[PVE] Give alac to scourge and quickness to vindicator

[Serephen.3420]

I feel Anet shot themselves in the foot making vindicator a hybrid class when it should have been the pure dps focused class for rev instead. Otherwise you get threads like this.😅 

[mirage.8046]

No thanks, alacrity and quickness are overused answers and cannot reasonably be given to every spec. what's the point of every class being different when they end up all giving the same two boons? What's next, should reaper give everyone alacrity when using shouts?

[Nimon.7840]

Well rev already has quickness so I doubt this would ever happen.

With the profession update in June we will get quickness deadeye. 

 

Now there's only 3 professions left, that either give quickness or alac, but don't have the option for the other boon.

That's:

- warrior (quickness)

- ranger (alac)

- necro (quickness)

 

Imo all of the would need a major rework to be given the corresponding other boon.

Warrior and ranger have the problem, that slack and quickness are baseline. But from what we saw, specialisations should only be able to generate one of those boons for others.

So both warrior and ranger would need a rework, that ties that boon to a certain elite specialisation.

 

Now why do I think scourge would need a rework.

Imo at least transfusion would have to go. Alac + Perma rezzes would be a bit too strong.

But if you remove transfusion, I think you might have to give it some other means to either provide other boons like: better stability, and protection, or maybe give it some more ways to actually heal health.

[RenneBright.2473]

2 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I feel Anet shot themselves in the foot making vindicator a hybrid class when it should have been the pure dps focused class for rev instead. Otherwise you get threads like this.😅 

I mean it's "hybrid" but not in PvE, in WvW you can run it purely as DPS or support. The problem is that he only plays PvE as a "bad OTP Rev", wants Vindi to copy Herald's quick or Renegade's Alac while "lowering the healing", which would only encourage more others to pick up these two.

1 hour ago, mirage.8046 said:

No thanks, alacrity and quickness are overused answers and cannot reasonably be given to every spec. what's the point of every class being different when they end up all giving the same two boons? What's next, should reaper give everyone alacrity when using shouts?

No point rightfully. He admitted quite a few times that it wasn't about build diversity/competitivity but more to inflate his ego of "wanting to being able to play Vindi/Scourge boons in group content PvE and have fun with it because I neither like Herald or Druid/Tempest" etc. (assuming he could upkeep most of the boons as a Scourge to begin with because he doesn't seem to know it's not just about quick or alac). He duped his post from the Rev sub-section simply because he didn't like what 2 other users told him there before me: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/130048-to-make-vindicator-a-nice-healer-in-pve/#comment-1886455 

14 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Now why do I think scourge would need a rework.

Imo at least transfusion would have to go. Alac + Perma rezzes would be a bit too strong.

But if you remove transfusion, I think you might have to give it some other means to either provide other boons like: better stability, and protection, or maybe give it some more ways to actually heal health.

Druid can pretty much do the same as Scourge, albeit on a longer CD (S&R + S&R trait aren't as strong) and AoE fast res from Glyph of the Stars depends on the timing you go in CA, but you can't predict at 100% when 3-4 of your teammates will go down, assuming you're in a decent squad/party.
Other than that, assuming you give alac to Scourge, as a healer you'd still indeed face the same problem as a potential "heal Spectre" for other boons.

Edited April 24, 2023 by RenneBright.2473

[Serephen.3420]

1 minute ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

I mean it's "hybrid" but not in PvE, in WvW you can run it purely as DPS or support. The problem is that he only plays PvE as a "bad OTP Rev", wants Vindi to copy Herald's quick or Renegade's Alac while "lowering the healing", which would only encourage more others to pick up these two.

 

I suppose I am referring to the class concept and application of design, rather than its current usage in the meta. Many elite specs really need a clearer more specialised identity in order to faithfully fulfil their purpose.

But what I see more is everything being spread out further making each a class unto its own rather than a focused aspect of that class as it was originally intended to be. 

