Idea to decouple Warrior from having to use CC to land damage

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Warrior needs hard CC to land it's damage skills. Its rather irrefutable at this point and is why the Feb2020 patch that removed damage from hard CCs crippled warrior so badly.

We got a Defense rework in Oct 2022, which has been an amazing QOL, but hard CC is still required to land damage. This leads to warriors of all types using heavy CCs to lock down targets, and said targets losing agency, which apparently is a no-no in games post 2020 /shrug. While I have a smidgeon of sympathy for them, that does not change the fact that the way that warrior is built requires the use of numerous hard CCs to land our damage skills due to their telegraphs.

So, I have a proposal. One that is self balancing even. A new trait. This trait can replace Dual Wielding or Heightened Focus as both fit the theme I am about to propose and both are useless.

Trait: Quickened Strikes
Your attacks and skills activate 20% faster but your crowd control effects* are 20% shorter in duration. This attack speed boost stacks with all other sources. *Note: hard CCs only.

Mechanic Change: Berserk Mode
The attack speed boost granted by this skill now stacks with all other sources.

Attack speed increases may not stack beyond a net 50% increase. Quickness says it is a 50% increase but is a net increase of 33%. The proposed Quickened Strikes with Quickness would bring a player to 45% total reduction in cast times, and with Berserk hit the cap of 50%. Why this cap? Because the original quickness was a 100% faster activation, which is a 50% reduction in cast time. Simply put, the game engine can support it.

Since this would be decreasing the telegraphs and exceed the cast time reduction in a why that other professions can't it is self balanced by a penalty to Hard CC durations. I can see arguments from others that it should be more due to stacking with quickness, but if that is the case then that should be backed into quickness itself profession wide.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Beyond the contents of the post itself and just answering the title. You already have what you're looking for. Its called revenant.

 

Warrior is pretty much chained to CC spam at this point. Regardless of how unfun it is for gameplay, because they basically made the better idea for warrior in revenant. The idea of divorcing warrior from CC has been tried so far. Its called bladesworn. Its quite terrible from concept to execution.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

41 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Beyond the contents of the post itself and just answering the title. You already have what you're looking for. Its called revenant.

That is not an answer.

41 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Warrior is pretty much chained to CC spam at this point. Regardless of how unfun it is for gameplay, because they basically made the better idea for warrior in revenant. The idea of divorcing warrior from CC has been tried so far. Its called bladesworn. Its quite terrible from concept to execution.

It is. You are right, they made better warriors than warrior with both Rev and Holo. BSW turned all of the bad parts of warrior into features, not necessarily decoupling warrior from CC.

This change would be a 1 for 1 trade in cast time and CC duration. We have the CCs because of telegraphed big attacks needing them. Reduce the telegraphs and the CC durations accordingly and you then decouple warrior from hard CC spam to deal it's damage, other players regain their precious agency, and warrior gets to play like the rest of the professions. Win-win for everyone.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910
typo, blame the brandy.

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is not an answer.

It is. You are right, they made better warriors than warrior with both Rev and Holo. BSW turned all of the bad parts of warrior into features, not necessarily decoupling warrior from CC.

This change would be a 1 for 1 trade in cast time and CC duration. We have the CCs because of telegraphed big attacks needing them. Reduce the telegraphs and the CC durations accordingly and you then decouple warrior from hard CC spam to deal it's damage, other players regain their precious agency, and warrior gets to play like the rest of the professions. Win-win for everyone.

That is an answer. Stop that, you know better than that.

That leads to the homogenization of classes which is something the company doesn't want to do otherwise they'd do away with the class system entirely. Even holosmith and revenant do not play the same way. Holosmith is dangerously close to reaper but they still have substantial differences. I agree in so far that warrior's main setup is bad for both it and the opposing players as CC chains in themselves are not conductive for fun and engaging gameplay. But, that's what they're sticking with and many people who want otherwise have already moved on to revenant. Take a moment to think why many dueling servers were almost exclusively spellbreakers and heralds and thr weird notion that most of them played both classes almost exclusively as well.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

That is an answer. Stop that, you know better than that.

