Get rid of Quick and Alac Boon

[Wolfshade.9251]

17 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Where's Thief Quickness support?

Busy tanking Adina 😏

[Dibit.6259]

5 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Decided to create my own team.

 

Guess what happened? "You don't have alac, i'm out".

 

People EXPECT these boons. As I said before, they are MANDATORY. Just creating your own group does nothing to influence people otherwise.

 

The fact that this forum defends these 2 boons is proof enough just how mandatory they are. 

Depending on the content, yes they are mandatory. Raids for example are time gated. So alac and quickness is needed here but also decent dps. Why would you sacrifice more pure dps players when a healer can cover one of these boons? And even for content not time gate like strikes or fractals, having less dps means mechanics/phases/overall damage to player lasts long and can be stressful or result in a fail.

 

These elements of the game were designed as coordinated group content where certain players need to preform certain roles and responsibilities, and anet decided quick and alac were key boons, which makes sense due to what they do. And its within players expectancy for these to be provided as good dps and performance needs these boons.

 

Your build does not fit this content sorry.

[khawki.4205]

To be honest, alacrity and quickness are issue and probably game would be better off without them.

But I highly doubt it is possible to remove them at this point, after so many years...

As for why I see them an issue? It's not because they are mandatory, they are not, we can clear raids without them, we can still fit in time. But we want to do everything we can to make run smooth and easy (and fun!). I think these boons are an issue because they are limiting. But not in a way people talk about it here, it's not about what class can and cannot provide it. It's about flexibility of how we can build our characters. On healers we run Harrier and Minstrel to get enough boon duration while also having high healing. But the key here is boon duration. If we weren't supposed to provide those boons we would be able to run many other gear combinations. Now that everyone gets some kind of basic boons, getting rid of quickness and alacrity would allow to personalize builds.

But as I said, after so many years, we can't just remove something, backlash would be huge, many people would leave, people don't like loosing power and don't like change.

However this is my personal opinion, I do not stand in total opposition, I like playing quickness builds both as DPS and healer. I will still enjoy game despite what I personally believe would be healthier for the meta.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

10 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Guess what happened? "You don't have alac, i'm out".

1) So did you ask for DPS Alac and DPS quick to cover for your builds lack of them, or did you decide to run without them when, yes, people expect them by now because almost all classes can bring one or the other.

2) So what is the root of the issue? Are you bothered that the boons exist in the first place? Or is the problem that players expect them at this point? Or is it that you feel left out because your build doesn't bring one of them and you'd like to have the Alac brought back into the heal Vindicator build? What is the actual criticism here?

6 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

when I try to start a squad in lfg requesting 2 healers and 8 dps, the players who are in the squad, leave squad and some even raise concerns why no alac, no quick and make a big deal out of it

Because people practice with these boons because frankly, it's really easy to keep them up at this point. Will it really matter on something like Shiverpeaks? No, but as a DPS you sit there and ask why you bothered to practice a rotation when you can't perform it now. 

[Nightstorm.8024]

Your literally proving my point. If the game got to a point where it was like "No Aegis, instant kick" or "No Protection, Your out!" then the game is fundamentally flawed.

 

Your basically saying unless I provide two BOONS out of the 10 boons that exist, that somehow I'm the problem and not the boons. It just means these boons are over-powered by nature that teams require them, rather than they would be nice add ons to the playstyle.

 

Strikes and Raids have become TOXIC because of it and anyone who disagree's probably runs a favorable build that they don't want to see nerfed, so they have a invested interest. 

 

I don't care if people lose dps. Boo-Hoo, I lost big number. If Big number is all this game is about, just give everyone a auto-kill 1 shot button and call it a day. Game is suppose to be about skill and while dps'ing is apart of that, running boons at 100% uptime is just killing finding players who want to play any role.

 

At this point, your basically just saying I need to delete my character and play the game how someone else thinks I should, when it was never promoted for that. I will repeat, if the game REQUIRES these 2 boons, something is wrong with the boon system. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:52 AM, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Decided to create my own team.

 

Guess what happened? "You don't have alac, i'm out".

 

People EXPECT these boons. As I said before, they are MANDATORY. Just creating your own group does nothing to influence people otherwise.

 

The fact that this forum defends these 2 boons is proof enough just how mandatory they are. 

