13 January, 2023--What Is Not Being Used

[Noko Anon.9154]

After trolling over numerous build repositories for multiple game modes (sans Open World), here is what I have gathered that is not being used in any popular, be it meta or otherwise, build. Granted, there may be a handful of people using these things, but this is a collection of the collective.

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In PvE (cumulative of fractals, strikes, and raids):

Weapons: Dagger/Pistol, Main-Hand Pistol, Sword/Dagger, Scepter/Pistol

Skills:

• Healing: Withdraw / Skelk Venom / Malicious Restoration
• Deceptions: Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area
• Signets: Inflitrator's, Shadows
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Roll for Initiative
• Venoms: Ice Drake
• Physical: Bandit's Defense, Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers
• Cantrips: Binding Shadow, Shadow Flare, Shadow Gust
• Wells: Silence, Tears
• Elite: Dagger Storm, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld, Shadowfall

Traits (1 being the top-most trait choice of the three options, "x" meaning not applicable):

• Deadly Arts: x-1-x
• Critical Strikes: 1/2-1/3-2
• Shadow Arts: All
• Acrobatics: All
• Trickery: 2-2/3-2
• Daredevil: 2/3-1/3-2
• Deadeye: 2/3-2-2/3
• Specter: 1/2-2-2/3

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In PvP:

Weapons: Dagger/Dagger, Pistol/Dagger, Staff, Scepter/Dagger

Skills:

• Healing: Signet, Skelk Venom, Channeled Vigor, Malicious Restoration
• Deception: Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area
• Signets: Power
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Scorpion Wire
• Venoms: All
• Physical: All
• Cantrips: All
• Wells: Silence, Sorrow, Tears
• Elite: Thieves Guild, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld

Traits:

• Deadly Arts: 1-3-3
• Critical Strikes: All
• Shadow Arts: 1/3-x-1/3
• Acrobatics: 1/2-1/3-2/3
• Trickery: 1/2-2/3-1/3
• Daredevil: 3-1-1
• Deadeye: 2/3-2/3-2/3
• Specter: 1/3-1/2-1/3

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In WvW (including GvG):

Weapons: Dagger/Dagger, Scepter/Dagger

Skills:

• Healing: Signet, Skelk Venom, Malicious Restoration
• Deceptions: Shadow Refuge
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area, Thousand Needs
• Signets: Shadows
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Scorpion Wire
• Venoms: Ice Drake, Skale, Spider
• Physical: All
• Cantrips: All
• Wells: Silence, Sorrow, Tears
• Elite: Thieves Guild, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld

Traits:

• Deadly Arts: 1-3-3
• Critical Strikes: 1-1/3-2
• Shadow Arts: 1/3-1-1
• Acrobatics: 1-3-3
• Trickery: 1/2-3-x
• Daredevil: 3-3-1
• Deadeye: 2/3-2/3-3
• Specter: x-1/2-1/3

Notable Observations:

• At some point, each weapon combination available to thieves is recommended to be brought along;
• For healing, Skelk Venom and Malicious Restoration are not used in any game mode;
• Shadow Refuge is not used in any game mode;
• Pitfall and Seal Area are not used in any game mode;
• Caltrops and Haste are not used in any game mode. Scorpion Wire is not used in PvP/WvW;
• Ice Drake Venom is not used in any game mode;
• Bandit's Defense, Distracting Daggers, and Impairing Daggers are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Physical utility skills;
• Binding Shadow, Shadow Flare, and Shadow Gust are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Cantrip utility skills;
• Wells of Silence and Tears are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Sorrow, either;
• For elite skills, Impact Strike and Shadow Meld are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW also do not use Thieves Guild;
• Deadly Arts and all of the trait choices within it find tremendous use across all game modes;
• No game mode uses Assassin's Fury, Sundering Shade, Deadly Aim, or Hidden Killer in Critical Strikes;
• No game mode uses Shielding Restoration, Hidden Thief, or Cover of Shadow in Shadow Arts;
• No game mode uses Instant Reflexes, Hard to Catch, or Don't Stop in Acrobatics;
• No game mode uses Burst of Agility or Pressure Striking in Trickery;
• No game mode uses Brawler's Tenacity in Daredevil;
• No game mode uses Collateral Damage, One in the Chamber, Payback, or Fire for Effect in Deadeye;
• No game mode uses Amplified Siphoning or Shadestep in Specter.

