Hero Points are outdated

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

It takes a couple hours to unlock an elite spec.

If your play rate is an hour per year, this may not be your game.

You mean with a Hero train? What about your first character ever created in GW2 without a Hero Train? Still only 2 hours after hitting level 80?

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

You mean with a Hero train? What about your first character ever created in GW2 without a Hero Train? Still only 2 hours after hitting level 80?

A hero train is not soemthing to be dismissed though. It's a multiplayer game and working together to progress is exactly the founding principle of GW2.

It may take a few weeks for most players starting out to get their additional elite, but these aren't new classes, just extra options for the main class. And a couple of weeks isn't really a negative thing in a mmo

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

A hero train is not soemthing to be dismissed though. It's a multiplayer game and working together to progress is exactly the founding principle of GW2.

It may take a few weeks for most players starting out to get their additional elite, but these aren't new classes, just extra options for the main class. And a couple of weeks isn't really a negative thing in a mmo

So there is no power advantage of elite specs over not ever unlocking an elite spec? SO if you decide to stay a core necro and not grind HP,  you will deal the same DPS or have the same survivability as an elite spec would?

[Gibson.4036]

13 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

You mean with a Hero train? What about your first character ever created in GW2 without a Hero Train? Still only 2 hours after hitting level 80?

No hero train.

I did it in PoF, solo, on core thief, with the exception of when I chanced upon other players already doing some. With access to EoD you can also do it quickly solo.

All of the first especs I've done for each character have been solo. It's easier than trying to find a HP train when you need one. All my HP train experience has been to unlock further specs, and mostly just to zone complete HoT.

There are even guides on how to almost get to 250 solo in HoT.

It'd definitely take longer if you refuse to use guides or overlays, but at that point you're choosing the journey of discovery, and extra time is a feature, not a problem.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Randulf.7614]

1 minute ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So there is no power advantage of elite specs over not ever unlocking an elite spec? SO if you decide to stay a core necro and not grind HP,  you will deal the same DPS or have the same survivability as an elite spec would?

DIdnt say there wasn't a power advantage. I said extra options for your class. I am well aware of the power creep the poor balance system continues to allow in to the game. Having said that, core class is still playable for almost everything in the game, excepting maybe the higher challenges. But, at those points, players will have exeperience in obtaining the traits, skills, gear they need over time anyway.

Ultimately, the hero point system is fine, it works and rewards players who have spent time across other areas of the game prior. Newer players will require additional time to unlock, but the way it is set up means they will access everthing as a natural part of playing the game without excessive time gating 

[Gibson.4036]

5 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So there is no power advantage of elite specs over not ever unlocking an elite spec? SO if you decide to stay a core necro and not grind HP,  you will deal the same DPS or have the same survivability as an elite spec would?

You're not going to do as much or have the same survivablity without waystations, bot rez, jade offensive/defensive protocols, gliding stealth, mount access, nor mount stealth, whatever that downstate AoE is called, either. Do you have a problem taking time to earn these as well?

I'm not sure why you think level 80 should mean absolute maximum power.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[costepj.5120]

I also have a stockpile of about 12000 proofs/Testimonies of Heroics so I think I'm good for a few more expansions 🙂

[Gravitron.7982]

12 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

DIdnt say there wasn't a power advantage. I said extra options for your class. I am well aware of the power creep the poor balance system continues to allow in to the game. Having said that, core class is still playable for almost everything in the game, excepting maybe the higher challenges. But, at those points, players will have exeperience in obtaining the traits, skills, gear they need over time anyway.

Ultimately, the hero point system is fine, it works and rewards players who have spent time across other areas of the game prior. Newer players will require additional time to unlock, but the way it is set up means they will access everthing as a natural part of playing the game without excessive time gating 

Yeah but if the elite specs are more powerful, then the progression there is vertical which implies that elite specs aren't "extra options", they are the clearly defined path the game wants you to take. Let's just be honest about this for a minute and call it how it is. The game is now currently designed around elite specs (not core specs) so the game assumes that the end of the grind when it comes to a player leveling, is that they settle on an elite spec.

So to say that elite specs are "just a side grade option" is kind of dishonest I think, especially to new players who hit level 80 and think they are done, when they are not, they still have 250 HP more to go.

[vares.8457]

50 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

I guess I can mark on my calender 2 or 3 years from now "Day you'll finish unlocking the actual class you want to play.."....hmm maybe someday right?

What? That’s nonsense. It’s super easy and fast to get enough hero points to unlock all elite specs. 

[Randulf.7614]

1 minute ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Yeah but if the elite specs are more powerful, then the progression there is vertical which implies that elite specs aren't "extra options", they are the clearly defined path the game wants you to take. Let's just be honest about this for a minute and call it how it is. The game is now currently designed around elite specs (not core specs) so the game assumes that the end of the grind when it comes to a player leveling, is that they settle on an elite spec.

So to say that elite specs are "just a side grade option" is kind of dishonest I think, especially to new players who hit level 80 and think they are done, when they are not, they still have 250 HP more to go.

