Shouldn't we have another set of legendary armor available?

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

PvP and WvW are different game modes. Every game mode has a method for legendary armor. 

WvW is PvP in the same way Raids are PvE.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Yes you can change your build, but does OW have any challenging content where it would matter?

Legendary Armory matters in every single type of content (except from SPvP). Regardless of said content difficulty.

[vares.8457]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

WvW is PvP in the same way Raids are PvE.

More nonsense from you. Then why do you have a different gear and build in PvP and WvW? Why an extra Lobby and Interface for PvP and WvW? WvW and PvP are two separate game modes. Last time I checked you use the same gear in open world and raid and you access raids in open world. 
 

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Legendary Armory matters in every single type of content (except from SPvP). Regardless of said content difficulty.

It really doesn’t matter in open world. 

[vares.8457]

34 minutes ago, Nightcore.5621 said:

No. We have 1 for each game mode. No reason to have more than that. Also at this point they should stop maekin Legendary items and just make them skins to unlock for cheaper price. 

Exactly. We have now more than enough legendary items in every game mode. There is no need for more.
Creating an open world legendary armor for a player base that’s not interested in it would be a huge waste of time and resources. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by vares.8457

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Yes you can change your build, but does OW have any challenging content where it would matter? No.... Again if anet introduced us something like "veteran difficulty" for open world where everything becomes harder, then i would agree that having lege armors would be relevant. And for fashion wars i mean cmon is that the best and the only reason for them to add lege armor there...?  If the appearence is the problem, why wouldnt you ask for anet to rework it and get rid of transmutation shards alltogether instead of all this bickering

You think the only reason to change your build is because you're doing difficult content.  But I can change my build for other reasons.  I can change my build because I feel like running a different build, or because there's a balance patch. You assume people in the open world never use builds, but there are open world builds on meta battle.  Sometimes I like to try different ones. Legendary armor makes it easier to experiment.
 

Obviously you don't NEED to experiment, but some people like to. They solo open world champs, as an example. Or just want to do better in Dragon's End. At any rate, you saying  you don't need something doesn't mean someone doesn't want it or can't find a use for it. The ONLY reason to not add other ways to get legendary armor is because people with legendary armor want to keep in to themselves. Because PvP and WvW and not hard to get and you don't have to be good at either to play those modes and get legendary armor, so it's no longer a matter of only the skillful should get it.

It's a matter of people not wanting people to get it because they don't see the reasons why people want it. I wanted it before I strictly needed it. Now I have it, and I still think I'd have been happier and enjoyed my time in the game more if I had had another way to get it.

[vares.8457]

26 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The ONLY reason to not add other ways to get legendary armor is because people with legendary armor want to keep in to themselves.

It's a matter of people not wanting people to get it because they don't see the reasons why people want it.

This is just not true. If you want it do what is required to get it, just like everyone else. Why do you think you are better than others? 
Imagine you are running a 5km race. Are you then complaining that only you want to run 3km instead of the 5km like everyone else? 

Edited June 19, 2023 by vares.8457

[soul.9651]

6 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 The ONLY reason to not add other ways to get legendary armor is because people with legendary armor want to keep in to themselves. Because PvP and WvW and not hard to get and you don't have to be good at either to play those modes and get legendary armor, so it's no longer a matter of only the skillful should get it.

 

So people "want to keep it to themselfs" assuming rn its "hard to get", yet you mention how easily you can get armors in other game modes which then contradicts everything u were saying before...xd if its easy then just do wvw pvp.. to me the people who gatekeeps you from lege armor is you yourself not taking any easiest current way how you can get the armors..

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

Then why do you have a different gear and build in PvP and WvW?

Since WvW is PvP mode, you don't. You probably meant a difference between WvW and SPvP (the other PvP mode). In which case the answer would be that a different role creates a need for different build. Just like ZvZ and Roaming builds in WvW differ as well.

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

Why an extra Lobby and Interface for PvP and WvW? WvW and PvP are two separate game modes.

