The All (spoilers)

[Tyson.5160]

So the new Soo-Won legendary, which now confirmed Soo-Won’s secondary sphere, Life.

 

This got me thinking of the other spheres, especially Zhaitan. The Zhaitan legendary describes him as the dragon of Shadow and Death, like Primordus is Fire and slightly retconned to Destruction. Soo-Won is Water/Life etc. Given the each dragon’s main sphere is a sort of elemental power is Zhaitan really the Shadow dragon rather the death dragon? Life appears to Soo-Won’s secondary sphere so I would assume for prosperity that Zhaitan’s secondary sphere would be death.

 

Thoughts?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

It is weird that Zhaitan's two domains are swapped around, weirder still the achievement "Aurene's Facet of Shadow", but Zhaitan was always depicted as the Elder Death Dragon first and foremost. Shadow was first applied to Zhaitan in S2E5 - meaning we went the entire personal story without Zhaitan ever being called the Elder Shadow Dragon.

I am more inclined to believe that the dev(s) in charge of naming these decided that Shadow was better for the "Aurene's Facet of<...>" achievement and thought "Facet of Shadow and Death" sounded better than "Facet of Death and Shadow" and swapped it around - similar to how we have Aurene's Facet of Persuasion and Aurene's Facet of Life achievements, despite the other three being Fire, Crystal, and Plant.

Basically, there really isn't much consistency present.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

As for Primordus's domain, it wasn't retconned, just disambiguated. Conflagration means a destructive fire so its domains were recursive (fire and destructive fire), which seems like it wasn't well thought out many years ago.

 

Zhaitan's domains have been swapped ever since War Eternal, I think? Its been debated over the years what shadow magic means to him, but many players now agree he was mostly the shadow dragon. He resurrected the dead, yes, but he also hid in the shadows throughout the entire campaign (compared to Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik who were always like "let's go now, 1v1"), made extensive use of stealth and Mesmer magic, relied entirely on specialised minions (his main weakpoint), etc. The actual death part didn't actually play much of a role in the campaign, aside from the formation of the Pale Reavers. The more you compare him to other dragons the more it makes sense.

 

Modremoth's domains also keep changing in literally every appearance. Plant and mind, root and madness, vine and mind, and so on, I'm not sure what's even up with it at this point.

Edited March 8, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

26 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

As for Primordus's domain, it wasn't retconned, just disambiguated. Conflagration means a destructive fire so its domains were recursive (fire and destructive fire), which seems like it wasn't well thought out many years ago.

Additionally, Jormag calls Primordus the dragon of fire and destruction in Champions. Only in-game source is the Void champion during Defeat Soo-Won, but that also uses "Frost and Deception" for Jormag, and "Vine and Mind" for Mordy.

ANet devs likely changed it after hearing the feedback of confusion about it being "fire and fancy fire".

26 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Zhaitan's domains have been swapped ever since War Eternal, I think? Its been debated over the years what shadow magic means to him, but many players now agree he was mostly the shadow dragon.

I didn't see this (players agreeing it was mostly shadow) and would personally disagree that Shadow was the "main thing" it did. Shadow and stealth was used, sure, but minorly compared to just simply swarming undead. The only examples of stealth I can think of is the scout invading Port Stalwart / Lion's Arch, and later used against Fort Trinity. Maybe a few other times I'm not able to think of atm, but it was very much more "zerging undead" over "using stealth tactics" - both were there, but the former was much, much more common.

26 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

He resurrected the dead, yes, but he also hid in the shadows throughout the entire campaign (compared to Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik who were always like "let's go now, 1v1"),

Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth were not "lets go 1v1". They were also sending hordes of minions first - especially Mordremoth, as we had to fight to his domain in order to confront him, just as we did with Zhaitan. And with Kralkatorrik (as well as Jormag and Primordus), we baited them, and after taking out several of their champions and minions.
All five Elder Dragons "hid in the shadows" throughout their respective campaigns, at least as much as Zhaitan did.
Saying Death didn't take much role in the campaign is kind of like saying plants didn't take much role in Heart of Thorns - ignoring the fact every minions was a plant, the Elder Dragon was surrounded by plants, and the Elder Dragon himself was (partially) a plant.

In fact, in comparison to the other Elder Dragons, especially Mordremoth, I'd say your examples fit in comparison to Mind, Persuasion, and Destruction, much more:
One is the form their corruption and appearance takes (Death, Plant, Crystal, etc.), and the other is their abilities and methodology (Shadow, Mind, Persuasion, etc.)

[Tyson.5160]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It is weird that Zhaitan's two domains are swapped around, weirder still the achievement "Aurene's Facet of Shadow", but Zhaitan was always depicted as the Elder Death Dragon first and foremost. Shadow was first applied to Zhaitan in S2E5 - meaning we went the entire personal story without Zhaitan ever being called the Elder Shadow Dragon.