And why exactly couldn't you get adps in the group? (btw I've been in groups without stacked boons before, so... nope, not really mandatory, but also kind of weird to "not use it because noooo!")

16 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

I will repeat, if the game REQUIRES these 2 boons, something is wrong with the boon system. 

It doesn't, same as it doesn't require having a healer (that you so desperately want to play), but there are things that are clearly going to make the gameplay more efficient by using them. Why aren't you complaining about dps builds having to build for dps? Why aren't you complaining about healers needing to heal? Are you equally flustered by dodge existing in the game, because it's basically mandatory to use it? It's almost as if you took a puzzle, said you like the puzzles and then took one of the pieces and say "NOPE, this one's bad because I need it for a full picture, but the other ones are k".

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

23 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Indeed. As I said, I've never tried it but saw the build quite a while ago. This video Heal Alac Ventari Vindicator Demonstration shows a variation and it certainly provides heal and alacrity as can be seen from the boons.

Outdated, I think:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation/history

• Serene Rejuvenation: Increased outgoing healing bonus from 15% to 20% in PvE and from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW. This trait no longer causes Natural Harmony to grant alacrity. Instead, it causes Legendary Centaur Stance skills to apply the following boons:

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Outdated, I think:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation/history

• Serene Rejuvenation: Increased outgoing healing bonus from 15% to 20% in PvE and from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW. This trait no longer causes Natural Harmony to grant alacrity. Instead, it causes Legendary Centaur Stance skills to apply the following boons:

Thanks. Tried it earlier and couldn't figure out why can't get Alac. Only checked Natural Harmony and not Serene Rejuvenation.

[Obtena.7952]

On 12/10/2022 at 3:25 PM, Nightstorm.8024 said:

 

Disagree. Anet knows that these 2 boons are REQUIRED for any team and they decided to give Vind no alac or swift, so they are effectively deciding it shouldn't be in the meta. 

HOLD ON ... NEITHER of these boons are required. The vast majority of team content in this game can be done without them. 

Here is some relevant truth to your situation: not everything can be meta and Anet doesn't 'engineer' what is meta either. If you are trying to join groups that want meta, and you aren't playing meta, you are trolling those groups. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[khawki.4205]

7 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

I don't care if people lose dps. Boo-Hoo, I lost big number. If Big number is all this game is about, just give everyone a auto-kill 1 shot button and call it a day. Game is suppose to be about skill and while dps'ing is apart of that, running boons at 100% uptime is just killing finding players who want to play any role. 

I think here may be your problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want fun for yourself, but you don't really care for fun for others.

People like pushing themselves to the limit and seeing if they can get higher numbers. People like competing with others in group on terms of DPS. And lastly, people train thier builds with Alac and Quickness so they lose rhythm when they don't have them and it may be frustrating, when you can't play the way you practiced for hours.

As I said in previous post, I agree with you that these boons are the problem. But I cannot agree with your point of view, as I believe you're taking it the wrong way.

I don't mean to attack you personally here, just your opinion. Sorry if I made you sound like villain here, maybe I'm reading it with wrong context.

Edited December 12, 2022 by khawki.4205

[Mell.4873]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:00 AM, Doggie.3184 said:

Where's Thief Quickness support?

It should be in the Deadeye grandmaster Fire for Effect. It already provides Might and Fury to nearby team mates so adding Quickness wouldn't be that hard. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[A Hamster.2580]

Removing quickness and alac would significantly slow down the combat. GW2's combat is what makes it stand out apart from all other MMO's. I would just instantly quit and play FF14 until they revert it.

 

I don't think you understand the implications behind asking for the removal of quickness and alac. Anet would have to reconsider every trait, skills, runes, sigils, food, utilities, enemies, npcs, encounter mechanics that have quick/alac in them. They would have to rethink many of the spec elites. GW2 as we know it will be a different game. All this so that you can play your heal vindicator in end game content.

 

I think you should just play heal herald for quickness or heal renegade for alac. They already gave you options. Don't be stubborn and ask for the impossible.

Edited December 12, 2022 by A Hamster.2580

[Mell.4873]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:00 AM, Nightstorm.8024 said:

 

I'm a Healer Vind, which does a lot of spike heals, but because there is no quick or alacrity, no one wants me. 

I think your problem is in reality healing does not really keep people alive it's boons.

