Fb nerf suggestions.

[zealex.9410]

Imo its a cold take to say that fb does too much dmg, especially qfb atm is insane for the utility it can provide and the dmg it does out dpsing even pure dps builds (with allies) when it imo should be around ~33k dps tops. Cfb imo does slightly too much dmg but for me that build should be around 39-40k dps. 

 

The problem is that its very easy in the attempt to nerf one to also massively nerf the other as their overlap is extensive, they have very similar kits and traits and the space between the 2 for nerfs that hurt qfb more is very tight.

Do you have any idea and suggestion as to how you nerf both but qfb gets the bulk of the nerfs without cfb suffering too much?

**EDIT** : 

Ok i got a couple ideas on how to tackle the fb nerfs. 

First nerf the quickness output of the quickness mantra baseline, the goal is for qfb to have to take weighty terms instead of legendary lore to be able to put out perma quickness (enough of s nerf where you wouldnt want to stack 3 firebrands to avoid taking weighty terms). Id follow this with a couple smallish nerfs to tome 1 skill 4 and/or 5, flame mantra final charge (not enough to not use it) and potentially puting more of the axe's power in the axe trait while also buffing the axe trait.

 

The goal here is to have qfb have a largely diff trait path from dps fb which makes balancing the 2 much easier, by compensating for the nerfs by buffing the axe trait we ensure that dps fb gets nerfed but not nearly as heavily as quick fb which really needs the nerfs.

The goal dps of these 2 builds (IMO) should be qfb around 32k and cfb around 39 to 40k.

Edited March 2, 2023 by zealex.9410

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Imo its a cold take to say that fb does too much dmg, especially qfb atm is insane for the utility it can provide and the dmg it does out dpsing even pure dps builds (with allies) when it imo should be around ~33k dps tops. Cfb imo does slightly too much dmg but for me that build should be around 39-40k dps. 

 

The problem is that its very easy in the attempt to nerf one to also massively nerf the other as their overlap is extensive, they have very similar kits and traits and the space between the 2 for nerfs that hurt qfb more is very tight.

Do you have any idea and suggestion as to how you nerf both but qfb gets the bulk of the nerfs without cfb suffering too much?

My advice, don't even bother trying to balance around golem numbers. Forget they exist when considering balancing design. Unless you know what the average FB players are getting in the actual events, you're not working with relevant data. 

[Hotride.2187]

Axe cfb, buff dragonhunter if you really have to. Guard already can do a ton of things, it wont bother me if cfb leaves. Hfb and qcfb alone are already choice enough if you want to play fb specifically.

But you can likely make the qcfb investment in concentration higher, since right now its absurd. If cfb scales enough off precision, maybe you'd have an easier time balacing dmg.

[Orpheus.7891]

Ugh, bad time to pick up Guardian?

Edited February 27, 2023 by Orpheus.7891

[zealex.9410]

2 hours ago, Orpheus.7891 said:

Ugh, bad time to pick up Guardian?

Not really, fb is just op currently but otherwise its a great class atm.

[zealex.9410]

Ok i got a couple ideas on how to tackle the fb nerfs. 

First nerf the quickness output of the quickness mantra baseline, the goal is for qfb to have to take weighty terms instead of legendary lore to be able to put out perma quickness (enough of s nerf where you wouldnt want to stack 3 firebrands to avoid taking weighty terms). Id follow this with a couple smallish nerfs to tome 1 skill 4 and/or 5, flame mantra final charge (not enough to not use it) and potentially puting more of the axe's power in the axe trait while also buffing the axe trait.

 

The goal here is to have qfb have a largely diff trait path from dps fb which makes balancing the 2 much easier, by compensating for the nerfs by buffing the axe trait we ensure that dps fb gets nerfed but not nearly as heavily as quick fb which really needs the nerfs.

The goal dps of these 2 builds (IMO) should be qfb around 32k and cfb around 39 to 40k.

