[Feedback/Suggestions] SAB 301 Test Level

[mythical.6315]

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I want to say I didn't expect to be bitched out by people on the internet for giving my opinion, but let's face it, it's the internet

You're using the victim card now?  What about the OP and me who were giving our opinions and didn't want to be "bitched at" by you coming from the Lore subforum?  Hypocrisy much?  Maybe if you were creating counter arguments instead of manipulating them instead, things may have progressed differently.

The zones are fairly linear.  Yes, the first time doing a zone will take a lot of time compared to subsequent runs but that's how all things go.  There's no reason to not use the shortcuts when you're just trying to complete the zones for the bauble bubbles.  The ones in zone 2 of both maps have achievements tied to them including a daily which we just had; they're not exactly secret.  The shortcuts in W2Z3 are also clearly marked as well as the one at the start of W1Z1. 

I don't see why the whole experienced vs casual argument had to be brought in where the definition of 'casual' is often twisted/tailored to support whatever argument the person using it is making.  I spend 40 minutes every day doing relaxed clears until I have enough bauble bubbles for the new skins and the remaining weekly weapon skin box.  The gulf you're trying to imply is not as wide as you're making it out to be.

Anyway, this is diverting away from the discussion which was about feedback for the test level.  You can agree or disagree with what I said; I don't really care.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You're using the victim card now?  What about the OP and me who were giving our opinions and didn't want to be "bitched at" by you coming from the Lore subforum?  Hypocrisy much?

Saying "I disagree" and "I don't see where you're coming from" as I did in my first two posts is pretty different from "you're wrong and your what you're saying isn't what you claim to be saying", but yeah, I'm not surprised by this response.

13 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

 Maybe if you were creating counter arguments instead of manipulating them instead, things may have progressed differently.

That's exactly what I was doing before you came in to tell me I'm wrong without counter arguments. Actually, I continued to create actual debates with examples to my point, which you've just repeatedly ignored, to this most recent post, and solely focus on parts of my post you can attack. Again, can't say I'm surprised by this response.

13 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

The zones are fairly linear.

I spent the past page repeatedly explaining how World 2 zones are NOT linear at all, ever since 2016. They're only linear if you exclusively use the shortest possible path. Which, by definition, is not a linear zone - just a series of repeated playthroughs using the same path.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I spent the past page repeatedly explaining how World 2 zones are NOT linear at all, ever since 2016. They're only linear if you exclusively use the shortest possible path. Which, by definition, is not a linear zone - just a series of repeated playthroughs using the same path.

Do you know what linear means?  By what you seem to be implying, Mario Kart courses would be would be considered “not linear” if they have one or more shortcuts. “Not linear at all” means that it would fall at the absolute other end of the spectrum meaning completely nonlinear as how could it be anything but that if it completely lack linearity. I guess the zones are open world…

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Do you know what linear means?  By what you seem to be implying, Mario Kart courses would be would be considered “not linear” if they have one or more shortcuts. “Not linear at all” means that it would fall at the absolute other end of the spectrum meaning completely nonlinear as how could it be anything but that if it completely lack linearity. I guess the zones are open world…

You're nitpicking semantics again... Discussions are impossible with those who do that. I'm pretty sure anyone would know what exactly I meant.

But for the hell of it: linear means one path from start to end. Non-linear can be either multiple choice paths or looping paths that revisit places. So the existence of alternate paths does, by definition, make it non-linear. Not all non-linear gameplay is open world - open world is basically an extreme of non-linear gameplay. So, once again, you're hyperbolic in your semantics. Or you believe the marketing hype that AAA companies like to sell about open world gameplay. If so, I hope you've remained oblivious to NFTs.

Heck, even ignoring the added path, technically World 2 Zone 3 is non-linear because there are multiple moments where you can backtrack by going within that starter mountain, opening the mouths to access prior spots as shortcuts for restarting (e.g., there are 3 or so ways to/from the racoon treestump, and you end up looping back to the checkpoint where the tribulation cloud is). Glitched paths add onto the non-linearness of the individual levels, by offering alternative routes, or like W2Z3 again, making a backtrack to open a shortcut.