I am more inclined to believe that the dev(s) in charge of naming these decided that Shadow was better for the "Aurene's Facet of<...>" achievement and thought "Facet of Shadow and Death" sounded better than "Facet of Death and Shadow" and swapped it around - similar to how we have Aurene's Facet of Persuasion and Aurene's Facet of Life achievements, despite the other three being Fire, Crystal, and Plant.

Basically, there really isn't much consistency present.

Consistency definitely goes out the window over most of the dragon cycle arc. What is interesting is these secondary sphere do have commonality, if you put death as a secondary. Death/Life, Mind/Persuasion, Destruction/Fury. Was also interesting is with how the pairing add up together too in terms of their deaths. Zhaitan first to the die and Soo-Won last to die, Mordremoth and Jormag being the 2nd and 4th, along with Kralkatorrik and Primordus in the middle.

 

It’s most likely a case of  Pareidolia, but it’s an interesting observation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Consistency definitely goes out the window over most of the dragon cycle arc. What is interesting is these secondary sphere do have commonality, if you put death as a secondary. Death/Life, Mind/Persuasion, Destruction/Fury. Was also interesting is with how the pairing add up together too in terms of their deaths. Zhaitan first to the die and Soo-Won last to die, Mordremoth and Jormag being the 2nd and 4th, along with Kralkatorrik and Primordus in the middle.

 

It’s most likely a case of  Pareidolia, but it’s an interesting observation.

Eh.

The issue with this is that in Season 3, Mordremoth and Zhaitan are put as parallels - Mordremoth is even compared to life, incidentally enough:

Helper Qiana: I see now that Zhaitan delivered destruction and death. Mordremoth brought life.
Explorer: Makes sense. The life it brought was dark and dangerous, but it was life nonetheless.
Helper Qiana: And yet, we are not dark and dangerous.
Explorer: Are we not?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands

And then you have the Icebrood Abomination and its grubs, which are injured by the other energy (Mordrem injured by Zhaitan energy, Risen injured by Mordremoth energy). Very similar to Jormag's and Primordus' weaknesses to each other:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Bitter_Cold_(story)

And if you look at The All: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

S - K
Z - M
P - J

All this would suggest that Soo-Won and Kralkatorrik were paired up, rather than Zhaitan and Soo-Won. This would also work a bit - Death and plantlife, fire and ice, solids and liquids are all opposites.

But who knows if this was ever intended. Or if EoD devs (who were largely swapped out from S2-S3 devs) knew/followed through.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Tyson.5160]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Eh.

The issue with this is that in Season 3, Mordremoth and Zhaitan are put as parallels - Mordremoth is even compared to life, incidentally enough:

Helper Qiana: I see now that Zhaitan delivered destruction and death. Mordremoth brought life.
Explorer: Makes sense. The life it brought was dark and dangerous, but it was life nonetheless.
Helper Qiana: And yet, we are not dark and dangerous.
Explorer: Are we not?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands

And then you have the Icebrood Abomination and its grubs, which are injured by the other energy (Mordrem injured by Zhaitan energy, Risen injured by Mordremoth energy). Very similar to Jormag's and Primordus' weaknesses to each other:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Bitter_Cold_(story)

And if you look at The All: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

S - K
Z - M
P - J

All this would suggest that Soo-Won and Kralkatorrik were paired up, rather than Zhaitan and Soo-Won. This would also work a bit - Death and plantlife, fire and ice, solids and liquids are all opposites.

But who knows if this was ever intended. Or if EoD devs (who were largely swapped out from S2-S3 devs) knew/followed through.

Oh I agree that original pairing of Zhaitan/Mordremoth, Jormag/Primordus and Soo-Won/ Kralkatorrik is the bigger theme to focus on, just thought it was a bit interesting on these secondary spheres a slight pattern too.

 

 

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:04 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

As for Primordus's domain, it wasn't retconned, just disambiguated. Conflagration means a destructive fire so its domains were recursive (fire and destructive fire), which seems like it wasn't well thought out many years ago.

 

Zhaitan's domains have been swapped ever since War Eternal, I think? Its been debated over the years what shadow magic means to him, but many players now agree he was mostly the shadow dragon. He resurrected the dead, yes, but he also hid in the shadows throughout the entire campaign (compared to Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik who were always like "let's go now, 1v1"), made extensive use of stealth and Mesmer magic, relied entirely on specialised minions (his main weakpoint), etc. The actual death part didn't actually play much of a role in the campaign, aside from the formation of the Pale Reavers. The more you compare him to other dragons the more it makes sense.

 

Modremoth's domains also keep changing in literally every appearance. Plant and mind, root and madness, vine and mind, and so on, I'm not sure what's even up with it at this point.

 According to the new Aurene legendary title it’s the Facet of Fauna and Mind now. Go figure.

 

I really wished we had more insight into the less obvious secondary spheres , Fury and Destruction, come to mind.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:04 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Modremoth's domains also keep changing in literally every appearance. Plant and mind, root and madness, vine and mind, and so on, I'm not sure what's even up with it at this point.