[kash.9213]

I can see a lot of that. Pitfall, Silence, and Tears are my go-to circles in WvW though. I also cover people most of the time and SA 1-1-1 is a nice roll out with Specter sc/p and s/d. You're probably spot on about sc/dagger, unless someone's doing a solid and running golums or something. I still get shook by a dagger/dagger once in a while but I get that one. I do kind of feel locked in to Specter 3-3-2. 

[Noko Anon.9154]

There's always going to be that oddball who tries something different. The weapon sets don't surprise me nearly as much as the realization that thief's core kit is so potent its elite specs are only better than it for very specific reasons, i.e. daredevil being a better acrobatics line, or 1-1-1 deadeye having so much stealth and boon access nothing else in the spec compares to it. Physical skills and cantrips by and large are just so massively useless. Just like skelk venom...

Edited January 14, 2023 by Noko Anon.9154

[Dadnir.5038]

PvE: Where stealthing your party is actually a thing, both shadow refuge and smoke screen are very useful. Both of them have uses on specific parts of some fractals (underground facility) and, in general, in dungeons. Those are for utility and generally PvE meta builds don't care much for utility, you just take the utility when you need it.

 

[Noko Anon.9154]

So Shadow Refuge is a by-definition "utility" skill! Here's hoping other utilities can catch up to it 😉

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

So Shadow Refuge is a by-definition "utility" skill! Here's hoping other utilities can catch up to it 😉

Well, I didn't mean it this way... I the sense I mean, Shadow flare for exemple is more of a "damage dealing" skill than an "utility".

[Noko Anon.9154]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I know, and I apologize, I forget that forum posts make it difficult to differentiate between rude sarcasm and friendly sarcasm. Believe me, it's all friendly. Refuge is a solid option for PvE skips, and its stationary aspect makes it mostly useless in PvP/WvW (the dark combo field certainly doesn't help it, either), so it really is a true "utility" skill. I'd be impressed if I saw Refuge in someone's rotation lol

[Dadnir.5038]

4 minutes ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

I know, and I apologize, I forget that forum posts make it difficult to differentiate between rude sarcasm and friendly sarcasm. Believe me, it's all friendly. Refuge is a solid option for PvE skips, and its stationary aspect makes it mostly useless in PvP/WvW (the dark combo field certainly doesn't help it, either), so it really is a true "utility" skill. I'd be impressed if I saw Refuge in someone's rotation lol

Well, it last 4s, technically you could squeeze 2 stealth attacks... 😅

Dark combo field... Yeah, dark combo fields have seldom been helpful. Last time they were helpful was when WvW's determined NPC took full damage from life leeching effects... Was it in 2013 or 2014?

[Zacchary.6183]

Pretty much everything you listed is like that for two reasons:

1. Underwhelming
2. Lack of utility

[Noko Anon.9154]

I wonder how to make skelk venom not underwhelming...

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

I wonder how to make skelk venom not underwhelming...

It's not that skelk venom is bad or underwhelming, it's mainly that it's a "healer" skill. The base healing output of the skill is one of the highest in the game as it's a 10k self heal without healing power.

The lack of popularity of the skill is that:

- Outside of specter, it's hard to couple boons and healing as a thief.

- Specter will favor it's well for many reasons.

- A single skill can't make you into a competent healer/support and taking the venom trait as a "healer" is a net loss of healing output compared to shadow savior.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Biggest problem I have with this thread is that it is made under the presumption that players aren't swapping out their utilities as the situation demands it.  This is especially true in PVP, where having something unexpected can secure a win.  Some non-comprehensive comments:  