And you still ignore even one of my original statements. So, y'know, cool.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're nitpicking semantics again... Discussions are impossible with those who do that. I'm pretty sure anyone would know what exactly I meant.

But for the hell of it: linear means one path from start to end. Non-linear can be either multiple choice paths or looping paths that revisit places. So the existence of alternate paths does, by definition, make it non-linear. Not all non-linear gameplay is open world - open world is basically an extreme of non-linear gameplay. So, once again, you're hyperbolic in your semantics. Or you believe the marketing hype that AAA companies like to sell about open world gameplay. If so, I hope you've remained oblivious to NFTs.

Heck, even ignoring the added path, technically World 2 Zone 3 is non-linear because there are multiple moments where you can backtrack by going within that starter mountain, opening the mouths to access prior spots as shortcuts for restarting (e.g., there are 3 or so ways to/from the racoon treestump, and you end up looping back to the checkpoint where the tribulation cloud is). Glitched paths add onto the non-linearness of the individual levels, by offering alternative routes, or like W2Z3 again, making a backtrack to open a shortcut.

And you still ignore even one of my original statements. So, y'know, cool.

The semantics card again.  I stated that the zones were fairly non-linear with the usage of fairly being because of the shortcuts.  You countered this by saying that the maps are "NOT linear at all".  Since you countered by statement that they were 'fairly linear' you must not accept that there are degrees of linearity; either its linear or it's not.  Based on your response, you feel that they are not.  It's just ridiculous that I state that the zones are fairly linear, you respond that they are not linear at all, I refute what you say, and then I'm somehow the one arguing semantics. This isn't the first time in the thread that you've done this either.

As for not responding to the other points of your post, I was essentially done with this thread or rather with the discussion with you.  I only responded because of that part of your posted that clearly showed exactly what you have been doing in this thread.  You use the semantics/victim cards whenever backed into a corner or you twist/manipulate arguments to suit yours.  At this point I've proven my point and I'm done but feel free to continue to do the same in response to this post. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by mythical.6315

[mythical.6315]

To bring this back to topic, one other concern that I had was regarding the checkpoints.  If this allows the level to be completed, and everyone to get credit, there could be a potential issue way later when more zones get added that use the new checkpoint format.  Someone could farm bauble bubbles with their alts and then use them to purchase items that are tradeable.  One example being the trader's generation one chest that sells for around 18G.  Just something to consider when using that kind of checkpoint in the future.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil.

Regards.

[ElforTheLandStander.7052]

I like the test zone. It's fun to thoroughly explore once, and can be speed-run easily and quickly after that. The jump through the waterfall at the start of the path for the second chest is wildly inconsistent, though, and could use some love. I aim for the exact same spot and every time where I know it is, and still just fall down the waterfall most of the time.

The third path chest is, as many have expressed, a nightmare. If any of the stuff in the test world is planning to be used for an eventual world 3 proper, that scaffolding JP over the yawning abyss feels like the kind of thing that should guard the next Moto's Breath/Finger upgrade. Something big and important. Hardly worth all that effort just for the achievement.

Maybe a song of pacification, that makes enemies within a certain radius nonhostile for a while unless attacked? Or a song of treasure hunting that shows X's for dig spots the way the Song of Secrets does bombable walls?

That being said, the wild oozes are a good fit for the cave setting, and should stay as enemies in World 3 proper, while the Spiders and Monkeys feel more placeholder-y. Maybe enemy choya? They could behave similarly to monkeys, one color throws rocks and another color runs in for melee, with a pickaxe or something.

Item upgrades are the thing I want most out of World 3, especially another bauble bag, maybe taking us up to 1,000? 750 is a frustrating cap that requires you to leave and cash out a lot if you're grabbing chests and dig spots as you go through rather than just speedrunning.

If we do another scavenger hunt upgrade like for the Mega Bomb and Boomerang, I'm assuming at this point the Slingshot would be the next thing to get an upgrade. Turning it into a Bow? Where it can fire a regular shot or a secondary one that's just higher-damage, or a spreadshot or something.

