apharma.3741 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 21 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said: "Cele has no bearing in fights where nobody runs cele". That's your argument? Really? I think what he's saying is that it's not exclusively cele stats that causes a loss. Let's take harbinger as an example, whether they run cele or trailblazer they would flat out win certain match ups due to the way harbinger and it's trait interactions are balanced and how it counters certain builds. Roaming isn't a mess just because of cele, it's also a mess because of the incompetence from ANet in terms of balancing and how elite specs and many newer additions often end up massively bloated. Some examples: Power willbender extreme mobility, damage and almost entire condition immunity, teleport on you, try to delete you in 1s, then run away where almost no-one can catch. Power soulbeasts and it's disgusting damage from a range nothing can deal with adding into fights. Tempest or ventari bubble shutting down any and all projectiles for prolonged periods, rip grenades. Condi druid, which has lost some damage and annoyance since Ancient Seeds was removed it's still one of those "you can't die if you're good" builds that can beat a lot of builds. Also while I respect people who duel are usually very good at the game duels are not what 99% of WvW is like, even excluding zerging duelling bears little similarity to normal roaming. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 5 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said: I know it's a hard concept to grasp for you and most folks in this thread whose wvw experience consists mostly of random dodging across borders on their condi builds and fighting random people on pve/zerg builds but there are people in this game with 10k+ hours of mainly dueling and they tend to know each other. When you duel the same person over and over on different builds and specs over years you can assess their skill and what impact various changes have. Oh no, how dare I anger the duelers... Dueling accomplishes what exactly? I know it's a hard concept for you and possibly other folks in this thread, but no one cares about dueling. Least of all anet. If they did, they would actually turn Obsidian Sanctum into a proper arena instead of having duelers take up random cap space at the southern regions of Alpine. Anyway, can cele be prominent there? Probably, as it allows you to create an effective build very quickly--which is why I called it 'low intensity'. It's like rifle mech was in sPvP earlier this year, super powerful at g1 and below, but g2 lost efficacy, and at g3 and up you never saw them as it is easy to counter. Cele is kinda the same way, if your 'duel bro' runs it and you beat them before, you should beat them now. If you don't and you blame the stat combination alone, that's again, like blaming your keyboard/controller for a loss. 1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said: I think what he's saying is that it's not exclusively cele stats that causes a loss. Let's take harbinger as an example, whether they run cele or trailblazer they would flat out win certain match ups due to the way harbinger and it's trait interactions are balanced and how it counters certain builds. Yeah, that's essentially what I am getting at. It's also what some can't seem to grasp--balance is more than just a stat combination. 4 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schloumou.3982 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: Dueling accomplishes what exactly? , ...but no one cares about dueling. As i said it creates a fairly homogeneous space to test the impact of builds, stats, traits etc. on the outcome of fights what you claimed to be impossible. 8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: Cele is kinda the same way, if your 'duel bro' runs it and you beat them before, you should beat them now. If you don't and you blame the stat combination alone, that's again, like blaming your keyboard/controller for a loss. It's absoIutely fine if you think dueling/structured small scale is a waste of time and map space, to each their own. But i don't understand what you base your opinion on so confidently in that topic when you clearly have zero practical knowledge in that regard. 8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: Anyway, can cele be prominent there? Probably, as it allows you to create an effective build very quickly--which is why I called it 'low intensity'. It's like rifle mech was in sPvP earlier this year, super powerful at g1 and below, but g2 lost efficacy, and at g3 and up you never saw them as it is easy to counter. Im sorry but to think cele would lose viability in higher levels of play just shows your lack of experience there. Edited July 16, 2023 by schloumou.3982 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 36 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said: It's absoIutely fine if you think dueling/structured small scale is a waste of time and map space, to each their own. But i don't understand what you base your opinion on so confidently in that topic when you clearly have zero practical knowledge in that regard. How do you come to the conclusion that I have no knowledge of dueling? I don't want to link more videos as it'll turn into an advertisement (as I only linked the one to show my stance); but I have plenty of duel footage--I just don't do it often as I think it is a waste of time. I'd rather actually roam and then find fights while getting participation instead of standing around south sentry for hours re-flipping it every so often to keep pips up. There's not much more I can say here without going in circles. Cele exists as a low intensity way to make effective builds, and at a risk of sounding too snarky, overcoming it is more 'git gud' than anything. But if I'm wrong, can someone make a cele core rev video dominating people or something? