Math to back up why Maguuma should go it alone next relink.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

9 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Not clear what timeframe you are referring to exactly.

It's just player attrition.  It's not that it's no longer worth those players time.  It's that they don't feel any need to play 8 hours a day anymore.

 

 

The decline started with the launch of HoT, but didn't really accelerate until 6-12 months after the launch of PoF, once every even mediocre static raid time guild starting running firebrands and friends.  A lot of people try to blame the loss of community on server pairing, and guilds transferring.  But the real root cause was that players who didn't join and play primarily with guild groups went from having some chance at success to zero chance at success when facing even mediocre guild groups.  And (most) players who join (most) groups like that become all about that group, and don't care at all about the server they're on, except in so far as it can get them good fights.

 

For me personally the absolute last gasp of having a chance against guild groups was about the time the warclaw stomp was removed.  Before it was removed I would often choose to play the weaker side in any matchup I was in, if I had an alt there.  But without it I had no chance, and it was a pointless waste of my time to even try to help the underdogs. 

 

That across the board damage nerf was also a turning point, but at least it made small scale better, so it wasn't all bad news.

 

And new players still arrive almost every day, most of them quickly figure out they have to join a guild group to have a good time, and then that's all they do.

 

But over there on Maguuma, they still play like it's 2015, only better, they don't even need pugmanders 90% of the time.   And for purposes of taking and holding territory that's way way way better than tired old guild groups who just gave up on seeing alliances any time soon, yet again.

 

To save wvw, making the cliff between organized and less organized groups go away, is way way more important than the matchup imbalances.  At least, that's my opinion.

 

 

[Chaba.5410]

3 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Because those calls are usually to add a couple more people, not a limit on how many to show up, it doesn't happen when you call in for larger groups. Players do not limit who should show up, nor do they have control over who would show up. You can call in for 2 more roamers for that camp to handle 2 roamers, but that doesn't somehow prevent 5 random roamers from showing up.

When a mag scout reports 10 at a tower and 40 roamers show up, well those 10 should pay better attention to the server they're playing against, and if they've been scouted if they're trying to be sneaky. Not really much different than playing against BG or FA for that matter.

You were earlier implying that there's something wrong with asking questions of scouts about numbers.  So which is it?  It's ok to ask for numbers before responding to a scout's call or not and we should just all pile in 40 roamers for 10 at a tower?

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

This is IMO an unrelated issue. I've mentioned it many times in my server's team chat but if you're joining WvW for the rewards you're in for a bad time. If you aren't having fun playing a game... why are you playing...???

 

Kinda similar I guess but I have no fun being completely unable to frikken DO anything with the current setup. Blah blah blah maguuma is more skilled my butt. Hence my initial post proposing a solution.

 

That's more or less the reason I'm still doing this forums stuff. It's quite amusing to me.

There's no open world aspect to WvW and no down time activities (for a game mode where profession and population imbalance creates a lot of downtime) and no exploration and not much wandering. But the game mode dynamic is always going to simmer the playerbase down into one server attracting the super serious with a lot of time to field a perpetual or consistent force. That's going to create a lot of down time for people on all sides. If WvW were more interesting or engaging aside from the perfect storm that can materialize large fights that last more than a minute, I think people in general would be more willing to stress test.

[kash.9213]

Weird page glitch double post.

Edited January 13, 2023 by kash.9213

[Sleepwalker.1398]

1 hour ago, KevinEvo.7061 said:

We are locked out of PvE content because we can't get GOBs, or do dailies. Last week I literally had to camp flip for 17 hours for pips to finish Conflux. Do you think that's fun? It's unbelievable this situation is allowed to happen. Some of us don't like 1v1, 5v5 or roaming; that's what the PvP game mode is for. Some people like large scale battles.

 

Now can you imagine the same thing from a MAG PVE player's view?

They come into WvW, 'hey, how can i get GoB?"

Reply..."Please Noob walk the yaks as there is no content besides the little they get at enemy spawn."

[Xenesis.6389]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You were earlier implying that there's something wrong with asking questions of scouts about numbers.

Huh? where did I imply that? I never said it was wrong to ask about numbers, I was complaining about scouts not providing them in the first place and having to ask them over and over until you get a straight digit answer.....

🤷‍♂️

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

To save wvw, making the cliff between organized and less organized groups go away, is way way more important than the matchup imbalances.  At least, that's my opinion.

And for me that's where WR comes in.  It redistributes "seasonally" not only numbers, but the unorganized and organized too.  The playstyles get mixed together again.

[exeggcuter.8394]

Alright alright I think I'm getting a clearer picture from these mag folks. Question: would you want to do a 5v5 pvp game with 2 players and 3 afk alts on your side? And 5 players on the other side?

Entirely hypothetical question, mind you.

Edited January 13, 2023 by exeggcuter.8394
stuff

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Alright alright I think I'm getting a clearer picture from these mag folks. Question: would you want to do a 5v5 pvp game with 2 players and 3 afk alts on your side? And 5 players on the other side?