Most of these are just the same thing stated with different words.

33 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

 According to the new Aurene legendary title it’s the Facet of Fauna and Mind now. Go figure.

Its Flora and Mind, not fauna.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

52 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Most of these are just the same thing stated with different words.

Its Flora and Mind, not fauna.

The writers stated in LWS4 commentary that it was intentional, to convey the effect of torment. Yet in this same mission (Descent), Zhaitan's domains remain unchanged aside from being swapped.

Edited March 9, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Tyson.5160]

4 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Most of these are just the same thing stated with different words.

Its Flora and Mind, not fauna.

You are correct, my mistake.

[Tyson.5160]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:46 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Eh.

The issue with this is that in Season 3, Mordremoth and Zhaitan are put as parallels - Mordremoth is even compared to life, incidentally enough:

Helper Qiana: I see now that Zhaitan delivered destruction and death. Mordremoth brought life.
Explorer: Makes sense. The life it brought was dark and dangerous, but it was life nonetheless.
Helper Qiana: And yet, we are not dark and dangerous.
Explorer: Are we not?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands

And then you have the Icebrood Abomination and its grubs, which are injured by the other energy (Mordrem injured by Zhaitan energy, Risen injured by Mordremoth energy). Very similar to Jormag's and Primordus' weaknesses to each other:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Bitter_Cold_(story)

And if you look at The All: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

S - K
Z - M
P - J

All this would suggest that Soo-Won and Kralkatorrik were paired up, rather than Zhaitan and Soo-Won. This would also work a bit - Death and plantlife, fire and ice, solids and liquids are all opposites.

But who knows if this was ever intended. Or if EoD devs (who were largely swapped out from S2-S3 devs) knew/followed through.

It’s seems that with the weapon collections, they seem to emphasize, the elemental connection first and then the secondary sphere as well… second. It seems to be very consistent through the weapon collection texts as well, especially the titles gained from the collection. I smell a retcon.

 

Gets me thinking as to whether Shadow is considered an elemental in this universe.
 

 

[mandala.8507]

My head canon for a while has been that Soo-Won is an imperfect life serpent. A serpentine seed of reality that would remain incomplete and stuck with dominion over just one domain of magic, making her susceptible to corruption via her inability to properly filter all of Tyria. Not enough light to go around.

Xiuquatl would be an example of a young-but-whole life serpent.

There's an entire mythos of Mists lore about celestial serpents (which includes the likes of the Krait and the Forgotten) and the source of eternal magic with its twin aspects of light and darkness constantly waging war for the future of all existence, but who knows if we'll ever truly understand what's up with that.

The scope of the narrative as it relates to world-building seems so small at the moment — hopefully the lens widens quickly as we approach this upcoming expansion and we come closer to comprehending The All's grand design.

Or we can just do fun Scooby-Doo demon hunting murder mystery. Either works, I guess.

[Tyson.5160]

Thinking about it more, if Death was a secondary sphere, they all kinda line up with the dragon minions. Destruction for Destroyers, Death for Risen, Persuasion for Icebrood, Fury for the Branded. The only on that doesn’t really fit is mind for Mordrem. It kinda works for Sylvari, but not the run of the mill Mordrem. Also unknown if Soo-Won’s Life would fit either.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Thinking about it more, if Death was a secondary sphere, they all kinda line up with the dragon minions. Destruction for Destroyers, Death for Risen, Persuasion for Icebrood, Fury for the Branded. The only on that doesn’t really fit is mind for Mordrem. It kinda works for Sylvari, but not the run of the mill Mordrem. Also unknown if Soo-Won’s Life would fit either.

Not sure how Destruction fits Destroyers beyond the name, given they're created out of fire and earth. Or how Persuasion fits for Icebrood, given they're made of Ice. Or Fury and Branded - they're crystal monsters, so they're... furious? And Kuunavang, our only example of Soo-Won's "minions", became watery.

I feel like that's just trying to create a pattern where none exists, like the attempts to relate the Six Gods to the Elder Dragons 1:1.

Besides, as I said before, the corruption fits the (original) primary domains.

The Fire Dragon makes fire minions.
The Death Dragon makes (un)death minions.
The Ice Dragon makes ice minions.
The Crystal Dragon makes crystal minions.
The Plant Dragon makes plant minions.
The Water Dragon makes water minions.

19 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

There's an entire mythos of Mists lore about celestial serpents (which includes the likes of the Krait and the Forgotten) and the source of eternal magic with its twin aspects of light and darkness constantly waging war for the future of all existence, but who knows if we'll ever truly understand what's up with that.

Krait have no relation to the Mists or Forgotten though? And the Forgotten are just servants of the Six Gods - no more special than humans. They're not exactly "celestial serpents", just an extraterrestrial race.