Why then there's a special lobby for Raids as well? And (to an even greater degree) for Fractals?

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

Last time I checked you use the same gear in open world and raid and you access raids in open world. 

In that way you use the same gear in aids and WvW. Does that mean Raids are WvW? (and see my previous note about Raid and Fractal lobbies).

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

It really doesn’t matter in open world. 

Most of the people claiming that builds don't matter in OW and that OW players should not be concerned about having to change them are the same people that in other threads cry about how OW players run in bad gear and don't change it when needed. I do remember you complaining about OW players in other threads as well. And mentioning that there are OW places where you need to care ebout builds (and that's good) in thread about DE.

A bit of consequence, please. If you think that it does not matter (and that's fine), then don't complain about it elsewhere. If you think it does matter (or think that it should matter), then don't try to propagate the exact opposite mentality in threads where your normal approach would conflict with the narrative you want to push on different issue.

Also, i have noticed that in one more thread (the one about new sci-fi looking armor set from Gyala), you mentioned how you think that Anet devs should ignore what individual players or small groups of them dislike and add stuff based on what would please a majority. Funny how in this thread however you are arguing purely from the point of view that benefit only a small minority of players.

 

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

10 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

So people "want to keep it to themselfs" assuming rn its "hard to get", yet you mention how easily you can get armors in other game modes which then contradicts everything u were saying before...xd if its easy then just do wvw pvp.. to me the people who gatekeeps you from lege armor is you yourself not taking any easiest current way how you can get the armors..

It contradicts NOTHING I've said before. I said it about a dozen times in different ways. 

I said that PvE armor is the ONLY legendary armor you have to jump through hoops to get.

I said that PvP armor was essentially a participation reward and that anyone could get it even if the lost every game.

I said that WvW armor is the same, you just have to keep participation up by doing anything. Blindly being carried by a tag. Taking camps and killing guards. It's not hard to keep particpation up.

But PvE legendary armor is only raids, and that does require a lot more effort, but not more time. The point is, most PvE'ers don't raid so you're asking PvE players to do stuff that PvP and WvW players aren't asked to do.

Critics of what I'm saying claim, well, but you don't need legendary armor for open world, but yet, it's more useful in open world than it is in SPVP where it doesn't even count for stats, you can't change stats with it in SPvP.  It literally had no use there.

It doesn't matter whether you personally believe you need it, it matters if people want it and want to work on it but don't want to play areas of the game FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME that they aren't interested in.

Trying to say that I can do somethijng  I dislike that's easy but will take my hours and hours of something I don't like sounds a lot of masochism to me.  You can get this thing you want, but you have to do stuff you don't like for a hundred hours. You give people the choice of logging in and suffering to get a reward, or not getting the reward and feeling disenfranchised.  It really is that simple.  I never felt right since legendary armor was introduced, since I had almost every legendary weapon, and all the trinkets except the rings, and the amulet until that was introduced.

You're saying here, casual PvE players that don't want to raid, you can have all the legendary gear playing your way except THIS. It'se not a good look whether you think it is or not.

[Vayne.8563]

23 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

This is just not true. If you want it do what is required to get it, just like everyone else. Why do you think you are better than others? 
Imagine you are running a 5km race. Are you then complaining that only you want to run 3km instead of the 5km like everyone else? 

No, I'm saying PvP players can do the same thing they always do and get it, so if you like PvP it's a freebie.

There's a 74 year old man in my guild who WvWs and never got legendary armor, but he had everything saved up he needed to get it when we discussed it. And he made all his legendary armor. He didn't even know it existed.  He's no prodigy. He just messed around. Changed servers and guilds all the time. No idea what he was doing until more recently but he already had all the tickets he needed to get the stuff he needed to make it. 

Seems to me there's an imbalanced there.  I'm saying WvW players that enjoy that content don't have to do anything special to get it. PvP players likewise and they can't even use legendary armor. 

But PvE players, if you happen to like that, raid, the least popular PvE content. 

Some would call that fair, but some would call it kitten.