For example any low health class won't survive long with just healing but Vigor, Protection, Resistance that will keep them alive. 

Same principle behind Quickness and Alacrity. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[The Boz.2038]

The "cost" of adding quickness or alacrity to a heal build (that has access to it) is pretty much nil. The cost of adding those to a DPS build is 25-33% DPS. You are free to come to your own conclusion on which is the better deal there.

[Nightstorm.8024]

I will say again, boons are suppose to be complimentary and not mandatory. 

 

Those suggesting I just delete character because I won't jump on the boon bandwagon will be ignored. I won't tell them to go delete their character because they won't play toxic meta builds. The game is suppose to allow every class to play, but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

 

If you guys can't see how this is toxic then I can't help you. But your locking people out of content so some dps can feel "bigger number". 

 

My solution to the problem is simple, remove quickness and alac and apply them to all characters naturally. Everyone has swift and alac since their so dam important apparently that people would rage quit if they didn't get them. 

 

All you guys are doing is literally making my point for me, that these boons are so vital that you would tell me the following:

Play something else
Don't do this content because its not made for you
Make your own group
I would quit if this game didn't give me quick and alac

If that doesn't scream mandatory, I don't know what does.

 

The fact is, people have gotten so use to it, that they believe there is no other way to play, but it in itself has become its own rigid niche. And I don't know why 1 dude would quit for Final Fantasy 14. I played it for 2 years and its highly more toxic than GW2 when it comes to end-game raiding. Personally Gw2 has gotten 1 thing right, which is everyone can help and everyone wants someone to help, expect for strikes, raids, and fractals because people think the only way to win is to have swiftness or alac, thus mandatory.

 

Don't really care if dps wanna see "big number" for themselves. These boons have created a toxic environment and locked down squads to very niche rolls. 

[Venport.3925]

12 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

To be honest, alacrity and quickness are issue and probably game would be better off without them.

But I highly doubt it is possible to remove them at this point, after so many years...

Personally I think Alacrity is a lot more of a problem than quickness, or else they would have let things like thief initiative regenerate quicker with it.

[The Boz.2038]

9 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

I will say again, boons are suppose to be complimentary and not mandatory. 

They are complimentary. 
And the players make anything complimentary *mandatory*, unless a *better alternative* exists.

11 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Those suggesting I just delete character because I won't jump on the boon bandwagon will be ignored

Literally none people said this.

11 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

The game is suppose to allow every class to play, but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

Not true. Not even by a long shot, lol.

12 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

But your locking people out of content so some dps can feel "bigger number". 

12 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Don't really care if dps wanna see "big number" for themselves.

The big number isn't good because it makes DPS player feel good, the "big number" is good because it makes the fight shorter, it makes the  boss do less harm to players, it makes fights less risky and, ultimately, easier. Good boon uptime leads to big number. If you can't help make number go big, rethink what exactly you bring to team.

15 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

The fact is, people have gotten so use to it, that they believe there is no other way to play,

Multiple posters here have already told you that this is not true; you can play without the boons. There is just no reason to do this. You can play a boon-less healer, but there is no reason to do this. 

Try and think of it as "being good". A DPS that is not good at making number big can be seen as healer that is not good at making boon exist. Would you accept DPS players into your team that join and say "I don't make big numbers. Big numbers are toxic. I play how I want"? 

[Kodama.6453]

15 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

The game is suppose to allow every class to play, but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

These 2 are pretty far from mandatory.

They are strong meta builds, but there are several other healing specs which can also provide one of these 2 boons. Druid, tempest, scrapper, renegade, herald....

All the content can easily get cleared with any of these healing specs. Basically your only complaint is that you can't play vindicator as a healer in high end content because people want these 2 boons. Your class has 2 other specs, each having access to one of these boons and being a capable healer.

Sorry, but this is just you being entitled. If you just stubbornly want to use that one single elite spec and have no flexibility to change that elite trait line, then don't get pissed at others for "excluding you from content". Make your own group in which you specify that anyone can use the build they want then.

[khawki.4205]

48 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

All you guys are doing is literally making my point for me, that these boons are so vital that you would tell me the following:

Play something else
Don't do this content because its not made for you
Make your own group
I would quit if this game didn't give me quick and alac

Why are you mad about these responses?

1st tells you that you should maybe try out different things that fit the meta rn.

