What is Anet's data so far on the WvW meta?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I like those ideas. I've mentioned in the past how I was assuming untamed would be the ranger equivalent of spellbreaker, which it was not and spellbreaker boon removal was nerfed.

The idea for specter sounds good, hadn't thought of that myself, would give thief a viable/desirable large scale build.

Mallyx boon removal is a tad to high in WvW for my liking (going along the lines of reducing boon removal across all classes instead of increasing it). It could use a reduction of 5 or even 10 points back to 25/20 energy in WvW.

My personal assumption is: they've been treating WvW balance similar to PvE balance when it comes to boons. Give everyone all boons to reduce performance fluctuation by assuring boons will be there. Which works for PvE, since enemies seldom boonrip but is a total disaster for spvp or wvw. That or they just haven't come around to reworking their design ideas for WvW after multiple years (some of which we know where not active development).

Hense why I am doing a small test right now and checking the discussion in this thread and asking in all subsequent profession subs about these changes and well, so far, people seem to like the idea of having specs compete with the roles that so far have been with no rivals.

I can only hope what is being said here and talked about in the subs will be seen (doubt it). 

As long as the specs remain true to the flow and playstyle of their core class, they can still become potent alternatives that feel unique and fresh. 

Playing Untamed doesn't feel like playing Spellbreaker and playing Specter doesn't feel like playing Scourge.

Whether or not Anet will ever finalize their plans for WvW or keep making empty promises and keep pumping that terrible expac content, (for competetive) is up to them. 

So far I am not happy with how the meta has shifted a year after the expansion's release.

[Xenesis.6389]

51 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Which is precisely why said AoEs should exist for a class that plays ranged at core (aka Weaver/Catalyst) instead of a Melee that also somehow does good at range (Rev and yes, even Berserker, tho Berserker has the raw DPS role so you can be a bit more lenient towards it's dmg). Basically, keep ranged assets on maily melee specs at a mediocre level and make ranged assets on ranged classes strong with constant dmg, while melee excels at bursting melee.

Aka, Berserker should be very good with Arc Divider and basically the most powerful cleaver in zerging, while Weaver should do massive Meteor shower damage, instead of say, Scorching Earth being above meteor shower and FGS doing better DPS than arc divider for example.

I agree, but we're so far into elite specs now everything is already mixed up, unfortunately, it's too far gone to have any type of focus into areas. Nothing can be done about that now.

 

51 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Precisely why we need more specs in the boonrip area. So far I propose for Specter in the Scourge competition, Untamed in the Spellbreaker competition and Mallyx Rev in a more utility/support boonrip role like Chrono (but def not quite). Virtuoso also a potent boonrip spec if made for it, Catalyst needs it's boon identity refined or something else entirely for largescale, unless if boons are cut a lot and the role of DPS/Boon support becomes more needed in groups for the boons (instead of a firebrand and a tempest farting them).

They choose this balance, so it's up to them ultimately. 

I don't disagree, but good luck with that, it's obvious they hate boon rips, they've been constantly nerfing them, even bottom of the barrel sigil of absorption. I can't wait for their boon vs rip review, I'm sure it'll end up nerfing necros and mesmers again, laughable the amount of stuff some of the boon spam classes get away with.

[God.2708]

I mean. What is getting missed here beyond @subversiontwo.7501's comments and a few stray shots in others is ultimately a discussion of what classes are capable of is largely miniscule in comparison to what context those classes are placed in.

If you were to tell me I need to defend a t3 stonemist castle from a single organized enemy server and I get to pick whatever 50 classes I want, my set up will look drastically different from if you told me I need to capture multiple t0 towers from an unorganized enemy. The big 50 'Stab/Heal/DPS/DPS/Misc' evolved to answer the question of: "What the hell are we doing tonight?" because the answer to that is: "Well it could be anything". It's a flexible composition that has a jack-of-all trades answer to most any situation that occurs in WvW. It's not the BEST answer to most situations, but if you find a situation that isn't favorable because another group is better situated for that particular one, it usually means you can fight them in a different context and come out on top.