[Tyson.5160]

42 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not sure how Destruction fits Destroyers beyond the name, given they're created out of fire and earth. Or how Persuasion fits for Icebrood, given they're made of Ice. Or Fury and Branded - they're crystal monsters, so they're... furious? And Kuunavang, our only example of Soo-Won's "minions", became watery.

I feel like that's just trying to create a pattern where none exists, like the attempts to relate the Six Gods to the Elder Dragons 1:1.

Besides, as I said before, the corruption fits the (original) primary domains.

The Fire Dragon makes fire minions.
The Death Dragon makes (un)death minions.
The Ice Dragon makes ice minions.
The Crystal Dragon makes crystal minions.
The Plant Dragon makes plant minions.
The Water Dragon makes water minions.

Krait have no relation to the Mists or Forgotten though? And the Forgotten are just servants of the Six Gods - no more special than humans. They're not exactly "celestial serpents", just an extraterrestrial race.

I guess persuasions works for Icebrood since that is how Jormag corrupts. Destroyers created from fire and earth, but usually through destructive means, rumbling piles of molten lava, meteors, etc. Death is kinda obvious. Branded and Fury, guess they could be furious. I’m reminded of Fury of the Brand, which is an odd name to name an environmental effect. Oddly enough, I can think of two occasions that Branded talked, perhaps they are in a constant state of anger?

 

Would be nice if someone on the Narrative team could shed some light now that the dragon cycle is over.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Destroyers created from fire and earth, but usually through destructive means, rumbling piles of molten lava, meteors, etc.

Not at all. In GW1, Edge of Destiny, and the skritt storyline it's explained destroyers are formed slowly in vats of lava - spawning pools if you will.

Those erutptions and meteors aren't creating destroyers - they're transporting destroyers.

4 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Branded and Fury, guess they could be furious. I’m reminded of Fury of the Brand, which is an odd name to name an environmental effect. Oddly enough, I can think of two occasions that Branded talked, perhaps they are in a constant state of anger?

This is really stretching it, and the talking branded we got don't have anger in them at all imo. You have several cases:

1. Chief Kronon - though he doesn't talk in-game afaik, he does talk in the novel, and he's not very furious. In fact, his fury towards Destiny's Edge over his dead son is mitigated by servitude to Kralkatorrik.
2. Josso Essher - I guess you can argue anger here, but this feels no more or less angry than any risen shouting at us.
3. Victurus the Shattered - This guys is more masochistic than furious.
4. Vemyen - This guy is 100% the opposite of furious, and is actively telling us to leave and, later, thanking us for killing him. A shockingly unnatural amount of free will shown for a dragon minion. But it reads more as desperation than fury and anger.

The only other example of a "branded" talking - ignoring Glint and her kids - that I can think of would be Kralkatorrik's Torment, which isn't a branded but rather Kralkatorrik's twisted, warped personality created by conflicted magic. I don't think that has anything to do with Kralkatorrik's domain, as it's basically as furious as Mordremoth or Jormag's tormented selves (arguably more given Kralky was suffering more from Torment than the others, sans maybe Primordus who was also largely animalistic and angry and killing all things).

 

You also are inconsistent with your own reasoning:

4 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I guess persuasions works for Icebrood since that is how Jormag corrupts. Destroyers created from fire and earth, but usually through destructive means, rumbling piles of molten lava, meteors, etc. Death is kinda obvious. Branded and Fury, guess they could be furious. I’m reminded of Fury of the Brand, which is an odd name to name an environmental effect. Oddly enough, I can think of two occasions that Branded talked, perhaps they are in a constant state of anger?

 

Would be nice if someone on the Narrative team could shed some light now that the dragon cycle is over.

"Jormag corrupts through persuasion", "Primordus corrupts through destruction" (though this is false), "Zhaitan's minions are undead" (presumably that's what you mean by 'obvious'), "Kralkatorrik's minions are angry"

But as I said above, I mentioned above that the second domain has a lot of the Elder Dragon's methodology in it, while the first domain has the form the Elder Dragon's corruption takes. At least, going with the original set-up before Season 4:

• Zhaitan, nicknamed Elder Death Dragon; its corruption takes the form of death. His methods are utilizing shadows.
• Jormag, nicknamed Elder Ice Dragon, its corruption takes the form of ice. Their methods are to persuade and deceive.
• Primordus, nicknamed Elder Fire Dragon, its corruption takes the form of fire. Their methods are of destruction.
• Mordremoth, nicknamed Elder Plant Dragon, its corruption takes the form of plants and vegetation. Their methods and operations are through/to mess with the mind.
• S..., nicknamed Elder Water Dragon, corruption takes the form of water.