2nd tells you that your play style may fit better somewhere else

As for making your own group... You misunderstood. It's not about leading, but about communication. You can join meta group and politely ask if they are willing to try out different approach. You can also do your own group and communicate how you want to approach things.

Back when druid was almost only healer in raids I played Herald as main healer. I made my own group, didn't expect 250li, said what I bring to the table and what I need others to bring to compansate in other places. I didn't give people false expectations of meta speedclearing.

People who wanted meta didn't join or left when they saw this isn't what they want. But I found other people that wanted to have less optimal raid and we had fun!

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

I will say again, boons are suppose to be complimentary and not mandatory. 

 

Those suggesting I just delete character because I won't jump on the boon bandwagon will be ignored. I won't tell them to go delete their character because they won't play toxic meta builds. The game is suppose to allow every class to play, but its gotten so niche that 2 classes out of 27 (ham and hfb) are the mandatory classes. 

 

If you guys can't see how this is toxic then I can't help you. But your locking people out of content so some dps can feel "bigger number". 

 

My solution to the problem is simple, remove quickness and alac and apply them to all characters naturally. Everyone has swift and alac since their so dam important apparently that people would rage quit if they didn't get them. 

 

All you guys are doing is literally making my point for me, that these boons are so vital that you would tell me the following:

Play something else
Don't do this content because its not made for you
Make your own group
I would quit if this game didn't give me quick and alac

If that doesn't scream mandatory, I don't know what does.

 

The fact is, people have gotten so use to it, that they believe there is no other way to play, but it in itself has become its own rigid niche. And I don't know why 1 dude would quit for Final Fantasy 14. I played it for 2 years and its highly more toxic than GW2 when it comes to end-game raiding. Personally Gw2 has gotten 1 thing right, which is everyone can help and everyone wants someone to help, expect for strikes, raids, and fractals because people think the only way to win is to have swiftness or alac, thus mandatory.

 

Don't really care if dps wanna see "big number" for themselves. These boons have created a toxic environment and locked down squads to very niche rolls. 

You miss the point of Boons as a healer. 

Boons keep people alive not your HPS. People have self heals what they need is low cooldowns and faster animations. That is all provided by Alacrity and Quickness.

 

A good Healer, just heals.

A great Healer provides boons. 

The best Healer puts down well timed resurrection.

 

My Mesmer Healer which is off-meta can provide all of the above and more. The rotation is a nightmare but I can do it and maintain one of the two main Boons. You are also playing Revenant which has Herald and Renegade both can provide the Boon you need for Raids so you have no excuse. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

These 2 are pretty far from mandatory.

They are strong meta builds, but there are several other healing specs which can also provide one of these 2 boons. Druid, tempest, scrapper, renegade, herald....

All the content can easily get cleared with any of these healing specs. Basically your only complaint is that you can't play vindicator as a healer in high end content because people want these 2 boons. Your class has 2 other specs, each having access to one of these boons and being a capable healer.

Sorry, but this is just you being entitled. If you just stubbornly want to use that one single elite spec and have no flexibility to change that elite trait line, then don't get pissed at others for "excluding you from content". Make your own group in which you specify that anyone can use the build they want then.

Honestly Revenant is a Supports wet dream.

Herald is an amazing boon quickness support, being the only class to boost boon duration. 

Renegade has access to almost permanent Alacrity Protection and Resolution without much effort. Not to mention the group buffs for damage/lifesteal. 

Vindicator is a pure healing spec a bit like Druid which for some content is amazing (WvW). It's unique buff is increase healing and Regeneration. Keeping this and bringing it out for some Raid fights could be an awesome strategy. 

[Nightstorm.8024]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

They are complimentary. 
And the players make anything complimentary *mandatory*, unless a *better alternative* exists.

 

 

Nice double think. Its complimentary, but its also mandatory.  What? Its 1 or the other. Players have made it mandatory, so thanks for agreeing I guess. 

 

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

These 2 are pretty far from mandatory.

They are strong meta builds, but there are several other healing specs which can also provide one of these 2 boons. Druid, tempest, scrapper, renegade, herald....

All the content can easily get cleared with any of these healing specs. Basically your only complaint is that you can't play vindicator as a healer in high end content because people want these 2 boons. Your class has 2 other specs, each having access to one of these boons and being a capable healer.