 

edit: Gonna paste this onto the original comment for more visibility.

Edited March 2, 2023 by zealex.9410

[ollbirtan.2915]

OP is spreading misinformation. FB is far from OP after it was stripped of its identity and had it's "flow" disrupted. FB is still  a good pick in PvE and WvW, and remains an absolute trash tier meme in sPvP.  

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

OP is spreading misinformation. FB is far from OP after it was stripped of its identity and had it's "flow" disrupted. FB is still  a good pick in PvE and WvW, and remains an absolute trash tier meme in sPvP.  

They can split these nerfs if it concerns the pvp balance, that being said fb is currently too strong in pve (quick fb to be specific, dps fb could use some small nerfs too)

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

OP is spreading misinformation. FB is far from OP after it was stripped of its identity and had it's "flow" disrupted. FB is still  a good pick in PvE and WvW, and remains an absolute trash tier meme in sPvP.  

The mantra and tome change was a massive buff to fb in pve. Not sure what you mean with "flow" disrupted. Its disgustingly op in pve currently while also offering the best utility options in the game.

[ollbirtan.2915]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The mantra and tome change was a massive buff to fb in pve. Not sure what you mean with "flow" disrupted. Its disgustingly op in pve currently while also offering the best utility options in the game.

I agree with the mantra reversal, but tome changes were terribly executed and made the class kitten clunky across all game modes. 

[Nephalem.8921]

37 minutes ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

I agree with the mantra reversal, but tome changes were terribly executed and made the class kitten clunky across all game modes. 

The tome change allows fb to provide regen without investment. hfb has much more access to stab/heal.

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

I agree with the mantra reversal, but tome changes were terribly executed and made the class kitten clunky across all game modes. 

Really? To me its like my hands got freed to use whatever utilities I want, instead of being locked into cleansing with mantra of lore. Plus not waiting for 50+ sec to drop a resistance field.

And for cfb/qcfb nothing really changed. Its clunky to keep track of the CDs in tome of justice, but that is a problem when you are really pushing numbers. Just pressing buttons already gives you a ton of dmg for next to no effort.

[zealex.9410]

14 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

I agree with the mantra reversal, but tome changes were terribly executed and made the class kitten clunky across all game modes. 

Only issue with the new tomes is that with spotty alac your timings are thrown off and you can see the cd of the tome 5 skills to know when to go in now. Otherwise firebrand is incredibly strong rn both in terms of dmg (qfb esp is busted) and in terms of utility.

[zealex.9410]

16 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The mantra and tome change was a massive buff to fb in pve. Not sure what you mean with "flow" disrupted. Its disgustingly op in pve currently while also offering the best utility options in the game.

I think the utility thing is argueable, herald is extremely strong too in that regard.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

FB is certainly not OP across pve content. It's strong in most situations, but my mesmer, revenant, and my willbender can handle many situations much more easily than my FB. Even my deadeye in some fights. FB has good versatility and group group support, but that has always been it's strength, not overt power. It still struggles with self sustain. 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

FB is certainly not OP across pve content. It's strong in most situations, but my mesmer, revenant, and my willbender can handle many situations much more easily than my FB. Even my deadeye in some fights. FB has good versatility and group group support, but that has always been it's strength, not overt power. It still struggles with self sustain. 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Litany_of_Wrath have you tried that skill? Have you tried using tome2 skills? Have you seen

?

It does as much damage as a pure dps while sharing quick to 5 players. Did you mean open world situations?

[Gaiawolf.8261]

30 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Litany_of_Wrath have you tried that skill? Have you tried using tome2 skills? Have you seen

?

It does as much damage as a pure dps while sharing quick to 5 players. Did you mean open world situations?

Litany of Wrath is my go to heal skill, and it is awesome, indeed. That and Bow of Truth are my primary sustain while putting up some blocks/evades. Tome 2 can help in clutch situations but isn't great for sustained damage, and LoW's CD has a big gap in the sustain window. Primarily OW, yes. It is the most played game mode, after all, by far.