[Krzysztof.5973]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It contradicts NOTHING I've said before. I said it about a dozen times in different ways. 

I said that PvE armor is the ONLY legendary armor you have to jump through hoops to get.

I said that PvP armor was essentially a participation reward and that anyone could get it even if the lost every game.

I said that WvW armor is the same, you just have to keep participation up by doing anything. Blindly being carried by a tag. Taking camps and killing guards. It's not hard to keep particpation up.

But PvE legendary armor is only raids, and that does require a lot more effort, but not more time. The point is, most PvE'ers don't raid so you're asking PvE players to do stuff that PvP and WvW players aren't asked to do.

Critics of what I'm saying claim, well, but you don't need legendary armor for open world, but yet, it's more useful in open world than it is in SPVP where it doesn't even count for stats, you can't change stats with it in SPvP.  It literally had no use there.

It doesn't matter whether you personally believe you need it, it matters if people want it and want to work on it but don't want to play areas of the game FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME that they aren't interested in.

Trying to say that I can do somethijng  I dislike that's easy but will take my hours and hours of something I don't like sounds a lot of masochism to me.  You can get this thing you want, but you have to do stuff you don't like for a hundred hours. You give people the choice of logging in and suffering to get a reward, or not getting the reward and feeling disenfranchised.  It really is that simple.  I never felt right since legendary armor was introduced, since I had almost every legendary weapon, and all the trinkets except the rings, and the amulet until that was introduced.

You're saying here, casual PvE players that don't want to raid, you can have all the legendary gear playing your way except THIS. It'se not a good look whether you think it is or not.

Legendary armors were created as an incentive, driving players to do different types of content. PvE armor has unique skins as a reward for raiding. Nobody needs to be pushed to do open world as it's most profitable source of gold. Anyone who wants to get this very specific armor set that takes less time but more effort has to do raids. 

Quote

"As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria." - Source

All you are arguing about is easy access for people who want those skins. Do you want to get legendary armor faster? Put some more effort. 

[soul.9651]

24 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

No, I'm saying PvP players can do the same thing they always do and get it, so if you like PvP it's a freebie.

There's a 74 year old man in my guild who WvWs and never got legendary armor, but he had everything saved up he needed to get it when we discussed it. And he made all his legendary armor. He didn't even know it existed.  He's no prodigy. He just messed around. Changed servers and guilds all the time. No idea what he was doing until more recently but he already had all the tickets he needed to get the stuff he needed to make it. 

Seems to me there's an imbalanced there.  I'm saying WvW players that enjoy that content don't have to do anything special to get it. PvP players likewise and they can't even use legendary armor. 

But PvE players, if you happen to like that, raid, the least popular PvE content. 

Some would call that fair, but some would call it kitten.

Ok but have you ever considered that legendary armors as a reward is also the insentive to play that "least popular content"? And you wanna take away that reward and give it almost for free in the game mode, which is according to you and every OW lege armor pro sayer, is the most popular game mode out there? So there would be an absolute 0 reasons to play that " the least popular PvE content" anyway? And why would ever anet make any more insentive to play the most popular content anyway while killing completely every single reason to play the instanced content?  This isnt OW only mmo you know

Edited June 19, 2023 by soul.9651

[vares.8457]

30 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Also, i have noticed that in one more thread (the one about new sci-fi looking armor set from Gyala), you mentioned how you think that Anet devs should ignore what individual players or small groups of them dislike and add stuff based on what would please a majority. Funny how in this thread however you are arguing purely from the point of view that benefit only a small minority of players.

Open World legendary armor would only please a very tiny minority of open world players. The open world casual community is not the right audience for legendary armor. It would be like giving alcohol to children. You wouldn’t do that, would you? 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Legendary armors were created as an incentive, driving players to do different types of content.