• Smokescreen: This gets used all of the time in Fractals.  It's the best blind spam in the game, while also destroying projectiles.  Dropping this on a group of enemies insures victory.  I've also seen this used in WvW, against me specifically.
• Shadow's Refuge:  This is used on Heal Specter builds, and it is also used to sneak past things in dungeons and certain fractals, as it is the longest lasting AoE stealth in the game.
• Pitfall/Seal Area: These are excellent control skills in PVP and WvW.  
• Caltrops: These are used on the condi builds.  This goes unstated most of the time, because most build sites make recommendations based on fighting a lone boss.  Venoms are pretty terrible when dealing with multiple enemies and/or a scattered group.  In those situations, it is better for Condi DD and Condi Deadeye to run caltrops instead of one of the venoms.  Caltrops has the damage of a venom skill, but it does this in an AoE and also works without nearby teammates.
• Signet of Shadows: I don't know about anyone else, but when I play OLC I'm usually the kiter.  While kiting the green or the red away from the group, it is really handy to have this equipped, since I won't be getting swiftness from my teammates anytime soon.
• Impairing Daggers: I will admit this is an often overlooked skill.  Not always, though.  Like Caltrops, it is superior to venoms in situations with scattered teammates in PVE.  However, its real use is in PVP/WvW, where it is a devastating lockdown ability.  It is also used on power builds as a replacement for Fist Flurry while underwater.
• Shadow Flare: This is the recommended DPS utility on Deadeye from Snowcrows.
• Shadow Gust: This is part of the old Mercy builds for Deadeye.  Gust hasn't stopped seeing use, insomuch as the build websites are now more focused on making Deadeye niche instead of widely available everywhere.  Because of this, you don't see as many listed builds with Gust or Mercy, even though they're part of the Deadeye's regular utilities when used everywhere else from Q1 + Q2.
• Well of Silence: This gets used in fractal and dungeons.  The pulsing interrupt when combined with Pressure Striking causes it to do more damage than Well of Sorrow on condi builds against anything without a breakbar.
• Well of Tears: This is used on the heal specter builds.
• Impact Strike: I'm pretty sure this is BIS damage for power daredevil right now.  It's superior CC to Basilisk Venom with a scattered group, too.
• Shadow Meld: This is used on all Deadeye builds for PVE, and is frequently used in PVP/WvW.
• Shadowfall: This is used on both alac and heal specter in PVE, and it is also used on Specter in WvW/PVP.

 

[Noko Anon.9154]

Well then, I’m just confounded then. What’s with all the talk on this forum about the devs “hating thief” and how “thief is busted” if all of the weapons, skills, and specializations see some field of play across all game modes? Are people here complaining for the sake of complaining?

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

it is made under the presumption that players aren't swapping out their utilities as the situation demands it.

In cases that switching out does happen, its usually because the thief knows how to take advantage of the niche use of the less commonly used things. Thief is not a beginner-friendly profession, though, so baseline skill levels will have this issue of utility/trait use.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

Well then, I’m just confounded then. What’s with all the talk on this forum about the devs “hating thief” and how “thief is busted” if all of the weapons, skills, and specializations see some field of play across all game modes? Are people here complaining for the sake of complaining?

Players will always say that their favourite profession in UP and expect the majority to agree with them.

The truth is that when you commit to a character, you always end up feeling it's inherent limits and you can't help to compare those limits to the limits of other professions. It often lead to a feeling of inferiority that end up in minimizing the strengths of a profession and exagerating it's weaknesses.

[ASP.8093]

On 1/13/2023 at 8:01 PM, Noko Anon.9154 said:

• Shadow Refuge is not used in any game mode;
• Pitfall and Seal Area are not used in any game mode;

Seal Area occasionally shows up in SPvP. I think the Specter cuts may have kicked it out of the meta for now but the skill itself is viable in the context of a duelist-ish Thief build.

Shadow Refuge: is kind of a newbie trap in many situations, but it shows up quite effectively in Improvisation-based D/P Daredevil builds.

 

On 1/13/2023 at 8:01 PM, Noko Anon.9154 said:

• Binding Shadow, Shadow Flare, and Shadow Gust are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Cantrip utility skills;
• […]
• For elite skills, Impact Strike and Shadow Meld are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW also do not use Thieves Guild;

Err, isn't Shadow Flare standard in certain Snow-Crows-y raid builds? (Even though it can reveal you if you mess up!!) Binding Shadow is good enough at securing kills that it occasionally becomes part of the SPvP/WvW-roaming meta, and Shadow Gust is mainly a WvW troll skill but we can forgive that I think.