No, it isn't an answer.  If your response to proposals on QOL changes to a class is to go play another class, then you may as well stop.

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

That leads to the homogenization of classes which is something the company doesn't want to do otherwise they'd do away with the class system entirely. Even holosmith and revenant do not play the same way. Holosmith is dangerously close to reaper but they still have substantial differences. I agree in so far that warrior's main setup is bad for both it and the opposing players as CC chains in themselves are not conductive for fun and engaging gameplay. But, that's what they're sticking with and many people who want otherwise have already moved on to revenant. Take a moment to think why many dueling servers were almost exclusively spellbreakers and heralds and thr weird notion that most of them played both classes almost exclusively as well.

This isn't homogenization though, nor would it lead to homogenization. It is providing a balanced way to alleviate a bad design choice on the warrior gameplay. All the CCs will still be there, they would still get used, but would not be as oppressive to fight against and not as needed on the warrior's part to land their own damage.

[Fueki.4753]

Increasing the range of Warrior's melee abilities might also help relieve it from it's CC dependency. If Warrior can more reliably hit enemies, it might not have to lock enemies down as much.

Increasing Warrior's melee attack range to 170 and the range of all of Warrior's Leaps to 600 might be a good step.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

39 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Increasing the range of Warrior's melee abilities might also help relieve it from it's CC dependency. If Warrior can more reliably hit enemies, it might not have to lock enemies down as much.

Increasing Warrior's melee attack range to 170 and the range of all of Warrior's Leaps to 600 might be a good step.

They did that to Bull's Charge and you see the QQ it gets on the PvP forum.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Fueki.4753]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They did that to Bull's Charge and you see the QQ it gets on the PvP forum.

But people whine already when they merely see a Warrior anywhere, so that shouldn't be taken it consideration.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But people whine already when they merely see a Warrior anywhere, so that shouldn't be taken it consideration.

How dare warriors think they are equals!

Seriously though. All Melee AA's have 130 range, but for the other professions their melee weapons tend to hit beyond that either in whole or in part.

Arcing Slice, Hundred Blades, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe, Fierce Blow, Staggering Blow, Backbreaker, Final Thrust, Flurry, Skull Crack, and Pulverize all should hit out to 150 range.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

13 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But people whine already when they merely see a Warrior anywhere, so that shouldn't be taken it consideration.

I had rev players complain to me that Backbreaker into Fierce Blow is OP lmfaooo

Edited January 4, 2023 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I had rev players complain to me that Backbreaker into Fierce Blow is OP lmfaooo

All this unconditional hate against Warrior is just silly.

Warrior isn't the worst profession in regards to CC/movement impairment. Mesmer, Necromancer and Ranger still share that seat in my experience.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[SleepyBat.9034]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Increasing the range of Warrior's melee abilities might also help relieve it from it's CC dependency. If Warrior can more reliably hit enemies, it might not have to lock enemies down as much.

Increasing Warrior's melee attack range to 170 and the range of all of Warrior's Leaps to 600 might be a good step.

I'd be down for this change. I'd also like better swiftness access, warrior feels so slow without it.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

29 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'd be down for this change. I'd also like better swiftness access, warrior feels so slow without it.

Well the one trait that could reliably be picked for that is already present in Trashsworn.

Aka, as I said a few months back regarding some key changes I proposed better swiftness alternatives within Discipline to compete with Burst Mastery which has a more offensive role to is. Lemme just get the link.

 

EDIT: found em

 

That thread and the linked comment within.

TLDR: 1) Frenzy becomes the warrior Dolyak Stance (soft condi immunity), 2)Aggressive Onlslaught no speed boost, instead under quickness can't be chilled (or slowed, or weakened can be anything), 3) Heightened Focus replaced with Swiftness on weapon swap and remove debilitating condi when you apply swiftness on yourself (defensive swiftness application to compete with Burst Mastery and enhance Brawler's and Warrior's Sprint), 4) If Fast Hands baseline, then weaponswap grants quickness as a minor trait.
 