Also:

On 2/27/2023 at 12:14 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

My advice, don't even bother trying to balance around golem numbers. Forget they exist when considering balancing design. Unless you know what the average FB players are getting in the actual events, you're not working with relevant data. 

(I also play wvw, where FB is great for zergs but not for roaming.)

[Nephalem.8921]

7 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Litany of Wrath is my go to heal skill, and it is awesome, indeed. That and Bow of Truth are my primary sustain while putting up some blocks/evades. Tome 2 can help in clutch situations but isn't great for sustained damage, and LoW's CD has a big gap in the sustain window. Primarily OW, yes. It is the most played game mode, after all, by far.

Not bothering with benchmarks is extremely short-sighted because good players will reach those. They should not be the only concern but are very important.

Play cele fb then. you are half a healer while still providing like 28k dps, quickness and might while being unkillable. Open world does not matter because you can faceroll through it without a screen in full cele.

[zicaA.6841]

No, thank you. FB is the only decent support guardian for pve, and there are a lot of support build performing 30k+ dps while sharing alac/quick.

 

Power ALAC untamed 35k

Condition ALAC untamed 34k

Power QUICK catalyst 33k

Condi ALAC renegade 33k

Condi QUICK harbinger 32k

Condi QUICK berserker 32k

Power QUICK herald 31k

Condi ALAC renegade 31k

Power QUICK bladesworn 30kP

Condi ALAC miragem 30k

Power QUICK scraper 30k

Power QUICK chrono 30k

 

 Plus, there are 12 pure DPS builds performing 40k+, FB is just one of then...

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by zicaA.6841

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 minutes ago, zicaA.6841 said:

No, thank you. FB is the only decent support guardian for pve, and there are a lot of support build performing 30k+ dps while sharing alac/quick.

 

Power ALAC untamed 35k

Condition ALAC untamed 34k

Power QUICK catalyst 33k

Condi ALAC renegade 33k

Condi QUICK harbinger 32k

Condi QUICK berserker 32k

Power QUICK herald 31k

Condi ALAC renegade 31k

Power QUICK bladesworn 30kP

Condi ALAC miragem 30k

Power QUICK scraper 30k

Power QUICK chrono 30k

 

 Plus, there are 12 build pure DPS performing 40k+, FB is just one of then...

 

I would like to ask, have you tried playing any of these builds? Most of them are on extremely clunky or situational classes, while Firebrand has a bit of jank overall it is a very smooth class, with very good survivability and DPS uptime, even in encounters where the enemy moves or becomes invulnerable alot.

 

For example my Bladesworn can't come anywhere near DPS benchmarks in actual fights because of how flow works, they have a huge ramp up time on the first Dragon Trigger especially, and classes like Catalyst have similar issues.

 

Untamed especially is the worst possible comparison since its jank city and works in all of maybe five encounters.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

29 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not bothering with benchmarks is extremely short-sighted because good players will reach those. They should not be the only concern but are very important.

Play cele fb then. you are half a healer while still providing like 28k dps, quickness and might while being unkillable. Open world does not matter because you can faceroll through it without a screen in full cele.

Benchmarks are a good tool for guilds looking to recruit or for players to test their mastery of a build. They are very poor tools to balance game content around. A-Net knows what metrics players are reaching in content, not just in a static test room. They will use those data, because they are far more relevant.

I use a cele build in OW and fractals. There are still plenty of champions, legendaries, challenges, bosses, and group events in OW that can test even a tanky build. In fractals, not so much. Unless if you're in a bad pug or doing a solo run. EDIT: Maybe CMs. I haven't done those.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[zicaA.6841]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I would like to ask, have you tried playing any of these builds? Most of them are on extremely clunky or situational classes, while Firebrand has a bit of jank overall it is a very smooth class, with very good survivability and DPS uptime, even in encounters where the enemy moves or becomes invulnerable alot.