Shadow Meld has a serious presence in every game mode. It fixes scuffed rotations, helps you counter "Sic 'Em," and just generally doesn't suck. In WvW/SPvP, any Deadeye build can basically run either Shadow Meld or Dagger Storm as strictly a matter of preference.

Thieves Guild is mostly associated with condi P/D builds that can share venom to the thieves.

…

Smoke Screen got nerfed really hard to force it out of SPvP. Scorpion Wire is perfectly fine in SPvP/WvW, it's not meta but P/D type build can use it alright. People also swap to it when clouding in WvW.

Smoke Screen is still serious business in PvE any time you need to negate projectiles.

Edited January 15, 2023 by ASP.8093

[Noko Anon.9154]

I've seen plenty of discussion on skills, but not so much on traits. Are certain traits not being taken not all that important?

[Junno.4031]

10 minutes ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

Are certain traits not being taken not all that important?

Many threads have been made in the forums  about traitlines on thief and they still don't change anything so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Noko Anon.9154]

56 minutes ago, Junno.4031 said:

 

Well that's unfortunate. Deadeye and Acrobatics sure have a lot of empty space within them.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:01 PM, Noko Anon.9154 said:

After trolling over numerous build repositories for multiple game modes (sans Open World), here is what I have gathered that is not being used in any popular, be it meta or otherwise, build. Granted, there may be a handful of people using these things, but this is a collection of the collective.

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In PvE (cumulative of fractals, strikes, and raids):

Weapons: Dagger/Pistol, Main-Hand Pistol, Sword/Dagger, Scepter/Pistol

Skills:

• Healing: Withdraw / Skelk Venom / Malicious Restoration
• Deceptions: Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area
• Signets: Inflitrator's, Shadows
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Roll for Initiative
• Venoms: Ice Drake
• Physical: Bandit's Defense, Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers
• Cantrips: Binding Shadow, Shadow Flare, Shadow Gust
• Wells: Silence, Tears
• Elite: Dagger Storm, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld, Shadowfall

Traits (1 being the top-most trait choice of the three options, "x" meaning not applicable):

• Deadly Arts: x-1-x
• Critical Strikes: 1/2-1/3-2
• Shadow Arts: All
• Acrobatics: All
• Trickery: 2-2/3-2
• Daredevil: 2/3-1/3-2
• Deadeye: 2/3-2-2/3
• Specter: 1/2-2-2/3

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In PvP:

Weapons: Dagger/Dagger, Pistol/Dagger, Staff, Scepter/Dagger

Skills:

• Healing: Signet, Skelk Venom, Channeled Vigor, Malicious Restoration
• Deception: Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area
• Signets: Power
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Scorpion Wire
• Venoms: All
• Physical: All
• Cantrips: All
• Wells: Silence, Sorrow, Tears
• Elite: Thieves Guild, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld

Traits:

• Deadly Arts: 1-3-3
• Critical Strikes: All
• Shadow Arts: 1/3-x-1/3
• Acrobatics: 1/2-1/3-2/3
• Trickery: 1/2-2/3-1/3
• Daredevil: 3-1-1
• Deadeye: 2/3-2/3-2/3
• Specter: 1/3-1/2-1/3

Weapons, Skills, and Traits Not Used In WvW (including GvG):

Weapons: Dagger/Dagger, Scepter/Dagger

Skills:

• Healing: Signet, Skelk Venom, Malicious Restoration
• Deceptions: Shadow Refuge
• Preparations: Pitfall, Seal Area, Thousand Needs
• Signets: Shadows
• Tricks: Caltrops, Haste, Scorpion Wire
• Venoms: Ice Drake, Skale, Spider
• Physical: All
• Cantrips: All
• Wells: Silence, Sorrow, Tears
• Elite: Thieves Guild, Impact Strike, Shadow Meld

Traits:

• Deadly Arts: 1-3-3
• Critical Strikes: 1-1/3-2
• Shadow Arts: 1/3-1-1
• Acrobatics: 1-3-3
• Trickery: 1/2-3-x
• Daredevil: 3-3-1
• Deadeye: 2/3-2/3-3
• Specter: x-1/2-1/3