The idea for Superspeed on Burst Mastery has gone around, but idk, for now Berserker activatinbg Quick/SS on an interval with Primals will work well enough, while Featherfoot gaining reso can work too.

Sidenote: Berserker stance should get condi dmg immunity for the seconds it persists with resi. 

This should make warrior faster without too much swiftness around (in-combat due to cripples/immobs, slow and chill).

Edited January 4, 2023 by Grand Marshal.4098

[SleepyBat.9034]

7 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Well the one trait that could reliably be picked for that is already present in Trashsworn.

Aka, as I said a few months back regarding some key changes I proposed better swiftness alternatives within Discipline to compete with Burst Mastery which has a more offensive role to is. Lemme just get the link.

I'd rather have alternatives outside of Discipline, It'd be nice to have swiftness on Brave Stride or something.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'd rather have alternatives outside of Discipline, It'd be nice to have swiftness on Brave Stride or something.

Ah yeah def, the idea has been discussed on how Brave Stride is bad and needs the swiftness of movement skills (which sadly for us exists on Bladesworn) and therefore won't happen. 

On top of the fact that you need to forego Peak Performance. A no-no really. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, it isn't an answer.  If your response to proposals on QOL changes to a class is to go play another class, then you may as well stop.

This isn't homogenization though, nor would it lead to homogenization. It is providing a balanced way to alleviate a bad design choice on the warrior gameplay. All the CCs will still be there, they would still get used, but would not be as oppressive to fight against and not as needed on the warrior's part to land their own damage.

Read carefully, no wasn't the answer; no is not in the entire response. The answer was what is being desired already exists, just on another class. If they wanted warrior to rely less on CC and have more straightforward defenses, heals, and support I'd tell them to play guardian. The act of not liking an entity does not change what that entity is.

The second part of your response is starting a positive feedback loop that I don't want to take part in. Read carefully.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Read carefully, no wasn't the answer; no is not in the entire response. The answer was what is being desired already exists, just on another class. If they wanted warrior to rely less on CC and have more straightforward defenses, heals, and support I'd tell them to play guardian. The act of not liking an entity does not change what that entity is.

The second part of your response is starting a positive feedback loop that I don't want to take part in. Read carefully.

If I were asking to play with marks on core warrior, or symbols on core warrior your response would be applicable. It is not applicable to a QOL suggestion.

[Infusion.7149]

This seems overly complicated to implement on Arenanet's part. The culprit is mainly spellbreaker complaints as dazes and stuns inflict immob as well as remove boons. Arenanet could implement a clause that quickness doesn't apply to spellbreaker daze/stun. This is if Aggressive Onslaught and Heightened Focus even take hold.

I don't see why knockdown/launch/pull/knockbacks would need to be nerfed in any fashion if they largely do not do any damage whatsoever in competitive modes. That would be a severe nerf to maces in particular.

As far as Berserker goes, they could probably add ferocity if you are affected by quickness and have the Berserk mode attack speed boost.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[KryTiKaL.3125]

16 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

That is an answer. Stop that, you know better than that.

That leads to the homogenization of classes which is something the company doesn't want to do otherwise they'd do away with the class system entirely. Even holosmith and revenant do not play the same way. Holosmith is dangerously close to reaper but they still have substantial differences. I agree in so far that warrior's main setup is bad for both it and the opposing players as CC chains in themselves are not conductive for fun and engaging gameplay. But, that's what they're sticking with and many people who want otherwise have already moved on to revenant. Take a moment to think why many dueling servers were almost exclusively spellbreakers and heralds and thr weird notion that most of them played both classes almost exclusively as well.

Hate to break it to you, but ANet has already been homogenizing classes. Why do you think they have progressively stripped away the Unique Buffs that classes used to offer with certain Utility Skills? Like Ranger Spirits and Warrior Banners? Those all got swapped out for boons.