[RenneBright.2473]

1 minute ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I suppose I am referring to the class concept and application of design, rather than its current usage in the meta. Many elite specs really need a clearer more specialised identity in order to faithfully fulfil their purpose.

But what I see more is everything being spread out further making each a class unto its own rather than a focused aspect of that class as it was originally intended to be. 

That could be a flaw. But in this case specifically, the problem comes from the OP's thought process himself (i.e. on a whim).

[Dadnir.5038]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:17 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

It might be better if we had a third exclusive boon so each elite spec could bring something unique.

I think this ship sunk last year with the patch that reworked banners and spirits...

Even then, I do believe that stab and aegis already fill the spot of 3rd and 4th exclusive boons. It's especially true since very few professions provide them competitively despite how powerful these boons are in all gamemodes.

That said, I believe that the main issue of the game is that, while boons are powerful in all gamemodes, some other tools can see themselves effectively neutered based on the gamemode. Both boon hate and soft conditions tend to be useless against defiant foes (PvE) while their impact in competitive mode is substancial.

As the devs provide a balance budget to each profession in a way that things are (more or less) balanced in competitive modes, some professions effectively end up seeing themselves with a deficit of power budget when facing defiant foes in PvE. And that's where and why balance truly fail in GW2.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

20 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think this ship sunk last year with the patch that reworked banners and spirits...

Even then, I do believe that stab and aegis already fill the spot of 3rd and 4th exclusive boons. It's especially true since very few professions provide them competitively despite how powerful these boons are in all gamemodes.

That said, I believe that the main issue of the game is that, while boons are powerful in all gamemodes, some other tools can see themselves effectively neutered based on the gamemode. Both boon hate and soft conditions tend to be useless against defiant foes (PvE) while their impact in competitive mode is substancial.

As the devs provide a balance budget to each profession in a way that things are (more or less) balanced in competitive modes, some professions effectively end up seeing themselves with a deficit of power budget when facing defiant foes in PvE. And that's where and why balance truly fail in GW2.

I think part of the problem is how they've made boons "all-in-one". For example, if you want to help protect an ally, the Protection boon is all you get--a flat 33% (or a bit more, depending on class), that can't be stacked. So if someone brings full Protection, no one else can bring Protection.

 

This results in a severe homogenisation of classes over time as you don't ever need more than one of anything as the healer can usually bring almost all of it, except 25 Might which is usually filled in by the other support. You immediately get common roles from other games like "DPS who also helps allies avoid damage" completely ripped out, except in a very few cases of class-specific utility (like Bulwark Quickness Scrapper).

 

This game has many more classes than some other games I've played, yet far fewer roles to actually play.

 

We would've been alot better off if boons like Protection, Regeneration, Vigor, etc. were stacking in intensity, but despite how many times this was discussed and how duration-stacking boons are bad for the game as they result in a one-size-fits-all problem with regards to class diversity, that ship has also sailed it seems.

 

Its the same problem we had with conditions on enemies at game launch, only in reverse, and its also why boons are so absurdly powerful in the competitive modes.

Edited April 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Burnfall.9573]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:57 AM, Serephen.3420 said:

I suppose I am referring to the class concept and application of design, rather than its current usage in the meta. Many elite specs really need a clearer more specialised identity in order to faithfully fulfil their purpose.

But what I see more is everything being spread out further making each a class unto its own rather than a focused aspect of that class as it was originally intended to be. 

This.

I strongly believed that if Anet does not address this in May-June Balance....this will be the year of Guild Wars 2 spiral to its death

"We Are Not Free To Choose The Consequences Of Our Actions"

I will already be gone before that happen

Edited April 28, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

this will be the year of Guild Wars 2 spiral to its death

I've read this so many time over the last 10 years... Let's be fair, GW2 have already lasted longer than many other online games and I do believe that it can still last a few more years.

[Batalix.2873]

After letting this sit a bit, I am for alac Scourge.

 

Anything to pull Scourge away from DPS and further into support is good in my book.