Untamed and movement speed

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

I will add coin…

Untamed may not the fastest by design but it can be pretty fast…. 

SB Eternal Bond and double bird is the fastest one hands down…. but Untamed can be as fast as Druid or SB with only one or no bird ….

something that no one mention (or I didn’t see at least) is the 1200 hammer movement (double hammer 5 leaps, 600+600)  plus hammer ambush skill that give you “super speed” effect. (See Vallun Untamed Roaming build on Guildjen.com … on the comments they explain how to do the leaps) 
 

that Added to the low CD teleport with target with Super Speed and the core stuff GS or Sword or perma swiftness (super speed with speed rune) make you a quite mobile and fast class able to scape or chase target’s nicely. 

 

How do you do double hammer leap without wielding 2 hammers though? 

Meanwhile in Druid land for instance, you can take Natural Stride + Staff + Sword / Wh (or GS) and fly across the world with a ton of stealth to boot.  

There just really needs to be a trait that increases movement speed--Untamed is the only ranger spec that doesn't have one and has to rely on core or some crazy gymnastics.  

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

How do you do double hammer leap without wielding 2 hammers though?

It's a bug. When changing unleashed mode mid cast and immediately pressing hammer5 again, it activates twice.

But even then, going double melee on another spec (or staff + melee on druid) offers still more mobility.

Also cds on slb beastmode skills are shared, so using double bird (or double anything) does not offer maximum mobility, however, there are more mobility pets than birds, so going 2x mobility pet is still a thing.

Edited December 22, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

There just really needs to be a trait that increases movement speed--Untamed is the only ranger spec that doesn't have one and has to rely on core or some crazy gymnastics.  

There is one. Ferocious symbiosis.

[ApaWanka.2698]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It's a bug. When changing unleashed mode mid cast and immediately pressing hammer5 again, it activates twice.

But even then, going double melee on another spec (or staff + melee on druid) offers still more mobility.

Also cds on slb beastmode skills are shared, so using double bird (or double anything) does not offer maximum mobility, however, there are more mobility pets than birds, so going 2x mobility pet is still a thing.

yeah, that is how you do the double leap! 👍🏼
 

….  when I’ve said double bird I was meaning double movement pet… you are right, my bad 🙂

So as racer, SB Eternal Bond, double movement pet with Sword / GS is the fastest one…. But that is good for racing, not that good for battle. 

So Druid that put staff 3 (20sCD) and Untamed hammer (20sCD) with 1200 mobility (let’s count both have GS for example so we can ignore second weapon)

Druid have 3s SuperSpeed on CA10sICD but Untamed have the Hammer Ambush with 15s ICD and 2s SuperSpeed effect plus Unnatural Transversal 900 distance (20s /40s CD) and FS or FF traits.

So Druid will only potentially be faster (on perfect conditions race) if you do the pet swap trick at the end of Staff 3 to reduce the CD and abuse that while FS FF and UT are not a thing for untamed.
 

However in battle Untamed may be faster because you can use FS trait adding base movement or FF reducing your CDs and UT skill with reduced CD for burst movement. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by ApaWanka.2698

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

yeah, that is how you do the double leap! 👍🏼
 

….  when I’ve said double bird I was meaning double movement pet… you are right, my bad 🙂

So as racer, SB Eternal Bond, double movement pet with Sword / GS is the fastest one…. But that is good for racing, not that good for battle. 

So Druid that put staff 3 (20sCD) and Untamed hammer (20sCD) with 1200 mobility (let’s count both have GS for example so we can ignore second weapon)

Druid have 3s SuperSpeed on CA10sICD but Untamed have the Hammer Ambush with 15s ICD and 2s SuperSpeed effect plus Unnatural Transversal 900 distance (20s /40s CD) and FS or FF traits.

So Druid will only potentially be faster (on perfect conditions race) if you do the pet swap trick at the end of Staff 3 to reduce the CD and abuse that while FS FF and UT are not a thing for untamed.
 

However in battle Untamed may be faster because you can use FS trait adding base movement or FF reducing your CDs and UT skill with reduced CD for burst movement. 