The homogenization isn't coming from class mechanics, its coming from pushing this heavy gameplay reliance on Boon Generation and Boon Uptime. Basically all class mechanics also facilitate this as well; i.e they proc some kind of Boon or Boons. This is the biggest reason why Warrior seems to somehow be the most difficult thing for ANet to get a handle on because, for some reason, they just decided to leave it out when it came to reliable self Boon Generaration and Boon Uptime. Warrior and Thief both.

However in Competitive modes, like what is being used as the context here, Warrior does not really have anything that offsets this as opposed to Thief which has Stealth (arguably the best "defensive" mechanic in the game aside from invulns) and god tier mobility that genuinely no class, still, has ever come close to matching. Now the point isn't that Thief is too strong or I'm complaining about Thief gameplay/mechanics, I'm just using it as a way to explain how you don't see Thief suffer as much performance wise as Warrior does in Competitive Modes because of these things they have access to. Imagine if Thief had all of its stealth and mobility and just gave itself constant self generated 25 might, 10+ stacks of Stability and Quickness and Protection at will like some classes do as is?

Also the idea that "Oh if you want this then just play on a different class. Simple." This doesn't work that way. People want to play a Warrior, but they want to play a Warrior that isn't worse at doing what it does than other classes that are literally doing it better because they have access to certain tools. Like the opening of my post asserted, they have already homogenized things...with Boons being so vitally important to gameplay and Warrior simply does not have anywhere near the same level of reliability in that area without playing an exclusively support oriented build with Banners.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

This seems overly complicated to implement on Arenanet's part. The culprit is mainly spellbreaker complaints as dazes and stuns inflict immob as well as remove boons. Arenanet could implement a clause that quickness doesn't apply to spellbreaker daze/stun. This is if Aggressive Onslaught and Heightened Focus even take hold.

I don't see why knockdown/launch/pull/knockbacks would need to be nerfed in any fashion if they largely do not do any damage whatsoever in competitive modes. That would be a severe nerf to maces in particular.

As far as Berserker goes, they could probably add ferocity if you are affected by quickness and have the Berserk mode attack speed boost.

We've had traits that extended said durations on mace, and we've had better quickness in the past. This is all things that Anet can accomplish.

I can accept just increasing the effectiveness of quickness without a tradeoff though.

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We've had traits that extended said durations on mace, and we've had better quickness in the past. This is all things that Anet can accomplish.

I can accept just increasing the effectiveness of quickness without a tradeoff though.

My point is it is gone now if you mean Sundering Mace.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sundering_Mace

I don't understand the incessant complaining by people that don't play multiple classes that warrior is OP or something of that nature. The meta build is actually melee unless you run a longbow or rifle meme and quickness is not a large factor. I cannot imagine what these people would do when Seismic Leap or Throw Boulder still did damage on Rampage 😅. No matter what is said by the complainers the only ranged warrior thing that hits actually hard without a huge cast time or travel time is probably Gunflame. I don't feel pre-nerfing everything in anticipation of eventualities is the way to go, if you understand what I am saying. People constantly assume that Arenanet will change entire traitlines and such when usually whatever is the outlier is gutted (or what they think is the outlier) and then left that way.

Pretty much all the build sites have removed Frenzy from utilities if that is what you mean by quickness access.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

My point is it is gone now if you mean Sundering Mace.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sundering_Mace

And then the merged Mace into MH. My point is that they have that tech laying around and can turn the bonus into a negative  to create an inherent drawback to a new trait.

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't understand the incessant complaining by people that don't play multiple classes that warrior is OP or something of that nature. The meta build is actually melee unless you run a longbow or rifle meme and quickness is not a large factor. I cannot imagine what these people would do when Seismic Leap or Throw Boulder still did damage on Rampage 😅. No matter what is said by the complainers the only ranged warrior thing that hits actually hard without a huge cast time or travel time is probably Gunflame. I don't feel pre-nerfing everything in anticipation of eventualities is the way to go, if you understand what I am saying. People constantly assume that Arenanet will change entire traitlines and such when usually whatever is the outlier is gutted (or what they think is the outlier) and then left that way.