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: Dueling accomplishes what exactly? 49 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: -I just don't do it often as I think it is a waste of time. You just really want to make all your points completly irrelevant dont you ? Maybe - just maybe listen to experienced players when it comes to this kind of stuff. But I get it its hard to survive the so called "one-shot" builds when you cant find your dodge key :c 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackz.5278 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Anet should take actions like it did in pvp mode. remove the celestial stat completely. It should be noted that in the past there was a celestial stat in pvp mode but they completely eliminated it because even though they made it nerfed to balance it, they couldn't fix how broken the stat was it. It should be noted that the celestial stat in pvp was reduced by 150-200 points to adapt to the other amulets (berserker, assassin, demolisher, etc.), but it was all useless and they ended up eliminating it. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuggetScout.3782 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 3:27 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said: (raises eyebrow)... Soooo...not ONE instance of warrior on there. That's very telling. Because if celestial is soooo overpowered, then the worst boon-giver in the game (warrior) should also be able to roll over anything right?... It's not celestial that's the issue. Nobody complained about celestial before classes started getting reworked to fart boons like they ate rice and beans.. Cele spellbreaker does in fact... 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Stick to points, examples, numbers and details. Being a kitten to other forum posters doesn't help make points and will not get a point across. Stick to the details if you want to provide info on why something should be changed. 2 cents. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Nefras.7314 said: You just really want to make all your points completly irrelevant dont you ? Maybe - just maybe listen to experienced players when it comes to this kind of stuff. But I get it its hard to survive the so called "one-shot" builds when you cant find your dodge key :c How is what you quoted from me contradictory? I think dueling is a waste of time so I don't do it often...is this clearer for you? Also, who really cares what my duel preferences are--stick to the topic about cele 😂. Edited July 16, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Crackz.5278 said: Anet should take actions like it did in pvp mode. remove the celestial stat completely. It should be noted that in the past there was a celestial stat in pvp mode but they completely eliminated it because even though they made it nerfed to balance it, they couldn't fix how broken the stat was it. It should be noted that the celestial stat in pvp was reduced by 150-200 points to adapt to the other amulets (berserker, assassin, demolisher, etc.), but it was all useless and they ended up eliminating it. Mind sharing what else was removed from sPvP and the why to complete the point? Else you leave that as a partial point. Mind not sharing the rest of the details for players not around at the time? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, apharma.3741 said: I think what he's saying is that it's not exclusively cele stats that causes a loss. Nobody said that "cele is the only cause of a loss in all cases". 16 hours ago, apharma.3741 said: Roaming isn't a mess just because of cele, Nobody said cele is the only problem. 5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: How do you come to the conclusion that I have no knowledge of dueling? I don't want to link more videos as it'll turn into an advertisement (as I only linked the one to show my stance); but I have plenty of duel footage--I just don't do it often as I think it is a waste of time. I'd rather actually roam and then find fights while getting participation instead of standing around south sentry for hours re-flipping it every so often to keep pips up. There's not much more I can say here without going in circles. Cele exists as a low intensity way to make effective builds, and at a risk of sounding too snarky, overcoming it is more 'git gud' than anything. But if I'm wrong, can someone make a cele core rev video dominating people or something? I thought we already came to the conclusion that cherry picked video clips don't mean much? It is absolutely possible to make a video of cele core rev dominating people. Does this mean core cele rev is good? No. Does this mean cele is not op? No. Edited July 16, 2023 by Zyreva.1078 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impling.4170 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 My favorite suggestion I have seen for nerfing Cele is removing the toughness from it. It would still be an incredibly strong stat set, but it would give it a more defined weakness. It would still have enough tankiness from the vitality, healing power, and concentration, but in terms of raw damage mitigation it would be at least a little squishier. One of the reasons I could actually see this happening is because of how it could benefit endgame PvE since toughness relates to tanking. ANet never balances with roaming or small-scale in mind, especially since changing a stat set would be a game-wide change, so it would have to make sense for PvE too. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Moderator.3419 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Hi Everyone, I'm locking this thread as it's run its course. Regards. 3 3 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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