I think it's just safest to assume there is no real special meaning behind them swapping Death and Shadow around, or if there was, it was done out of forgetting the reasoning and patterns created by the original set-up when they decided the deep sea dragon should be a good dragon, the Mother, and originator of all life on Tyria. Because the swap happened in Season 4 finale first, which is when that got added, while in Season 3 we still got "Death and Shadow" and the parallels were created for Mordremoth to be "Life", albeit for plants.
And if that's the case, then we have to basically ignore the setups, relations, and lore from before S4's finale to figure out what that "special meaning" was. At which point I think it's just paralleling Death and Life in placement on the domain naming.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Tyson.5160]

10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not at all. In GW1, Edge of Destiny, and the skritt storyline it's explained destroyers are formed slowly in vats of lava - spawning pools if you will.

Those erutptions and meteors aren't creating destroyers - they're transporting destroyers.

This is really stretching it, and the talking branded we got don't have anger in them at all imo. You have several cases:

1. Chief Kronon - though he doesn't talk in-game afaik, he does talk in the novel, and he's not very furious. In fact, his fury towards Destiny's Edge over his dead son is mitigated by servitude to Kralkatorrik.
2. Josso Essher - I guess you can argue anger here, but this feels no more or less angry than any risen shouting at us.
3. Victurus the Shattered - This guys is more masochistic than furious.
4. Vemyen - This guy is 100% the opposite of furious, and is actively telling us to leave and, later, thanking us for killing him. A shockingly unnatural amount of free will shown for a dragon minion. But it reads more as desperation than fury and anger.

The only other example of a "branded" talking - ignoring Glint and her kids - that I can think of would be Kralkatorrik's Torment, which isn't a branded but rather Kralkatorrik's twisted, warped personality created by conflicted magic. I don't think that has anything to do with Kralkatorrik's domain, as it's basically as furious as Mordremoth or Jormag's tormented selves (arguably more given Kralky was suffering more from Torment than the others, sans maybe Primordus who was also largely animalistic and angry and killing all things).

 

You also are inconsistent with your own reasoning:

"Jormag corrupts through persuasion", "Primordus corrupts through destruction" (though this is false), "Zhaitan's minions are undead" (presumably that's what you mean by 'obvious'), "Kralkatorrik's minions are angry"

But as I said above, I mentioned above that the second domain has a lot of the Elder Dragon's methodology in it, while the first domain has the form the Elder Dragon's corruption takes. At least, going with the original set-up before Season 4:

• Zhaitan, nicknamed Elder Death Dragon; its corruption takes the form of death. His methods are utilizing shadows.
• Jormag, nicknamed Elder Ice Dragon, its corruption takes the form of ice. Their methods are to persuade and deceive.
• Primordus, nicknamed Elder Fire Dragon, its corruption takes the form of fire. Their methods are of destruction.
• Mordremoth, nicknamed Elder Plant Dragon, its corruption takes the form of plants and vegetation. Their methods and operations are through/to mess with the mind.
• S..., nicknamed Elder Water Dragon, corruption takes the form of water.

I think it's just safest to assume there is no real special meaning behind them swapping Death and Shadow around, or if there was, it was done out of forgetting the reasoning and patterns created by the original set-up when they decided the deep sea dragon should be a good dragon, the Mother, and originator of all life on Tyria. Because the swap happened in Season 4 finale first, which is when that got added, while in Season 3 we still got "Death and Shadow" and the parallels were created for Mordremoth to be "Life", albeit for plants.
And if that's the case, then we have to basically ignore the setups, relations, and lore from before S4's finale to figure out what that "special meaning" was. At which point I think it's just paralleling Death and Life in placement on the domain naming.

I guess the real issue here, since arguably the very beginning of the game is the Elder dragon lore hasn’t been consistent.

 

Zhaitan begins as the death dragon until Season 2 when now he is now described as the dragon of death and shadow, since Anet decided each dragon needed a second sphere of influence for Mordremoth’s mind sphere to make sense, which if you think about it, wasn’t needed. That being said we don’t really have a description for what the Shadow sphere actually is, yes there’s speculation, which I also contributed to, but nothing concrete.

 

Then we learn post humerus that Kralkatorrik’s second domain is Fury, which again, no description of what that is or what it does. They had opportunities during PoF and S4 to showcase this, but didn’t…
 

Jormag with Persuasion is shown, but kitten is it ever close to Mordremoth’s mind power.

 

Primordus and the destruction sphere, again what is it, what does it do, we learn  about it that Icebrood magazine as well as in a mail  during IBS that Primordus is the dragon of destruction ( or was it conflagration…).

 

Then Soo-Won with Life… which kinda makes sense… I guess?

Don’t even get me started on the dragon’s using each other’s spheres of influences, because then it becomes even more convoluted. Weird inconsistency with Mordremoth using the death sphere. Kralkatorrik has access to Mordremoth’s mind sphere now, cool! however there is no evidence in the game that really supports or shows this in the game. Same with Primordus receiving this feedback loop from Kralkatorrik… uhhh what sphere is that? When did Jormag figure out after being alive for thousands upon thousands of years that it can make Frozen…

Unique dragon weaknesses, remember those? I had to beg for an answer from the narrative team during an AMA regarding Zhaitan’s weakness, which wasn’t very clear. Mordremoth had his, Jormag and Primordus too and Kralkatorrik’s. What was Soo-Won’s weakness again? 