I didn't say side option. I said extra options. Nothing dishonest is being said here

I agree that they have introduced a rather low level version of vertical progression due to poor design, but at the same time, giving newer players a target to work for over a very short period of time, is a very positive and laudable thing to have in an mmo. Once a player gets to level 80, getting the first elite they have access to is not a chore and there are no time gates

There is no issue in how hero points are gained nor in their speed in acquirement. None whatsoever. Yes, there is an issue in my mind about power creep, but that is entirely seperate to this.

[Gravitron.7982]

4 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I didn't say side option. I said extra options. Nothing dishonest is being said here

I agree that they have introduced a rather low level version of vertical progression due to poor design, but at the same time, giving newer players a target to work for over a very short period of time, is a very positive and laudable thing to have in an mmo. Once a player gets to level 80, getting the first elite they have access to is not a chore and there are no time gates

There is no issue in how hero points are gained nor in their speed in acquirement. None whatsoever. Yes, there is an issue in my mind about power creep, but that is entirely seperate to this.

I just can't agree with you there. Because having to wait to unlock something because it takes time to grind it, is literally a time gate. That's like the literal definition of what a time gate is. Otherwise, once a player hit level 80, a window would immediately pop up and ask them what elite spec they want to unlock is, then they click it, then it unlocks instantly. But that's not what happens.

And even if you don't find something to be a "chore", other people might. I don't see how you can define what is or isn't a chore for other people. You may not view this a s a chore, other people clearly do.

Edited April 24, 2023 by entrailsgalore.4150

[Randulf.7614]

2 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

I just can't agree with you there. Because having to wait to unlock something because it takes time to grind it, is literally a time gate. That's like the literal definition of what a time gate is. Otherwise, once a player hit level 80, a window would immediately pop up and ask them what elite spec they want to unlock is, then they click it, then it unlocks instantly. But that's not what happens.

And even if you don't find something to be a "chore", other people might. I don't see how you can define what is or isn't a chore for other people. You may not view this a s a chore, other people clearly do.

No a time gate means you have to wait a specified amount of time. A time gate in this case would be saying you could only gain one hero point a day. There is not time gate here because you are fully in control of the acquisition

You are welcome to view it is a chore, but I'm welcome not to define it as one as well. Working for things over time is what mmos are about. It's about balancing that acquisitojn time and hero points are well balanced in those terms as far as I am concerned

Edited April 24, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Gravitron.7982]

3 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

No a time gate means you have to wait a specified amount of time. A time gate in this case would be saying you could only gain one hero point a day. There is not time gate here because you are fully in control of the acquisition

You are welcome to view it is a chore, but I'm welcome not to define it as one as well. Working for things over time is what mmos are about. It's about balancing that acquisitojn time and hero points are well balanced in those terms as far as I am concerned

And you view them as well balanced because you view having an elite specialization as an advantage over not having one correct? Which is why you think it should be locked behind a grind?

[Randulf.7614]

6 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

And you view them as well balanced because you view having an elite specialization as an advantage over not having one correct? Which is why you think it should be locked behind a grind?

It isnt locked behind any sort of grind, so I cant answer that. It wasn't a grind when they first introduced the system of elites (also remember core traits are behind skill points since release, training players on the system pre-80) and there's no grind now either. Grind would be doing the same thing over and over. This is just playing the game at specific map points and doing the activity there a single time

Edited April 24, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Val.7826]

I absolutely disagree with the topic, navigate the map and defeating enemies is a main content, and hero points usually gives you another reason to do that; also, it is not mandatory to do every HP to achieve the E-Spec you want since there are way more HP around then required, if you are not interested in map completition in your run, just skip some of them. If you're struggling to do Balthazar's Avatar HP in Auric Basin or the Mushroom Queen in Tangled Depths, you can just ask for help and wait a bit, people will come for shure depending on the moment, or else you can try test yourself with a hard fight.

New players can find overwelming navigate expansion maps, especially HoT, but it is part of the fun, when I started this game years ago and went to HoT for the first time, with no mounts at all, I experienced my favourite time in GW2, and the challenge to obtain all HP and map completition, without any guide, was really motivating.

What I dislike instead is the lack of fantasy EoD HP (and mastery points) have; they should have some more bosses or challenges to do to achieve 'em, instead it seems A-Net is gradually reducing the difficulty of the game patch by patch. Sadly it's also due to the deus-ex-machina Skyscale mount that makes really kitten easy and boring to navigate the map, well, you can arbitrarily chose to not use it, but... I think that since the existence of the Skyscale, they should have put more challenging HP in EoD maps, also because most of players that go in those maps don't really need HP anymore, so why not making them more interesting to achieve? Just for sake of fun, you know.

[Hsanrb.1570]

Are elite specializations better than core... in most cases sure, but is your character unusuable without one? Definitely not. Is it vertical progression? Well considering 1) There are more hero points than places to use them 2) If you know what class you want to play finding 250/300 or whatever the number is to finish one elite spec and then gradually picking the others up in case of shouldn't be too hard (considering you have to own expansions to use them iirc) 3) I believe you can pick whatever specs you want for sPvP, so you have an alternative way if playing the game to unlock them is too much for you.