So people rage at how their class isn't useful in this catch-all composition because they lose a lot in context X, not realizing that their class could demolish that composition if they properly set up in context Y and had a means to require the enemy comp to enter said context Y. But that requires actual changes to the MODE of WvW and why things like alliances, rewards, and the like are important. Buffing or nerfing 'META' classes isn't going to actually diversify the META. It's just going to make it change clothes.

Edit: Not that there is anything wrong with a change of clothes. It's nice to have a new style every so often. But it's important to recognize a dressed up pig is still a pig.

Edited January 8, 2023 by God.2708

[Grand Marshal.4098]

26 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

I mean. What is getting missed here beyond @subversiontwo.7501's comments and a few stray shots in others is ultimately a discussion of what classes are capable of is largely miniscule in comparison to what context those classes are placed in.

I approach this as the classic open field 40ish player groups clashing in combat.

PPT is def far less requiring of a "meta" and any other instance (gvg, smallscale, havoc) usually have their miniature environments. 

Unless if people have another scenario in mind.

[God.2708]

52 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I approach this as the classic open field 40ish player groups clashing in combat.

PPT is def far less requiring of a "meta" and any other instance (gvg, smallscale, havoc) usually have their miniature environments. 

Unless if people have another scenario in mind.

I can tell you Anet generally is looking at perfectly even mid-sized (15-25) fights for their 'diversity' and class balance approaches because its the most reproducible, most recorded, and eliminates the most external variables. Then they probably do a pass over of giant scale and roaming to see if there's anything dreadfully outlying.

But your reply is ultimately the crux of the problem with most of these discussions. You've shoehorned a specific scenario onto the table and then ask 'Why are these things that are specifically good at this scenario still good at this scenario?' That and after re-reading your initial post I'm left with the feeling that things aren't changing fast enough, because if you looked at WvW vids from two years ago and WvW vids today the group composition is fairly drastically altered with the only consistency being FB and scourge to a lesser extent. To which I'd have to ask just how often do you want things to change? Keeping in mind that for new players changing builds is often a costly endeavor.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

8 hours ago, God.2708 said:

I can tell you Anet generally is looking at perfectly even mid-sized (15-25) fights for their 'diversity' and class balance approaches because its the most reproducible, most recorded, and eliminates the most external variables. Then they probably do a pass over of giant scale and roaming to see if there's anything dreadfully outlying.

But your reply is ultimately the crux of the problem with most of these discussions. You've shoehorned a specific scenario onto the table and then ask 'Why are these things that are specifically good at this scenario still good at this scenario?' That and after re-reading your initial post I'm left with the feeling that things aren't changing fast enough, because if you looked at WvW vids from two years ago and WvW vids today the group composition is fairly drastically altered with the only consistency being FB and scourge to a lesser extent. To which I'd have to ask just how often do you want things to change? Keeping in mind that for new players changing builds is often a costly endeavor.

Rev/Scourge/FB and Scrapper were the stapple for years, till Tempest surfaced to replace that role.

World v World is mainly about large-scale. Roaming is not something Anet has shown focus on, GvG is restricted directly to EotM GvG, Havoc is non-existent.

Zerging is the main thing Anet focuses on and we have seen them talk about it directly in most/if not all their streams and posts.

I personally do not wish for a change in class balance as in: remove entirely firebrand, replace scourge entirely etc.

I wish for the previous holders to have competition in their roles so a new player can precisely jump into the fights with a spec they already have gear/experience with from pvp/pve.

A specter player rn has no real spot in a zerg that's focused on direct combat.

Should Specter becomes a viable contender for Scourge's role, suddely when the comm asks for a boonrip class, the thief player can simply join.

It's also a beyond commander issue. The majority of WvW is not composed of hardcore fighter guilds that wish to re-invent the wheel by playing obscure builds due to the team composition being researched and players being professional at their classes and party communication.

No, majority of WvW is the playerbase that will flock to the accessible/potent/well-performing roles, those usually most close to their main class. Those that wish to stay for the long run, usually multi-class to begin with, so it's beyond money cost at that point and frankly gear is dirty cheap to get right now, all you need is a reward track for dps gear and warlord armor can provide the minstrel stats for supports.