 

When I kinda go over all this in my mind it just feels like it makes next to no sense…

 

Am I just being an idiot here trying to construct some sort of reasoning out of this mess of dragon lore?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

When did Jormag figure out after being alive for thousands upon thousands of years that it can make Frozen…

We're explicitly shown this in Champions.

1. Taimi collects data on Primordus' minions, and their elemental feedback loop, in the Metrica Province DRM
2. Taimi presents this evidence before the Arcane Council, and Ryland, in the "Jormag's World" story instance at Rata Sum, with Ryland saying he has time to "experiment"
3. In the immediate next DRM, the one at Lake Doric, we see Jormag/Ryland start freezing people, in order to mimic what Primordus was doing, as a means to boost Jormag's power.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Then we learn post humerus that Kralkatorrik’s second domain is Fury, which again, no description of what that is or what it does. They had opportunities during PoF and S4 to showcase this, but didn’t…

Same with Primordus receiving this feedback loop from Kralkatorrik… uhhh what sphere is that?

Fury. Kralkatorrik/the Branded's ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful. Which was a major plot point in S4 that they could do this, and the basis behind Kralk's weakness as well.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Then Soo-Won with Life… which kinda makes sense… I guess?

Well she did literally create the first life on Tyria, that being the Elder Dragons.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Jormag with Persuasion is shown, but kitten is it ever close to Mordremoth’s mind power.

Similar but fundamentally different. Mordremoth just hijacks your mind, and forcibly takes control of you. Jormag has the ability to use your own desires against you, making you come to it of your own accord.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Am I just being an idiot here trying to construct some sort of reasoning out of this mess of dragon lore?

There's not really much, if any, of a mess here.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I guess the real issue here, since arguably the very beginning of the game is the Elder dragon lore hasn’t been consistent.

Yup.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Zhaitan begins as the death dragon until Season 2 when now he is now described as the dragon of death and shadow, since Anet decided each dragon needed a second sphere of influence for Mordremoth’s mind sphere to make sense, which if you think about it, wasn’t needed. That being said we don’t really have a description for what the Shadow sphere actually is, yes there’s speculation, which I also contributed to, but nothing concrete.

Yuuup.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Then we learn post humerus that Kralkatorrik’s second domain is Fury, which again, no description of what that is or what it does. They had opportunities during PoF and S4 to showcase this, but didn’t…

Yup.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Jormag with Persuasion is shown, but kitten is it ever close to Mordremoth’s mind power.

Yuuup.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Primordus and the destruction sphere, again what is it, what does it do, we learn  about it that Icebrood magazine as well as in a mail  during IBS that Primordus is the dragon of destruction ( or was it conflagration…).

Yuuup.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Don’t even get me started on the dragon’s using each other’s spheres of influences, because then it becomes even more convoluted. Weird inconsistency with Mordremoth using the death sphere. Kralkatorrik has access to Mordremoth’s mind sphere now, cool! however there is no evidence in the game that really supports or shows this in the game. Same with Primordus receiving this feedback loop from Kralkatorrik… uhhh what sphere is that? When did Jormag figure out after being alive for thousands upon thousands of years that it can make Frozen…

Let's not forget the fact that from S3 onward, "Elder Dragons can only corrupt corpses because they have Zhaitan's magic."
But in the quaggan personal story we directly see corpses become icebrood.

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Unique dragon weaknesses, remember those? I had to beg for an answer from the narrative team during an AMA regarding Zhaitan’s weakness, which wasn’t very clear. Mordremoth had his, Jormag and Primordus too and Kralkatorrik’s. What was Soo-Won’s weakness again? 

Can you even say Jormag and Primordus had theirs though? "They are each others' unique weakness" isn't really a unique weakness. And Season 3 even hinted that Mordy and Zhaitan were opposites and able to harm each other in the same way Jormag and Primordus were, while Jormag was also harmed by other powerful fire magics like the Spirit of Fire. Which basically suggested that every Elder Dragon had two "unique" weaknesses - one was exploiting their strength (used on Z, M, K) and the other was "their opposites" (used on J, P).

6 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

When I kinda go over all this in my mind it just feels like it makes next to no sense…

 

Am I just being an idiot here trying to construct some sort of reasoning out of this mess of dragon lore?

It's a huge issue brought about by the swap of writers. Core was largely overseen by Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee (Ree also had a bit of a hand in HoT iirc since sylvari were her thing), while S1->PoF was largely spearheaded by Scott McGough and Angel McCough; Season 4->EoD had given us Tom Abernathy as the Narrative Lead Designer, who repeatedly expressed the opinion that, in essence "character is more important than story or lore". There was also a notable drop in worldbuilding quantity and quality from S4 onward, imo. Though it picked up where Indigo Linde joined in, who worked on LWS1R and is working on expansion 4 with Matthew Medina as far as we know. There were other writers involved, but as Connar Griffith put very aptly in his writing the Aetherblade news post:

I often say that working on a big ongoing game like Guild Wars 2 is similar to working in a big comic universe. Multiple people have spun multiple storylines, sometimes under different editors with different grand ideas.