Pretty much all the build sites have removed Frenzy from utilities if that is what you mean by quickness access.

I don't get it either. Those people just QQd about Hard CC until the damage was gutted, and they are still QQing over it without acknowledging that the way warrior is built that it needs those CCs land damage. My statement about quickness was in relation to the trait I proposed as it would stack with quickness and allow warrior to have something other than base stats that it excels at in active game play, increased attack speed, but with the drawback that CCs last a shorter duration.

Its a fair tradeoff, get faster attacks than other professions can get, while giving up the need to use CCs to do it.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And then the merged Mace into MH. My point is that they have that tech laying around and can turn the bonus into a negative  to create an inherent drawback to a new trait.

I don't get it either. Those people just QQd about Hard CC until the damage was gutted, and they are still QQing over it without acknowledging that the way warrior is built that it needs those CCs land damage. My statement about quickness was in relation to the trait I proposed as it would stack with quickness and allow warrior to have something other than base stats that it excels at in active game play, increased attack speed, but with the drawback that CCs last a shorter duration.

Its a fair tradeoff, get faster attacks than other professions can get, while giving up the need to use CCs to do it.

My major concern is on every warrior except spellbreaker your shorter CC means that quickness is useless when you have to have a way to keep the target in place for say 100 Blades, Flurry, or Arc Divider. Skills such as Bull's Charge , Backbreaker, or Shield Bash would not lock down people long enough unless you essentially chain your whole skillbar just to land DPS, while also doing nothing other than CC. With a 100 Blades buff maybe? I could see Full Counter being a shorter daze if No Escape is used or something. I don't think touching core warrior is a good idea to achieve damage "without relying on CC" if Arenanet insists on keeping 0.01 coefficients and the reliance solely on cripple with most warrior weapons (axe, sword, greatsword, hammer, rifle, torch, gunsaber).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

My major concern is on every warrior except spellbreaker your shorter CC means that quickness is useless when you have to have a way to keep the target in place for say 100 Blades, Flurry, or Arc Divider. Skills such as Bull's Charge , Backbreaker, or Shield Bash would not lock down people long enough unless you essentially chain your whole skillbar just to land DPS, while also doing nothing other than CC. With a 100 Blades buff maybe? I could see Full Counter being a shorter daze if No Escape is used or something. I don't think touching core warrior is a good idea to achieve damage "without relying on CC" if Arenanet insists on keeping 0.01 coefficients and the reliance solely on cripple with most warrior weapons (axe, sword, greatsword, hammer, rifle, torch, gunsaber).

That trait with quickness would have 100B last 2.275 seconds and would fit within the new duration of Backbreaker or Bull's Charge or Headbutt. Flurry comes with immob and would be contained within that duration. Arc Divider would come out quick enough that you wouldn't need to lock the target, ditto for most of the axe and dagger skills.

[Infusion.7149]

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That trait with quickness would have 100B last 2.275 seconds and would fit within the new duration of Backbreaker or Bull's Charge or Headbutt. Flurry comes with immob and would be contained within that duration. Arc Divider would come out quick enough that you wouldn't need to lock the target, ditto for most of the axe and dagger skills.

So you would need to have quickness and the new trait just to land 100 Blades? Doesn't seem that great to me. The cooldown on those CCs is essentially double that of 100 Blades (3.5s cast before any speed up), Flurry (2.5s), or Arc Divider (1.75s). Also I don't think Arenanet is keen on letting quickness to stack with attack speed traits in general. Your premise is the original quickness was 50% reduction in cast time, when clearly they (Arenanet) want everything to be telegraphed.

I suspect the main reason hammer is popular now is the added damage on burst that breaks the "no damage on CC" rule, which is more or less the main change in competitive modes. All this is why it's probably best to target any change to the root of the so-called problem which would only be essentially Full Counter (unblockable CC with 300 "range") combined with No Escape (immob on CC).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Infusion.7149
grammar