The obviously answer is you would leave the match and requeue into a different one, so for wvw that means log on an alt or transfer servers. 🍿

[exeggcuter.8394]

Just now, Xenesis.6389 said:

The obviously answer is you would leave the match and requeue into a different one, so for wvw that means log on an alt or transfer servers. 🍿

Hey! We've got a winner here folks. Someone summed up the problem in one sentance.

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Hey! We've got a winner here folks. Someone summed up the problem in one sentance.

Glad we found the answer for the pve players, let's wrap up this thread to the cornerstone trashcan.

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Huh? where did I imply that? I never said it was wrong to ask about numbers, I was complaining about scouts not providing them in the first place and having to ask them over and over until you get a straight digit answer.....

🤷‍♂️

We were talking about Mag not asking 20 questions of scouts in the context of why Mag appears more skilled/better than other servers.  To be fair, you didn't probably intend to imply that.  That's the way I read it because of the context.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[exeggcuter.8394]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Glad we found the answer for the pve players, let's wrap up this thread to the cornerstone trashcan.

And I'm glad the truth that skill, mechanics balance, and other such nonsense was admitted as irrelevant. Finally a voice of wise reason.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

And for me that's where WR comes in.  It redistributes "seasonally" not only numbers, but the unorganized and organized too.  The playstyles get mixed together again.

 I don't see how WR creates any room for pugmanding to return, or even the creation of new mag-alikes.  It might slightly incentivize guilds to pug mand a bit more. 

 

But for the most part at any given time only 1-2 servers will have the most organized group on, and the other 1-2 servers will just be wheat for them to scythe.   NA prime will still produce some decent 3 ways though, on a map or 2.

 

The root cause is with power creep in the fight mechanics not the matchups.

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Alright alright I think I'm getting a clearer picture from these mag folks. Question: would you want to do a 5v5 pvp game with 2 players and 3 afk alts on your side? And 5 players on the other side?

Entirely hypothetical question, mind you.

While Xen gave the best answer, I just want to add that in a true Mag-style 5v5 pvp game you'd sh*t-talk your opponents into quitting so your team ends up with 5 players and the other team ends up with 2 players and 3 afks.

[exeggcuter.8394]

The /salute emote is the most powerful one in the game. Shame that by the time I win a duel in WvW 5 more mags show up before I can do it.

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

We were talking about Mag not asking 20 questions of scouts in the context of why Mag appears more skilled/better than other servers.  To be fair, you didn't probably intend to imply that.  That's the way I read it.

I said they "probably" don't ask those questions, as in they'll respond regardless because that's their mentality, especially if oj's are showing. I haven't been on mag in quite some time so I don't know what their scouting calls are like these days.

I wasn't talking about their skill or being better, I was simply trying to say there's no control on how many would show up to a call, it's the same on every single other server.

[exeggcuter.8394]

Just now, Xenesis.6389 said:

I said they "probably" don't ask those questions, as in they'll respond regardless because that's their mentality, especially if oj's are showing. I haven't been on mag in quite some time so I don't know what their scouting calls are like these days.

I wasn't talking about their skill or being better, I was simply trying to say there's no control on how many would show up to a call, it's the same on every single other server.

The pedantry has FINALLY started! Took 11 pages but it's finally here. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! SAVE YOUR SANITY!

[Chaba.5410]

10 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

 I don't see how WR creates any room for pugmanding to return, or even the creation of new mag-alikes.  It might slightly incentivize guilds to pug mand a bit more.

What kind of pugmanding though are we talking about here?  The guild drivers that tag up in some spare time and usually bring along with them their guild base of support and end up getting big followings or the guy who doesn't associate with any guild and tags up anyway and builds up a following over time?

One of the things over the years I found that actually creates room for pugmanding is when the popular tags stop tagging up so much and let new tags build up their following.  I'm not going to name servers, but there's always the story of a server's popular public tag who then quits (player attrition) and all their followers stop playing and are loathe to follow any new tags.  The experience gap ends up being too big and these new tags haven't yet proven themselves.  Instead it's better if the old pugmanders ween their followers off them and allow space for new tags to gain more experience.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

11 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What kind of pugmanding though are we talking about here? 

 

I'm talking the type where 1 guy who knows where to throw siege, but has ZERO guildies running meta builds, goes about trying to make some moves on a T3.  That worked up until a bit after PoF, it doesn't work at all anymore, unless the opposite team's coverage is so low that you're just fighting gates and walls.

 

Or the type where 1 guy who knows to hit the tail, and is providing some boon strips or whatever, tags up to defend a keep.  Again that just doesn't work at all anymore unless you outnumber the boon blob 2:1 or more, or you're on maguuma.

 

And yes it used to be that a big problem with new pug manders was them building a following, but usually at least some people would follow, because they were providing some action.  But now-a-days, if you play with organize guild groups, you KNOW, with near 100% certainty, that the pugmander is going to be a waste of your time, because even if they do have a clue, they're still going to lose.

 

 

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

26 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

But now-a-days, if you play with organize guild groups, you KNOW, with near 100% certainty, that the pugmander is going to be a waste of your time, because even if they do have a clue, they're still going to lose.