And if you ask me that's not a good thing at all. Especially when it gets convoluted with important story elements like this.

[Tyson.5160]

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We're explicitly shown this in Champions.

1. Taimi collects data on Primordus' minions, and their elemental feedback loop, in the Metrica Province DRM
2. Taimi presents this evidence before the Arcane Council, and Ryland, in the "Jormag's World" story instance at Rata Sum, with Ryland saying he has time to "experiment"
3. In the immediate next DRM, the one at Lake Doric, we see Jormag/Ryland start freezing people, in order to mimic what Primordus was doing, as a means to boost Jormag's power.

Fury. Kralkatorrik/the Branded's ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful. Which was a major plot point in S4 that they could do this, and the basis behind Kralk's weakness as well.

Well she did literally create the first life on Tyria, that being the Elder Dragons.

Similar but fundamentally different. Mordremoth just hijacks your mind, and forcibly takes control of you. Jormag has the ability to use your own desires against you, making you come to it of your own accord.

There's not really much, if any, of a mess here.

I would disagree. I think it’s a big mess. Where did you acquire this interpretation of the Fury Sphere? Jormag’s Frozen came suddenly out of left field. Is it a new ability learned from Kralkatorrik? Did Jormag always know how to do this? I’m fine with reading between the lines, but a lot of the story is non existent when it comes to these points.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Tyson.5160

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Where did you acquire this interpretation of the Fury Sphere?

HMMMM lets think about it shall we?

• The spheres represent the unique things the dragons do
• Kralks is Crystal and Fury
• Kralk makes crystal minions(hence Crystal domain)
• His crystal minions have the unique ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful(wonder what this domain could be!)

This doesn't require deep thought/investigation.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Jormag’s Frozen came suddenly out of left field. Is it a new ability learned from Kralkatorrik? Did Jormag always know how to do this?

The phrase "coming out of left field" implies its something that just happened with no build up, when the game explicitly shows us how the revelation Jormag could do it was made. Thus, it doesn't meet the criteria for "coming out of left field"

And no, Jormag didn't always know how to do this.... hence why Ryland needed to hear Taimi's report on Primordus' minions, and do experimentation, to develop the tactic.... as I already pointed out.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I’m fine with reading between the lines, but a lot of the story is non existent when it comes to these points.

This doesn't even require reading between lines. Just basic logical deduction and actually listening to what the NPCs say.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Tyson.5160]

18 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

HMMMM lets think about it shall we?

• The spheres represent the unique things the dragons do
• Kralks is Crystal and Fury
• Kralk makes crystal minions(hence Crystal domain)
• His crystal minions have the unique ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful(wonder what this domain could be!)

This doesn't require deep thought/investigation.

The phrase "coming out of left field" implies its something that just happened with no build up, when the game explicitly shows us how the revelation Jormag could do it was made. Thus, it doesn't meet the criteria for "coming out of left field"

And no, Jormag didn't always know how to do this.... hence why Ryland needed to hear Taimi's report on Primordus' minions, and do experimentation, to develop the tactic.... as I already pointed out.

This doesn't even require reading between lines. Just basic logical deduction and actually listening to what the NPCs say.

Sounds like the crystal domain to me… not Fury… in fact harmonization doesn’t remotely even come close to anything describing what Fury is, but again how would anyone know, since Fury was some sort of Hail Mary after Kralkatorrik died to give it a second sphere of influence, which is another failure in the story.

 

The Frozen do come out of left field. Why did Jormag need two Asura to figure out that it could create Frozen? The game doesn’t explain or even hint at it until we are about halfway through Champions, it would make more sense if this was a new ability that Jormag gained from Kralkatorrik, but again that wasn’t stated or hinted anywhere.

 

I listen to the npc dialogue, I comb through each of the dragon minions hoping to see some sort of combat ability or hint at to what these spheres of influence do. There aren’t any and unfortunately the story did not explain these spheres enough to be honest. The narrative team should have stuck with a more simple concept. Zhaitan is the Death dragon and death only. Mordremoth is the Jungle dragon, etc. I think they wrote themselves into a corner and did a bad job of explaining things.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Tyson.5160

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

48 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Sounds like the crystal domain to me… not Fury… in fact harmonization doesn’t remotely even come close to anything describing what Fury is, but again how would anyone know, since Fury was some sort of Hail Mary after Kralkatorrik died to give it a second sphere of influence, which is another failure in the story.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=hail+mary

Quote

What does saying a Hail Mary mean?

The term "Hail Mary" is sometimes used to refer to any last-ditch effort with little chance of success.

That's not what a Hail Mary means.