Yes, and that failed. Turns out, if players find a content distasteful enough, artificially propping that content up with incentives is useless. Anet, by trying to incentivize players to raid, failed to take into consideration the likes and dislikes of their own game community - which is a mortal sin of any game design. Besides, this kind of heavy handed incentives are never to a game's benefit. Shallow incentives that let players get acquainted with a content type, but do not require heavy engagement if said player turns out to not take a liking to it work way better, because their effectiveness is similar, but they do not create so much negative backlash, nor do they inflate participation numbers giving devs false ideas of what players might like more of in the future.

4 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

PvE armor has unique skins as a reward for raiding.

We're not talking about Envoy skin here, though. We're talking about a potential separate set.

4 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Nobody needs to be pushed to do open world as it's most profitable source of gold.

And? Giving OW players more goals still fulfills the primary game design goal - keeping players engaged and playing. And in the long run, it doesn't matter in which content specifically, as long as they will stay engaged and playing.

In short, giving players more stuff to do is always good. If it can be done, opening new content types for them is the best, of course, but it should not be done at the cost of enjoyment the player gets out of the game, because in the long run that causes the exact opposite effect of what devs should want to achieve.

4 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Anyone who wants to get this very specific armor set that takes less time but more effort has to do raids.

Again, we're not talking about access to that specific set. We're talking about PvE alternatives for the huge majority of this game's players that will not raid no matter how hard you will try to push them there. A fact that by now is very well known.

4 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

All you are arguing about is easy access for people who want those skins. Do you want to get legendary armor faster? Put some more effort. 

Again, we're not talking about skins. We're not talking about getting legendary armor faster either. We're talking about making a (new) legendary armor option that could potentially target a huge, so far excluded majority of this game's players.

[Krzysztof.5973]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We're talking about making a (new) legendary armor option that could potentially target a huge, so far excluded majority of this game's players.

So Anet has to waste time and resources to create 4th way of acquiring legendary armor because the terribly excluded majority is incapable of escorting dolyaks in WvW and because gazillion achievements and collections in PvE is not enough? 😥

[vares.8457]

24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We're talking about making a (new) legendary armor option that could potentially target a huge, so far excluded majority of this game's players.

No, we are talking about wasting resources and time making another legendary armor for an audience that isn’t interested in legendary armor in the first place. 
Considering the last year they really should focus on developing more and new content for everyone and not waste time on a small minority that feels excluded because it refuses to do what is required to get the armor. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by vares.8457

[Astralporing.1957]

18 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Open World legendary armor would only please a very tiny minority of open world players. The open world casual community is not the right audience for legendary armor.

So you say. And yet amount of players with at least one legendary weapon is double that of those with at least one legendary armor piece (and thrice that of those with at least one legendary set). It's also three times the amount of players that finished the second tier of Envoy collection. Hint - amount of players that finished that collection is also lower than the amount of players that finished Aurora II one.

Apparently, amount of players interested in legendary gear is bigger than amount of players interested in Raiding (with that second number inflated partially by players that wanted legendary armor but had no interest in Raids whatsoever). So, who exactly is that minority here?

[Astralporing.1957]

26 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

So Anet has to waste time and resources to create 4th way of acquiring legendary armor because the terribly excluded majority is incapable of escorting dolyaks in WvW and because gazillion achievements and collections in PvE is not enough? 😥

Not "incapable" but uninterested. And yes, it does mean exactly that Anet should consider it, because it would not be wasting resources. Not any more than creating Raids was (and probably less than that, even).

[soul.9651]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not "incapable" but uninterested. And yes, it does mean exactly that Anet should consider it, because it would not be wasting resources. Not any more than creating Raids was (and probably less than that, even).

Which just shows that if there was OW way, players would just abandon those game modes alltogether completely... since they are "uninterested". 

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, soul.9651 said:

Which just shows that if there was OW way, players would just abandon those game modes alltogether completely... since they are "uninterested". 

"If"? In what world do you live? Most of GW2 players already do not play those modes.

Also, if one reward is so impactful on those three content types that giving an alternate acquisition mode of it would cause players to abandon those modes in any significant amount, then perhaps the problem lies in those modes not being interesting enough in the first place. Although personally i doubt it, at least for WvW and SPvP. In case of WvW, Legendary armor had no visible impact on its popularity when it was introduced. SPvP is actually far more dead nowadays than it was before legendary armor was a thing - and people afking for that armor in ranked games were one of the reasons for this participation decrease.