Pretty much this, any general pugmander will have trouble against most organized guilds, and there's really no point in feeding them because that's the quickest way to lose people. I think the gap between pug and organized groups have widened because of required meta builds for the boon ball. To the point that pugmanders probably feel there's no real need to fight those groups unless they have a stack of firebrands and support with them, and really the successful guildless pugmanders are the ones who have access to these with their usual followers, but how many of those are actually around?

Regardless of player attrition over the years, there's still a good amount of players around, there's people who can tag up, and they do to ppt and defend mostly, but there just isn't really any point to fighting an organized guild 25+ unless they're certain guilds, which I won't name and shame but they might as well be pugs too. And also maybe a lot of those guild players who run those important builds in their own guild raids, don't want it on their off guild hours either.

It's already tough enough trying to build a following while not getting run over by every guild, they need to try and build groups with rag tags. I got a laugh one time listening to Indo wishing there were more pugmanders in the game, meanwhile he's running over everything with his boon ball group, pretending he's on their level as a pugmander when he runs with practically the same core of players, like a guild, every night.

Yeah you're not going to encourage more pugmanders to tag up that way.... 🤭 The pugmanders I see around, I try to help them with my cc/strip chrono, but I know when the beep hits the fan, it's get out of the way cause they don't stand a chance, it's either they don't have the support, or they're standing around like deer in headlights. 🤭

Edited January 13, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[ArchonWing.9480]

6 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

You mean team spirit that disappears against Maguuma, right?

Absolutely. Why would people decide to PPT to t1, knowing exactly who'll they'll face, and then abandon their people immediately?  Tell this story to any non-WvWer and they'd either laugh their kitten off or shrug.

That's just proof many have never truly played WvW-- they're just in it a bit more than the average player.

I mean, WvWers are not known for their long term planning, but what can Anet do if teams can't get their kitten together, and simply be on the same page?

Edited January 13, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

 

I'm talking the type where 1 guy who knows where to throw siege, but has ZERO guildies running meta builds, goes about trying to make some moves on a T3.  That worked up until a bit after PoF, it doesn't work at all anymore, unless the opposite team's coverage is so low that you're just fighting gates and walls.

 

Or the type where 1 guy who knows to hit the tail, and is providing some boon strips or whatever, tags up to defend a keep.  Again that just doesn't work at all anymore unless you outnumber the boon blob 2:1 or more, or you're on maguuma.

 

And yes it used to be that a big problem with new pug manders was them building a following, but usually at least some people would follow, because they were providing some action.  But now-a-days, if you play with organize guild groups, you KNOW, with near 100% certainty, that the pugmander is going to be a waste of your time, because even if they do have a clue, they're still going to lose.

 

I mostly agree with that and maybe it's server to server, but there are still pugmanders who are actually a safer bet for someone like me to float around and cover because they're more elastic and have a body language that can move the team around before the other side tries to execute what they've been plotting in the last minute. That's also sometimes a better bet to dismantle a composition because they're not trying to fight as if they had a legit comp themselves. 

Map responses can be quick though and if you don't have another squad to peel with then ya, might as well call it. The fight is going to land on a structure point or someplace where time and is working against you. Again, WvW being more of a match mode instead of an open world mode compounds the population and balance problems. 

[Nikola.3841]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

lol. I am not sure I can blame being mental on Warhammer. But the Choppa in me does miss the options to Bypass. For those that didn't play Warhammer the Melee class had an option to invade an enemy structure while the walls were up. You would pop in a backdoor and then need to make your way up stairs to all the ranged that would be defending the top of the fortifications. Normally that meant you were quite outnumbered and had no Tank or Heal support. If the other side didn't leave troops to block, you would could cause some serious mayhem and give your side more help in breaking down the door to get into the structure by wading into their defenders and cutting down the range while they shot down on your side.

Sending you a WAAAGH! from this old Choppa. -Grimjester <OE> Order's End

 

In DAOC certain classes could do this---risky, because you could not bring healers:

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Nikola.3841

[neven.3785]

Its actually pretty frustrating to deal with the incompetent scouting on mag.  Back in the day many of us were the skeleton defense players when we weren't running with our fight guilds, accurate concise call outs allowed us to milk a couple extra hours of nonstop content in the PST.  Most of these people burnt out from it probably 5ish years ago when the players started refusing to leave EBG.

Now its a group of 15 defenders on home BL hunkering down in Southern Towers and making team chat call outs for an enemy zerg or 25 on a queued map.   Unfortunately they are calling out 5-10 people instead.  Its like its a combination of not using simple nameplates, counting pets/clones/mechs and an inability to count on your own players in squad to even see if you can deal with it.

As a guild group, we're constantly having to ignore call outs now because of how much of our playtime was being wasted chasing ghosts by these bad callouts.  Unfortunately though, maguuma often has either this now, or absolutely nothing for active scouting.  There is no middle ground if EBG has actual people to kill at the enemy spawns (or the keep to SMC circlejerk).  Any actual decent scouting is normally from our link.

Edited January 13, 2023 by neven.3785