats + rune of monk, but If you're running a cele hybrid, you definitely notice a major difference in healing output with and without Elemental Bastion. If HAT had Elemental Bastion, you could potentially drop healing power entirely and run viper/rit stats and still heal for a ton. 

Keep an eye out if Anet ever does decide to merge the alac trait with Elemtental Bastion. HAT will become insane if they do. Unless they reduce its effectiveness to compensate, which I would be more than okay with. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

On paper, it's not that big a deal. And realistically, HAT is still a good build even without Elemental bastion. The healing output still trumps HAM especially if you run a staff. 

Heal on aura is a very significant though. It's overkill if you run Harrier/Minstrel stats + rune of monk, but If you're running a cele hybrid, you definitely notice a major difference in healing output with and without Elemental Bastion. If HAT had Elemental Bastion, you could potentially drop healing power entirely and run viper/rit stats and still heal for a ton. 

Keep an eye out if Anet ever does decide to merge the alac trait with Elemtental Bastion. HAT will become insane if they do. 

Well, then how it currently is it is good design, no?

A class shouldn't be able to perform the healer role in a raid comp without any investment into healing power and go for damage stats instead.