 

For example my Bladesworn can't come anywhere near DPS benchmarks in actual fights because of how flow works, they have a huge ramp up time on the first Dragon Trigger especially, and classes like Catalyst have similar issues.

 

Untamed especially is the worst possible comparison since its jank city and works in all of maybe five encounters.

Yes, bro, and I agree. But, sorry, this isn't a FB problem...

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, zicaA.6841 said:

No, thank you. FB is the only decent support guardian for pve, and there are a lot of support build performing 30k+ dps while sharing alac/quick.

qfb is at 37.2k though. Because other builds scratch 30k its ok for fb to be that high?

1 hour ago, zicaA.6841 said:

Power ALAC untamed 35k

Condition ALAC untamed 34k

Power QUICK catalyst 33k

Condi ALAC renegade 33k

Condi QUICK harbinger 32k

Condi QUICK berserker 32k

Power QUICK herald 31k

Condi ALAC renegade 31k

Power QUICK bladesworn 30kP

Condi ALAC miragem 30k

Power QUICK scraper 30k

Power QUICK chrono 30k

 

 Plus, there are 12 pure DPS builds performing 40k+, FB is just one of then...

 

So you acknowledge fb overperforming hard then with being 25% ahead of scrapper and still like 20% ahead of herald? almost nobody plays alac untamed. its a 150 apm class that does not work on a lot of encounters. Its full 10% ahead of quick cata which i havent seen in ages too because it can not be played like a support unless you want to butcher its dps.

no on demand stab, aegis or cc. all part of your overly complex rotation.

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

For example my Bladesworn can't come anywhere near DPS benchmarks in actual fights because of how flow works, they have a huge ramp up time on the first Dragon Trigger especially, and classes like Catalyst have similar issues.

It takes 4sec until your first dragon trigger. That is only an issue in fractals. It takes 16secs for cata to gather all its buffs.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Benchmarks are a good tool for guilds looking to recruit or for players to test their mastery of a build. They are very poor tools to balance game content around. A-Net knows what metrics players are reaching in content, not just in a static test room. They will use those data, because they are far more relevant.

They are bad to look at in a vacuum. cata has a high bench with is fine because it has limitations. Weaver does only dmg and garbage utility options. Fb has build in utility and access to insanely broken utilities like:

wall of reflection: 62.5% reflect uptime from 1 skill.

Purging flames: 8 groupwide condi cleanses. 20sec cd and also your best dps skill because why not.

Sanctuary: 1050 breakbar damage. 40sec cd. Icebow 5 from ele does 400 for comparision on a 1min cd. moa does 600.

Free group stab and stunbreak as dps fb since elite slot is free.

And all of this while having a high bench on a fairly accessible class. its not scourge but its not super hard either.

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I use a cele build in OW and fractals. There are still plenty of champions, legendaries, challenges, bosses, and group events in OW that can test even a tanky build. In fractals, not so much. Unless if you're in a bad pug or doing a solo run. EDIT: Maybe CMs. I haven't done those.

The only one i know is mushroom queen hp in tangled depths and that one is fairly easy on a cele build. that 37.2k qfb build has 28k hp btw. its far from squishy.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The only one i know is mushroom queen hp in tangled depths and that one is fairly easy on a cele build. that 37.2k qfb build has 28k hp btw. its far from squishy.

Most players can't pull that off, even on a celestial build. Those numbers also look inflated. In full cele gear I have closer to 22K health, not 28K, and I don't know anyone getting 37k DPS in OW. Even Lord Hizen only gets around 14-18k on most of his builds. I've seen vids of an SB getting around 24k, but only for short bursts. 

Off the top of my head there's also Avatar of Balthazar, Chak Lobber, Legendary Facet and Awakened abomination, Migraine AP, Trembled Earth, Executioner Bandit, etc. A lot of players struggle with these.

Just yesterday I helped another player take down the Facet, because he said a team of six wiped on it.