As for a weapon upgrade, I don't know what would be a good choice. Something that's a midpoint between a nunchuk and a sword, which I think everyone assumes would be the final weapon upgrade in world 4 someday if we ever get there. Pickaxe or mace, maybe?

 

Edit: Oh, and how could I forget, a new flute song? Seeing as how there are only so many combinations of notes, I know we shouldn't expect a song per level like we got in world 2, but one hidden one per world for 3 and 4 would be cool.

Edited April 10, 2023 by ElforTheLandStander.7052

[Randulf.7614]

Absolutely no to increasing the difficulty. Yes it’s easy, but the difficulty comes from finding the secrets or adding in a trib mode. This is the perfect length and difficulty otherwise. I don’t want to see a return to world two which is an absolute mess of design and far, far too long

I agree with konig on lighting and colour. That is also spot on

Edited April 12, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Bias.4306]

I found the area between the first and second checkpoints to be the most difficult part of the entire thing.

 

Maybe there should be a slight rework of that area, or the other areas should be brought up to be at that same difficulty?

[Pifil.5193]

I like it a lot, great length, good core difficulty, lots of scope for secrets off the main path. Glad to see they learned from the feedback over W2. Looking forward to seeing more in next year's SAB!

[Zaxares.5419]

Well, SAB is over for another year so time for feedback! 🙂 Like many others, I was very pleasantly surprised by the addition of W3Z1 this year. Hopefully we'll see more progress at a faster release cadence in years going forward!

First Impressions:

Overall I was very pleased by what I saw in Sparkling Pools. The overall feel and aesthetics match what we've come to expect from SAB, and the music still maintains that cute retro feel. I would have liked more to do in the actual level (like Bauble Collecting, Dig Chests, Secret Rooms etc.), but for now there's just enough to generate buzz about what's to come. (Like that collapsed passageway with the strange growls coming from behind it.)

A note of caution regarding the disappearing pillars though: they currently have quite a generous timer for how long they stay up, but I caution ANet to resist the temptation to use them as a means of "increasing challenge", whether in Normal or Trib mode. The trouble with mechanics like these is that they disproportionately affect high-ping players like those of us in SEA/OCX because the server always thinks we're 1-2s behind where our screen is showing us to be. This resulted in some truly frustrating things back when W2 first came out like getting knocked down in mid air while we're jumping off a disappearing waterspout (which uses a similar mechanic). ANet corrected this for us by essentially making the waterspouts stay up permanently. So now that we have a similar mechanic again with the disappearing rocks, this is just a reminder not to repeat the mistakes of the past again!

Stuff I Liked:

The thing that pleased me the most about 3-1 is that it was like a return to SAB's roots when it first came out. The level is short, but broad, meaning that for those who just want to speed through it as fast as possible, they can do so. But players who want to take their time and explore and hunt for stuff have plenty of room to be able to do so as well. I'm glad that ANet is keeping the big lesson from the World 2 fiasco in mind; bigger, longer and harder isn't necessarily the best approach, if you plan on creating content that you want the majority of players to do.

Things to Improve:

1. I'm not sure what was the reasoning behind giving the mobs more health, but I would like to see this reversed. It really messes with my muscle memory that enemies that used to take 2 hits to dispatch now take twice as long (especially when there's no commensurate increase in bauble rewards). A friend speculated that it's possible that these enemies are actually just placeholders for tougher enemies that haven't been finished yet, but if that's the case, I still would prefer the enemies to have their old health back in the meantime.
2. During my first run through the level I actually got lost a couple times. One of those pointing arrows showing the route to take (especially in the high jump down to the disappearing rock platform just before the 3rd checkpoint) to help guide players would not go amiss, I think.
3. Whoever designed the 3rd Red Bauble Chest is a sadist. 😛 It's fine for a Trib Mode challenge, but for Normal... A checkpoint or two in-between all those DIAS jumps would have been appreciated.
4. I don't think it's necessary to have the enemy oozes spawn during the fight against the boss, at least for Normal. Normal should be about learning and adapting to the boss cage's new attacks for each World (in this case, the super fast targeted attack). Adding in the oozes as an additional challenge for Trib Mode (maybe for all the Worlds?) can be considered though.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Zaxares.5419
Fixed some formatting