 

 

Another thing to note is that the Investment for Soulbeast (even Druid a little) is very high to be that mobile. While Untamed can just swap two utilities in and one trait.

Another thing people neglect to mention is most PvP/WvW builds want Smokescale on Soulbeast for stealth so less mobility. In WvW Jacaranda is also invaluable. Even with the theoretically higher speed Soulbeast almost no one plays it that way.

I have only really seen it in sPvP but even then, if people just hold points, they can't really do anything especially without Smoke Cloud.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

There is one. Ferocious symbiosis.

 

It's 15% and conditional but I guess that's another post for your post count...

[Kodama.6453]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It's 15% and conditional but I guess that's another post for your post count...

It's 25% movement speed. And yeah, it is conditional. Does every ranger elite spec need to have unconditional movement speed buffs? I personally don't think so.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

47 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's 25% movement speed. And yeah, it is conditional. Does every ranger elite spec need to have unconditional movement speed buffs? I personally don't think so.

Considering how bad most of our core traitlines are yeah we should have stuff like this to make up for it in our especs.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

50 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's 25% movement speed. And yeah, it is conditional. Does every ranger elite spec need to have unconditional movement speed buffs? I personally don't think so.

Of course you don't:  Mecha Legs - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Also, it's 25% max movement speed on FS, but might as well be 15% as that's all you can normally keep uptime on for things that move due to how much the pet misses. 

You also have 0% uptime when starting from spawn in modes like sPvP and WvW; but I think you can gather why this is an issue.  

Edited December 22, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[SleepyBat.9034]

31 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Of course you don't:  Mecha Legs - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

If you're that desperate for a move speed buff then run a rune or signet that gives it.

Edited December 22, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

If you're that desperate for a move speed buff then run a rune or signet that gives it.

Sure, because even the signets are totally comparable:

Signet of the Hunt - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Shift Signet - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

There's some saying about throwing stones in jade houses...

Edited December 23, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[SleepyBat.9034]

43 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Sure, because even the signets are totally comparable:

Signet of the Hunt - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Shift Signet - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

There's some saying about throwing stones in jade houses...

And that's somehow relevant to the conversation?

Last I checked, despite the crippling weakness of not having a permanent uptime +25% movement speed buff, Untamed is quite strong in the competitive game modes while Mechanist is garbage.

Edited December 23, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

And that's somehow relevant to the conversation?

Last I checked, despite the crippling weakness of not having a permanent uptime +25% movement speed buff, Untamed is quite strong in the competitive game modes while Mechanist is garbage.

 

It's relevant as you brought signets into this.  

I just assume that's trolling at this point because ranger signets haven't been relevant or good since release.  

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Sure, because even the signets are totally comparable:

Signet of the Hunt - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Shift Signet - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

There's some saying about throwing stones in jade houses...

Isn't it a better idea to request a buff to signet of the hunt instead of demanding that every elite spec gives up one of the trait slots for an unconditional 25% speed buff, tho? Seems to me like that makes more sense.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

52 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Isn't it a better idea to request a buff to signet of the hunt instead of demanding that every elite spec gives up one of the trait slots for an unconditional 25% speed buff, tho? Seems to me like that makes more sense.

 

I don't personally think it's healthy to load up utilities like Shift Signet.  By forcing you to take a trait you have to give up something else, if you take a utility, you are just adding to something else.  As in, utilities should be side-grades and slot in based on how you play, whereas traits should change how you play.

We also have the initial conundrum of things like Mechanical Legs being a core trait; I wouldn't be opposed if they made a core trait increase movement speed for all classes though.  

As an aside, the game is just too fast now, and roles have given way to homogeny causing untold numbers of problems.  As in, FWIW I don't think Ranger should be teleporting, nor Guardian, etc.  I think teleporting is a thief thing because of the squishy nature of it; but this is obviously role-based thinking.

Anyway, things like runes should always be tertiary (behind traits and utilities), I don't agree with them in a discussion like this, as they are not a band-aid fix, they are to supplement everything else.  