Notable Observations:

• At some point, each weapon combination available to thieves is recommended to be brought along;
• For healing, Skelk Venom and Malicious Restoration are not used in any game mode;
• Shadow Refuge is not used in any game mode;
• Pitfall and Seal Area are not used in any game mode;
• Caltrops and Haste are not used in any game mode. Scorpion Wire is not used in PvP/WvW;
• Ice Drake Venom is not used in any game mode;
• Bandit's Defense, Distracting Daggers, and Impairing Daggers are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Physical utility skills;
• Binding Shadow, Shadow Flare, and Shadow Gust are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Cantrip utility skills;
• Wells of Silence and Tears are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW do not use Sorrow, either;
• For elite skills, Impact Strike and Shadow Meld are not used in any game mode. PvP/WvW also do not use Thieves Guild;
• Deadly Arts and all of the trait choices within it find tremendous use across all game modes;
• No game mode uses Assassin's Fury, Sundering Shade, Deadly Aim, or Hidden Killer in Critical Strikes;
• No game mode uses Shielding Restoration, Hidden Thief, or Cover of Shadow in Shadow Arts;
• No game mode uses Instant Reflexes, Hard to Catch, or Don't Stop in Acrobatics;
• No game mode uses Burst of Agility or Pressure Striking in Trickery;
• No game mode uses Brawler's Tenacity in Daredevil;
• No game mode uses Collateral Damage, One in the Chamber, Payback, or Fire for Effect in Deadeye;
• No game mode uses Amplified Siphoning or Shadestep in Specter.

I use shelk venoms on DPS specter. It's very useful and heals a lot actually imo.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

In cases that switching out does happen, its usually because the thief knows how to take advantage of the niche use of the less commonly used things. Thief is not a beginner-friendly profession, though, so baseline skill levels will have this issue of utility/trait use.

That's... not really an issue.  The frequency of skill/trait use is a problem only in the more abstract sense that, somehow, a profession is being denied effectiveness in their performance due to poor trait choice.  Or, if a profession becomes stale because there are few ways to play it.  New players not picking up on all of the good tools that thief has... isn't all that big of a deal.  

13 hours ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

Well then, I’m just confounded then. What’s with all the talk on this forum about the devs “hating thief” and how “thief is busted” if all of the weapons, skills, and specializations see some field of play across all game modes? Are people here complaining for the sake of complaining?

Yes.  But, that's not really the issue here.  The proportion of skill usage doesn't equate to the effectiveness of a profession, for versatility is not the same as power.  You can have a profession with very few used utilities/traits and good performance, and you can have the inverse of that.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Just gonna say, Blinding Powder is a bit insane on Deadeye.  I have little playtime on thief and was able to win many ranked sPvP games (for Ascension) in high silver / low gold with Deadeye + BP for escaping. 

I assume it's still effective in higher tiers of gold but my thief knowledge isn't 😂.

[Noko Anon.9154]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

What do you perceive as the issue here? If there is one, of course.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 1/16/2023 at 6:02 AM, Noko Anon.9154 said:

What do you perceive as the issue here? If there is one, of course.

With thief?  In PVP/WvW they have to be balanced around their high skill ceiling.  The numbers on most of their skills and abilities keep getting reduced to prevent thieves from becoming overpowering in these modes, which causes thief to be underwhelming for the majority of players there.  The way GW2 does stealth is mechanically unfun to fight against, which is why screams for thief nerfs resound even when they aren't as strong.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Yasai.3549]

I don't understand the point of this post. If utilities are underused, it's because the players have the choice to optimize their build around the content they are running versus forcing themselves to run a certain utility skill to make up for it. 

Just an example, under skills not used in PvP, you put in Venoms all not used. But that's just blatant untruth if say someone wants to play a Condi Thief and needs one or two Venoms to maximize their burst Condi against one matchup, but for the next they don't feel like Venom or Venomshare is needed. 

So what are you gonna suggest? Venoms be buffed? Venoms be removed? 

There are so many utilities you have written off as "not used at all" which do have use in specific encounters, like Bandit Defense being used to block certain attacks in Raids if the player feels like they need a safeguard against such a mechanic. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Yasai.3549