The "meta" needs a change at least every 6 months, by introducing something new into the comp, not removing things or entirely replacing them. After 6 months of EoD specs, I literally see nothing being played. Staff Catalyst for the double meteor shower and either form of vindicator (potent as a dmg dealer and a healer, since people are bored of playing Herald). Same reason most DH players know that DH is the best option, but will still swap to Willbender sometimes. A semi-different role of extended DPS and most importantly, something relatively new as a playstyle after 7 years of DH.

I had no real issues gearing in WvW for zergs in the past 4 years and I am broke asf cause I always had to buy stuff to test my roaming builds, before getting heavy legendary or generally choosing specific armor stats to always have on my characters. Investment is required to be able to play to some degree, but still, almost everyone has a berserker/marauder gear set. So that would pretty much mean a Specter/Holo/Virtuoso/Untamed would simply need to get a zerg build, do some tests, learn the zerging nuances and boom, they are in for the long run.

It's easy as is it rn, people simply don't show the interest, because the choice of classes is boring and restricted, the meta is dominated by boon spam and numbers and there is little incentive for new players to stick to WvW.

[mistsim.2748]

Scrapper got nuked? Time to reinstall baby.

[Odin.6487]

Anet just needs to adopt seasonal metas. Just nerf and buff kitten and keep it rotating. 

 

that’s how wow does it and look at their pvp scene compared to ours. 

 

the problem is anet moves at a kittening snails pace. if it’s not the gem store they don’t give a kitten. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:58 PM, mistsim.2748 said:

Scrapper got nuked? Time to reinstall baby.

DPS is viable, as a cleanser, few groups run it, usually smaller sized ones for the Superspeed as a support (it still holds out) but a good player will make more out of Tempest rn.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 hours ago, Odin.6487 said:

Anet just needs to adopt seasonal metas. Just nerf and buff kitten and keep it rotating. 

 

that’s how wow does it and look at their pvp scene compared to ours. 

 

the problem is anet moves at a kittening snails pace. if it’s not the gem store they don’t give a kitten. 

That would require a group of people to be hired and only focus on WvW balance...

!LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Odin.6487 said:

Anet just needs to adopt seasonal metas. Just nerf and buff kitten and keep it rotating. 

 

that’s how wow does it and look at their pvp scene compared to ours. 

 

the problem is anet moves at a kittening snails pace. if it’s not the gem store they don’t give a kitten. 

 

Sorry lost to many fellow players when builds people took time to build were nuked. For those of us in Leggo gear its not a big deal. To those that are in Ascended and its not just a quick flip over, no that's not a good plan and wouldn't advise that direction.

[Odin.6487]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Sorry lost to many fellow players when builds people took time to build were nuked. For those of us in Leggo gear its not a big deal. To those that are in Ascended and its not just a quick flip over, no that's not a good plan and wouldn't advise that direction.

You already hinted at another huge problem. 
gear gate keeps fluidity.

 

can’t have your cake and eat it too lol.

[Odin.6487]

4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

That would require a group of people to be hired and only focus on WvW balance...

!LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Lol I know it’s so much to ask for /s 🙂

[Biermeister.4678]

On 1/2/2023 at 12:04 AM, KeyOrion.9506 said:

Maybe Anet needs to install Boon Sickness.  This permaboon, extended boon, sharing boon is starting to become total garbage and it's getting tiring.  Either your overpowered with group boons, and even stripping the boons doesn't help, because the group is synergetic now and pulsing every single boon to every single party member.  It's become...bad.  Very bad to play now.

They nerfed all the boon strips you almost need a full party of boon strip classes. 

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Biermeister.4678 said:

They nerfed all the boon strips you almost need a full party of boon strip classes. 

Yeah but none of the groups would want that, they want full on tank mode so they can braindead melee smash into each other like crash test dummies.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

On 1/17/2023 at 4:39 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah but none of the groups would want that, they want full on tank mode so they can braindead melee smash into each other like crash test dummies.

Funny how this translates to roaming nowadays too.

Literally everyone on Cele auto-attacks.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:24 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Funny how this translates to roaming nowadays too.

Literally everyone on Cele auto-attacks.

This is their vision for WvW gameplay.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This is their vision for WvW gameplay.

Splendid!!!!! /s