Edited December 23, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I don't personally think it's healthy to load up utilities like Shift Signet.  By forcing you to take a trait you have to give up something else, if you take a utility, you are just adding to something else.  As in, utilities should be side-grades and slot in based on how you play, whereas traits should change how you play.

Why always thinking in extremes? No one was asking to make signet of the hunt as overloaded as shift signet. But if you say yourself that signets haven't been viable in ages, then they should be subject for buffs (which doesn't mean we have to overdo it here).

Signet of the hunt is a core feature available for all elite specs which can get used to give unconditional movement speed. So this would fill the need for that movement speed that is requested in this thread.

I don't make that distinction between "utilities are sidegreades and traits define how you play". Many utility skills can just be as gameplay defining as traits. The signet, in the end, provides the same thing like the trait mecha legs you quoted so many times now: unconditional movement speed which is available for the entire class, if you are willing to take it.

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why always thinking in extremes? No one was asking to make signet of the hunt as overloaded as shift signet. But if you say yourself that signets haven't been viable in ages, then they should be subject for buffs (which doesn't mean we have to overdo it here).

Signet of the hunt is a core feature available for all elite specs which can get used to give unconditional movement speed. So this would fill the need for that movement speed that is requested in this thread.

I don't make that distinction between "utilities are sidegreades and traits define how you play". Many utility skills can just be as gameplay defining as traits. The signet, in the end, provides the same thing like the trait mecha legs you quoted so many times now: unconditional movement speed which is available for the entire class, if you are willing to take it.

They really just need to add both a heal skill Signet and ultimate skill Signet. 

Signets have a great synergy with its trait to reset Opening Strike. Most of the passive effects are garbage but the active effects are pretty nice. 

Rather than turning one of the other Signets into the Shift Signet. Turn the ultimate skill into it, leave the teleport out but a boon copy passive effect and then maybe the Signet of Inspiration effect from Mesmer for the active effect. 

 

Signet Ultimate Skill

Passive effect: Boons you gain are copied to your Pet.

Active effect: Extends the duration of all boons on yourself and your Pet. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Gotejjeken.1267]

14 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why always thinking in extremes? No one was asking to make signet of the hunt as overloaded as shift signet. But if you say yourself that signets haven't been viable in ages, then they should be subject for buffs (which doesn't mean we have to overdo it here).

Signet of the hunt is a core feature available for all elite specs which can get used to give unconditional movement speed. So this would fill the need for that movement speed that is requested in this thread.

I don't make that distinction between "utilities are sidegreades and traits define how you play". Many utility skills can just be as gameplay defining as traits. The signet, in the end, provides the same thing like the trait mecha legs you quoted so many times now: unconditional movement speed which is available for the entire class, if you are willing to take it.

How does this even work? 

As a theoretical, let's make Signet of the Hunt mirror Mecha Legs to give the unconditional speed, and also the duration decreases to buff it (since it's outdated). 

This doesn't work...why you ask?

Natural Stride - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Now, as a Druid you have doubled up the same functionality--exactly my point of why traits and utilities should not be interchanged.  If you say remove/rework Natural Stride, then we have a balance problem as now I can take signet of the hunt, get the old trait functionality, and take something like Celestial Shadow.  I've essentially doubled up on traits via a utility, the problem I think should be avoided at all costs.

Which is why my tldr; in this entire discussion is just make move speed functionality into a trait, across all classes and specs.  If they want to reduce work then they can just rework a core trait to work like Mecha Legs, or they can continue splitting it up like they do now, in which case it'd make most sense to have movment speed on Ferocious Symbiosis as outlined prior.  

Edited December 24, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Kodama.6453]

29 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

How does this even work? 

As a theoretical, let's make Signet of the Hunt mirror Mecha Legs to give the unconditional speed, and also the duration decreases to buff it (since it's outdated). 

This doesn't work...why you ask?