What's next, mastery tracks are outdated and give vertical progression because you have to play the game to get them? Should someone with 455 mastery ranks be brought down to a level in which someone with their first 80 on a fresh account be rewarded? I mean I'd love to be able to disable or enable mastery tracks so if my friends start the game and ride the raptor I'm not flying 100 miles past them because I played PoF. Or if someone wants a proof of concept that you can do all the beetle races in core tyria without the masteries... how do I say "see I had no masteries" when I have icons in my hotbar that you don't have.

[Gravitron.7982]

32 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It isnt locked behind any sort of grind, so I cant answer that. It wasn't a grind when they first introduced the system of elites (also remember core traits are behind skill points since release, training players on the system pre-80) and there's no grind now either. Grind would be doing the same thing over and over. This is just playing the game at specific map points and doing the activity there a single time

It's not something instantly available to new players. You have to run around the maps and either commune with HP nodes, or defeat the boss that spawns. That's most certainly a grind. You might personally view it as a "easy" grind, but it's a grind nonetheless.

[Gravitron.7982]

12 minutes ago, Hsanrb.1570 said:

Are elite specializations better than core... in most cases sure, but is your character unusuable without one? Definitely not. Is it vertical progression? Well considering 1) There are more hero points than places to use them 2) If you know what class you want to play finding 250/300 or whatever the number is to finish one elite spec and then gradually picking the others up in case of shouldn't be too hard (considering you have to own expansions to use them iirc) 3) I believe you can pick whatever specs you want for sPvP, so you have an alternative way if playing the game to unlock them is too much for you.

What's next, mastery tracks are outdated and give vertical progression because you have to play the game to get them? Should someone with 455 mastery ranks be brought down to a level in which someone with their first 80 on a fresh account be rewarded? I mean I'd love to be able to disable or enable mastery tracks so if my friends start the game and ride the raptor I'm not flying 100 miles past them because I played PoF. Or if someone wants a proof of concept that you can do all the beetle races in core tyria without the masteries... how do I say "see I had no masteries" when I have icons in my hotbar that you don't have.

Which cases would running a core spec be better than running an elite spec?

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

It's not something instantly available to new players. You have to run around the maps and either commune with HP nodes, or defeat the boss that spawns. That's most certainly a grind. You might personally view it as a "easy" grind, but it's a grind nonetheless.

That is not what a grind is. Grind would be having to do the exact same hero point 10x to unlock it and then doing it for everything.

If having to play the game naturally and doing one activity one time is a grind, then everything in the game is a grind. From vistas, to story, to exploring maps.

No, absolutely no grind in hero points - easy or otherwise

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

It's not something instantly available to new players. You have to run around the maps and either commune with HP nodes, or defeat the boss that spawns. That's most certainly a grind. You might personally view it as a "easy" grind, but it's a grind nonetheless.

By your definition all playing the game is "grind". That's a meaningless definition. "Grind" means doing the same thing repeatedly. For example, because you can do so many different things to get experience, GW2 is not considered a game where you "grind" for experience. In other games, people will sit in area repeatedly killing the same mobs to level up. That would be a "grind".

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

That is not what a grind is. Grind would be having to do the exact same hero point 10x to unlock it and then doing it for everything.

If having to play the game naturally and doing one activity one time is a grind, then everything in the game is a grind. From vistas, to story, to exploring maps.

No, absolutely no grind in hero points - easy or otherwise

 

 

That is still a grind lol. You're saying that someone who works the same job every day doing the same thing is grinding,  but someone who works for themself and has like 4 different businesses doing 4 different things isn't actually grinding? That makes zero sense lol

[Gravitron.7982]

3 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

By your definition all playing the game is "grind". That's a meaningless definition. "Grind" means doing the same thing repeatedly. For example, because you can do so many different things to get experience, GW2 is not considered a game where you "grind" for experience. In other games, people will sit in area repeatedly killing the same mobs to level up. That would be a "grind".

Going to each HP node one after the other to collect a hero point from them IS doing the same thing repeatedly.

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

That is still a grind lol. You're saying that someone who works the same job every day doing the same thing is grinding,  but someone who works for themself and has like 4 different businesses doing 4 different things isn't actually grinding? That makes zero sense lol

No never said any of that. I'm guessing you misquoted someone else there. Certainly that comparison doesn't relate to hero point acquistion.

There is no grind at all in hero point acquistion

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

And I'm sure it took you awhile to get that many HP's. I guess I can mark on my calender 2 or 3 years from now "Day you'll finish unlocking the actual class you want to play.."....hmm maybe someday right?

Imagine having to spend a couple of hours to unlock an entirely new way to play your character.   

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Randulf.7614 said:

No never said any of that. I'm guessing you misquoted someone else there. Certainly that comparison doesn't relate to hero point acquistion.

There is no grind at all in hero point acquistion

You don't have to kill NPC's that spawn?