[vares.8457]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

SPvP is actually far more dead nowadays than it was before legendary armor was a thing - and people afking for that armor in ranked games were one of the reasons for this participation decrease.

That’s actually a very good reason against open world legendary armor. Let’s not repeat the mistake. There are already now a lot of casuals just afking during meta events. Legendary armor would only increase that. 

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, vares.8457 said:

That’s actually a very good reason against open world legendary armor. Let’s not repeat the mistake. There are already now a lot of casuals just afking during meta events. Legendary armor would only increase that. 

No, it would not. Legendary armor in OW would not bring in players with completely different playstyle and expectations the way it happened in SPvP.  It would just keep OW players from negatively impacting other modes, where their playstyle would clash with those preferred by players native to those modes. Unless you think that the afkers would consist of hardcore players coming from Raids to get the OW armor the easy way, because they couldn't be bothered to run the content you claim they're still so interested in?

[soul.9651]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"If"? In what world do you live? Most of GW2 players already do not play those modes.

Also, if one reward is so impactful on those three content types that giving an alternate acquisition mode of it would cause players to abandon those modes in any significant amount, then perhaps the problem lies in those modes not being interesting enough in the first place. Although personally i doubt it, at least for WvW and SPvP. In case of WvW, Legendary armor had no visible impact on its popularity when it was introduced. SPvP is actually far more dead nowadays than it was before legendary armor was a thing - and people afking for that armor in ranked games were one of the reasons for this participation decrease.

And you pulling your knowledge about how dead everything is but OW from...? Im just glad you are not the dev honestly, the game would be dead for years if it was your way it would be without any other content but OW i bet :)..

Edited June 19, 2023 by soul.9651

[vares.8457]

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, it would not. Legendary armor in OW would not bring in players with completely different playstyle and expectations the way it happened in SPvP.  It would just keep OW players from negatively impacting other modes, where their playstyle would clash with those preferred by players native to those modes. Unless you think that the afkers would consist of hardcore players coming from Raids to get the OW armor the easy way, because they couldn't be bothered to run the content you claim they're still so interested in?

Legendary armor would motivate even more casuals to just afk during meta events. We already see this happening a lot during the Dragons End meta and other events. With legendary armor half the map would just afk. This shows again that an open world legendary armor would do more harm than good. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by vares.8457

[Cyninja.2954]

51 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Legendary armor would motivate even more casuals to just afk during meta events. We already see this happening a lot during the Dragons End meta. With legendary armor half the map would just afk. This shows again that an open world legendary armor would do more harm than good. 

This.

Any open world legendary armor introduced into the current ecosystem of how open world works would lead to exactly that: more afk.

Every reward increase to any open world contant has shown this to be true. It all ends up as:"maximize return, minimize investment" (and to be fair, this is not open world exclusive behavior) after a while.

As such there would need to be "new" open world content or activities necessary, or at the very least adaptation to the current participation system or reward approach necessary, beyond simply "be there, get reward".

Which eventually leads down the same road:

1. More developer resources needed

2. The designed legendary armor becomes inaccessible to some players 

3. It's practically impossible to simplify the WvW legendary armor engagement (and for all good legendary armor has done, if at all, that's exactly what it has lead to in WvW: tons of afk PvE players bored out lf their mind). The only benefit here is the addition of another braindead approach for the few players who are unwilling to afk in WvW

 

Now I personally don't mind any more. The developers are adding overall more grind left and right, ironcally making the game more and more grindy by the day (remember when full exotic was fine? Now it's full legendary or go home as goal). For all I care, let them add open world legendary armor. I can't wait to hear a new approach to the old "I don't want to do THIS type of content for my reward" complaints. Maybe they can add it as some minor expansion feature to make some bucks off of it.🤷‍♂️

Edited June 19, 2023 by Cyninja.2954