Natural Stride - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Now, as a Druid you have doubled up the same functionality--exactly my point of why traits and utilities should not be interchanged.  If you say remove/rework Natural Stride, then we have a balance problem as now I can take signet of the hunt, get the old trait functionality, and take something like Celestial Shadow.  I've essentially doubled up on traits via a utility, the problem I think should be avoided at all costs.

Which is why my tldr; in this entire discussion is just make move speed functionality into a trait, across all classes and specs.  If they want to reduce work then they can just rework a core trait to work like Mecha Legs, or they can continue splitting it up like they do now, in which case it'd make most sense to have movment speed on Ferocious Symbiosis as outlined prior.  

You can buff signet of the hunt without making it a copy of natural stride. This isn't a matter of black and white.

Mecha legs and shift signet both exist as passive movement speed buffs on mechanist, yet it isn't any problem at all. Nothing forbids anet to buff signet of the hunt to be a viable option for movement speed on ranger and it can still coexist with traits that also increase movement speed.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You can buff signet of the hunt without making it a copy of natural stride. This isn't a matter of black and white.

Mecha legs and shift signet both exist as passive movement speed buffs on mechanist, yet it isn't any problem at all. Nothing forbids anet to buff signet of the hunt to be a viable option for movement speed on ranger and it can still coexist with traits that also increase movement speed.

 

It's a huge problem, particularly shift signet.  We're using engineer as an example of how not to balance here.

Essentially, that's the point, you buff signet of the hunt it becomes bloated garbage like shift signet.

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It's a huge problem, particularly shift signet.  We're using engineer as an example of how not to balance here.

Essentially, that's the point, you buff signet of the hunt it becomes bloated garbage like shift signet.

You don't understand what I am saying.

The fact that shift signet and mecha legs are both movement speed increases is not a problem. Shift signet is a problem by itself, just because it is bloated.

If you think there is nothing between bloated and unviable (like you say yourself signet of the hunt to be), then I really don't know what to tell you. You can buff signet of the hunt without making it a bloated mess. For example, the active effect which gives unblockable could get replaced with a more desirable effect, without having to load 3 different effects onto it.

So again: stop always thinking in extremes. Apparently, for you there exists just "overloaded" and "bad" and you won't accept that there could be a place between these two.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

27 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You don't understand what I am saying.

The fact that shift signet and mecha legs are both movement speed increases is not a problem. Shift signet is a problem by itself, just because it is bloated.

If you think there is nothing between bloated and unviable (like you say yourself signet of the hunt to be), then I really don't know what to tell you. You can buff signet of the hunt without making it a bloated mess. For example, the active effect which gives unblockable could get replaced with a more desirable effect, without having to load 3 different effects onto it.

So again: stop always thinking in extremes. Apparently, for you there exists just "overloaded" and "bad" and you won't accept that there could be a place between these two.

You start to buff Signet of the Hunt in almost any way without giving it extremely tiny (small enough to not be worth bothering) improvements, it starts to get bloated. That's basically what's going to end up happening. It's not that there's no intermediary, it's that you can't buff it without going to the other extreme.

[Kodama.6453]

20 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

You start to buff Signet of the Hunt in almost any way without giving it extremely tiny (small enough to not be worth bothering) improvements, it starts to get bloated. That's basically what's going to end up happening. It's not that there's no intermediary, it's that you can't buff it without going to the other extreme.

If that would truly be the case then the signet would be run way more often, because then the skill would already be considered good.

But ok, keep believing that credo of "if anet gives us any buffs, the skill is automatically bloated".

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If that would truly be the case then the signet would be run way more often, because then the skill would already be considered good.

But ok, keep believing that credo of "if anet gives us any buffs, the skill is automatically bloated".

You actively cannot buff signet of the hunt without overdoing it just based on everything the skill provides. 25% move speed buff passive, 10 unblockable attacks active for 6s.

Edited December 24, 2022 by RainbowTurtle.3542

[Zaret.1450]

can someone recap wich is the problem? i mean i saw some things about signets and stuff, but i dont get it i think?

I mean for me ranger has decen mobility, not the best but its decent, as for signets i do think we could use a rework, and use the oportunity for several things.