Sorry, but this is just you being entitled. If you just stubbornly want to use that one single elite spec and have no flexibility to change that elite trait line, then don't get pissed at others for "excluding you from content". Make your own group in which you specify that anyone can use the build they want then.

 

Highlighted bold, this is just "delete your character and play what we want you to play" nonsense. Your literally telling me to play a playstyle I don't want to play so people can have to 2 stupid boons. I have played Herald. I'm sick of it. I have played Renegade. I'm sick of it. 

 

I want to play Heal Vind, but because it doesn't provide 2 stupid boons, the community is toxic because it just wants its 2 stupid boons. I don't know why this is so hard for people to see or understand. If your running a spec that has these boons, sure you'll be accepted, but all other classes get the boot. 

 

There is people that join my own groups only to instantly leave if they don't see Heal Brand because they assume that is the only and best healing class for the game. 

 

Your not going to convince me that out of 27 classes, only a handful should be played for end-game content because of 2 stupid boons. If they are that much wanted and needed, they are overpowered, period. 

 

3 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

Why are you mad about these responses?

1st tells you that you should maybe try out different things that fit the meta rn.

2nd tells you that your play style may fit better somewhere else

As for making your own group... You misunderstood. It's not about leading, but about communication. You can join meta group and politely ask if they are willing to try out different approach. You can also do your own group and communicate how you want to approach things.

Back when druid was almost only healer in raids I played Herald as main healer. I made my own group, didn't expect 250li, said what I bring to the table and what I need others to bring to compansate in other places. I didn't give people false expectations of meta speedclearing.

People who wanted meta didn't join or left when they saw this isn't what they want. But I found other people that wanted to have less optimal raid and we had fun!

 

Your right about your own group, but I can't tell you how many times I make my own group only for 50% of them to ask, who is bringing quick? Who is bringing Alac? Which is fine for people to ask, but a lot of them, once they hear from me that its a free-for-all.. you can play what you want, we don't care about quick or alac, quite a handful of them leave. Or if you don't clear on first try, quit instantly. 

 

When the conversation that dominates groups is 2 stupid boons, those 2 boons need to be reworked. 

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

You miss the point of Boons as a healer. 

Boons keep people alive not your HPS. People have self heals what they need is low cooldowns and faster animations. That is all provided by Alacrity and Quickness.

 

A good Healer, just heals.

A great Healer provides boons. 

The best Healer puts down well timed resurrection.

 

My Mesmer Healer which is off-meta can provide all of the above and more. The rotation is a nightmare but I can do it and maintain one of the two main Boons. You are also playing Revenant which has Herald and Renegade both can provide the Boon you need for Raids so you have no excuse. 

 

Heal Vind provides boons, just not ALAC or Swift. If I go to this group and tell them I provide protection and resolution, they will just LOL and kick me. So this is not a valid point. Its not about just boons, its about Alac and Swift. 

 

They are overpowered, they control groups, and its made the community toxic and revolve around them. You don't see "protection" groups or "regen" groups. Nope, just these 2 and always these 2. There is probably 10+ classes that can heal in this game, but the one they mostly call out for is HAM. Do you know why? For a single boon. 

 

Again, I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. This isn't me crying out that I can't play heal vind, its that if I don't provide 1 of 2 of these boons, then YOUR OUT. People don't want you. Which makes these boons ridiculous and need to be seriously reworked and I will harp on that until I die. People have just accepted their fate of swift/alac boons and they don't fight it, they just switch to a class they probably don't want to play just to get the content done so they can get their little legend insight. 

[The Boz.2038]

People wanting you to be good/useful/have a role is not toxic, lol.

[Nightstorm.8024]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

People wanting you to be good/useful/have a role is not toxic, lol.

 

Everyone has a role because everyone has a class. This is a stupid nonsensical point. 

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Nightstorm.8024 said:

Highlighted bold, this is just "delete your character and play what we want you to play" nonsense. Your literally telling me to play a playstyle I don't want to play so people can have to 2 stupid boons. I have played Herald. I'm sick of it. I have played Renegade. I'm sick of it. 

Alright, cool. Can I join you the next time you do end game content with my core turreteer build? I also would like to play it, but people keep telling me i shouldn't just because I want to play it as dps and deal not high enough numbers for them (kitten toxic guys telling me my 7k dps is not high enough 😞 )