Also

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fury

Quote

1: intense, disordered, and often destructive rage

2

a capitalized : any of the avenging deities in Greek mythology who torment criminals and inflict plagues

b: an avenging spirit

c: one who resembles an avenging spirit

3: extreme fierceness or violence

4 : a state of inspired exaltation : frenzy

The increasing power of the branded via harmonization would fit several definitions of fury. As it it increases their destructive power/rage/fierceness/violence.

48 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

The Frozen do come out of left field. Why did Jormag need two Asura to figure out that it could create Frozen? The game doesn’t explain or even hint at it until we are about halfway through Champions, it would make more sense if this was a new ability that Jormag gained from Kralkatorrik, but again that wasn’t stated or hinted anywhere.

Why would Jormag not need two Asure to figure it out? The Elder Dragons are not all knowing entities. They're mortal, fallible, and have limited knowledge. Just like MANY people in real life who invented something needed someone ELSE to point out a useful application of said invention to the original inventor. That's just reality. There's almost certainly numerous possible applications for each of the Elder Dragon's magics that they never used because they had no reason to do it, and thus, no reason to think about doing it.

48 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I listen to the npc dialogue, I comb through each of the dragon minions hoping to see some sort of combat ability or hint at to what these spheres of influence do. There aren’t any and unfortunately the story did not explain these spheres enough to be honest. The narrative team should have stuck with a more simple concept. Zhaitan is the Death dragon and death only. Mordremoth is the Jungle dragon, etc. I think they wrote themselves into a corner and did a bad job of explaining things.

There are several hints, you just missed them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

HMMMM lets think about it shall we?

• The spheres represent the unique things the dragons do
• Kralks is Crystal and Fury
• Kralk makes crystal minions(hence Crystal domain)
• His crystal minions have the unique ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful(wonder what this domain could be!)

This doesn't require deep thought/investigation.

You know that resonance is a natural aspect of crystals, right? And this is exactly what's stated in both Path of Fire and All or Nothing, even:

Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.

Josso Essher: Its creations share a fundamental resonance that connects them back to the crystal dragon and makes them vulnerable to each other.

Glint: My followers and I developed the resonance crystals that made possible the Dragonsblood Spear.

Glint: Creating the crystals, forging the Spear... These acts required the channeling of powerful magic.

Glint: With the right resonance, crystal can not only be broken, but molded. Shaped.

Forge Master Hilina: When you and the scion release the crystal's resonance, the raw material will become malleable.

It is always, always, the crystal's resonance. Because it's a real thing, and is even a core component of crystal oscillators.

It has nothing to do with the Fury domain, which was only namedropped with IBS, and all ties of "Fury" to the branded/Kralkatorrik are tied to lightning.

I agree with the Frozen - it's built up, though that buildup is fast due to the rushed nature of Champions (everything in Champions happens at 2-3x the pace it should). But if Kralkatorrik ever shows anything about the Fury domain, it's in the lightning and storms. You know the Fury of the Brand effect.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The increasing power of the branded via harmonization would fit several definitions of fury. As it it increases their destructive power/rage/fierceness/violence.

Uhmm... Branded didn't have increased power via harmonizing or fury, nor increased destructive power/rage/fierceness/violence.

Are you thinking of the destroyers in IBS, which out of nowhere says that destroyers make Primordus stronger by being destructive via some sort of feedback loop?

Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.

It's unclear whether this can be attributed to crystal, fury, or just a retcon into Primordus' capabilities that got stronger with even more magic.

Of course, if it is Kralk's magic, then that opens a whole new can of worms. Specifically: how did Jormag and/or Primordus get Kralkatorrik magic, but Soo-Won didn't? Either with Kralk's death, or with J+P's deaths? The entire purpose of Ankka hitting Soo-Won was to give her the crystal domain, the final domain she didn't have, so as to unleash Void, after all.

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

The Frozen do come out of left field. Why did Jormag need two Asura to figure out that it could create Frozen? The game doesn’t explain or even hint at it until we are about halfway through Champions, it would make more sense if this was a new ability that Jormag gained from Kralkatorrik, but again that wasn’t stated or hinted anywhere.

To the bold: probably the same way Kralkatorrik took time to figure out how to use Mind domain, and ended up using it to create a shared spatial awareness between minions rather than doing micromanagement or mass telepathy like Mordremoth did. The Elder Dragons aren't all-knowing, and are extremely stuck in their ways. It takes time for them to figure how to use their magic in new forms, or how to use new magic.

That said, it is suggested to be power gained, as Aurene calls it corrupted magic, and making use of the Frozen drives Jormag to further madness (hence the story step "Jormag's Madness" and Jormag becoming increasingly frantic and irrational after the Frozen are made). It's not entirely clear if it's gained from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, or Kralkatorrik - or a combination thereof. I'd assume Kralkatorrik because unmelting crystal. But then we have the issue mentioned above - why didn't Soo-Won get any Kralk juice until Ankka hit her with the extractor full of Aurene's magic, if Jormag and Primordus did?