So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You literally are paying to offset nerfs from balance patches every time you get new gear or runes or sigils to modify your builds.

I have legendary setup, so no, i do not have to pay for that. Unless it's SPvP, in which case if rune/sigil i had to pay for got removed, i end up getting my gold back.

That's one of the main purposes why i have invested so much in legendaries - to not have to jump through hoops every time they go and change something. They've just invalidated that, though.

[vares.8457]

5 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I know i'm probably a minority.. But i never found horizontal progression to be all that fun here. Most of the time i just feel handicapped and geriatric due to being a more casual customer than a hardcore grinder..

Gw2 Gear grind is way more painful than any other standard level based MMO i played in my opinion.. The crafting grind is real, the loot drops are anemic in open world pve, the hardcore pvp and raiders get everything hand fed to them.. At least in standard mmos Pve levels and loot were fun to progress for myself.

This is just nonsense 

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Unless relics are made prohibitively expensive which I seriously doubt the bar will be so low that it's a non-issue. 

If relics were not meant to involve a serious cost and/or effort, they would have been a free feature, not a gear you have to obtain.

[vandrefalk.6823]

11 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

Do we know for certain what is going to happen to runes we already own?  Will they be vaporized?  Will we get a new rune without the 6th rune bonus?  Will we get a relic based on the 6th rune bonus?  Will we get both?  Will existing runes continue to function the way they do now but we can override the 6th rune bonus by equipping a relic?  I didn't see them specifying which of these would happen.

The way they have described it, it will function like this. "Superior Rune of the Trooper" as example here.

Current situation:

(1): +25 Vitality
(2): +35 Toughness
(3): +50 Vitality
(4): +65 Toughness
(5): +100 Vitality
(6): +125 Toughness; remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.

After Relics are introduced:

Superior Rune of the Trooper gives for 1-6 runes following stat bonuses:

(1): +25 Vitality
(2): +35 Toughness
(3): +50 Vitality
(4): +65 Toughness
(5): +100 Vitality
(6): +125 Toughness

Some relic will give the bonus effect

"remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill"

So runes will have bonus effects removed from them. And instead you will have a category of Relics which support all these bonus effects you can then choose from. So you are no longer bound to have this bonus effect with your 6 Superior Runes of the Trooper, you can instead for example take the bonus effect that previously existed on the Superior Rune of the Privateer and

"Shout "Yarr!" while in combat, summoning a parrot and granting Might might to allies. (Cooldown: 60 Seconds)"

But the observant ones will then also notice that lots of runes will probably disappear, and be reimbursed with their replacements probably. E.g., there will be no difference between Superior Rune of Fireworks and Superior Rune of the Surging since both will offer the same stat bonuses for runes 1 - 6, previously distinguished only by their set bonus effect.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Dondarrion.2748

[Nono.7963]

Quote

On 6/29/2023 at 1:40 AM, Doggie.3184 said:

I don't like the idea of having something I own taken away so I can refarm it. So if that's what's gonna happen I'll be sad.

 

yeah, ANET does not understand that a lot of people are playing GW2 and not WoW or FF14 for this reason. 
That's pretty sad, everytime they do something great, they also ruin it with a bad and unnecessary move no one asked for.

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If relics were not meant to involve a serious cost and/or effort, they would have been a free feature, not a gear you have to obtain.

...like the jade bot?

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...like the jade bot?

Yes. With the exception that jade bot did not take away anything from us, and statwise it offers only vitality, so can safely be ignorew with practically zero impact. Still, i was never fan of hidden gear progression in the form of (earlier) stat infusions, and now new stuff like jade bot.

Notice, btw, that jade bot implementation is extremely bad, and it's only it's near zero impact of tiers higher than the first on the game that makes it somewhat acceptable (even if still a bad design).

On the other hand, Relic change is way, way more invasive, and does take away stuff from us (before it gives it back, at a price).

Edited June 30, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. With the exception that jade bot did not take away anything from us, and statwise it offers only vitality, so can safely be ignorew with practically zero impact. Still, i was never fan of hidden gear progression in the form of (earlier) stat infusions, and now new stuff like jade bot.

Ah, so now that your point is refuted, everything else is clearly relevant, right?

There is a continent's worth of room between "free drop down menu of all items and free swap" and "prohibitively expensive grind for vertical progression and power creep omg doom".

[Ashantara.8731]

Two things:

1. Everyone will be affected, not just us owners of Legendary Runes. So don't feel overly entitled for a "full compensation".
2. Ask yourself this: If the Relic system had been in place since release, wouldn't you still have acquired 7 Legendary Runes?

I, too, hope that the new system will allow for an equivalent of Legendary Relics, so that we can have our fully customizable functionality back... But I don't feel "betrayed" in any way. It's a change, that's all.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Ah, so now that your point is refuted,

It wasn't.

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

There is a continent's worth of room between "free drop down menu of all items and free swap" and "prohibitively expensive grind for vertical progression and power creep omg doom".

Yes, there is. Compare the cost of Superior rune of the Ogre (1g22s/1g45s) versus the cost of Superior Rune of the Scholar (2g83s/3g40s). Multiply that by six, so 9g61s/11g70s. That's how much more is the Relic of the Scholar worth compared to Relic of the Ogre. And we don't know how much relic of the Ogre will be worth. Now, multiply that by each character with that runeset. Now, consider all other runes you might be using and calculate similarily. Then consider the runes that cannot be crafted or bought, but are obtained from specific content (i.e. mainstay of healers - Runes of the Monk). We know some of the relics might require grinding Reward Tracks, and Monks are the most likely candidate here.

All in all, for many people that are a bit more invested in this game it might require hours of grind and hundreds of gold just to get to the point they were at before this change. 

Yes, if Relics turn out to be much cheaper and much easier to acquire than that, a lot of stuff i have been talking about will disappear (albeit there better be a cheap legendary relic available for those with legendary runes, because one of the primary reasons people craft those is in order to not have to worry about keeping spare runes - and now relics - in inventory), but i seriously doubt that will be the case. If it was to be like that, Rubi would not be talking about compensation and thinking about finding a solution, but would flat out tell us "do not worry, what you will lose will be fast/easy/cheap to reacquire". No, what they want is to create a new grind, so i actually expect the costs/effort to end up even higher than what i mentioned above.

You might be a "glass half full" kind od of player, but i am one that has noticed that in all previous cases where i thought that glass will be half empty, the amount of water ended up actually even lower than that.

[Astralporing.1957]

19 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

2. Ask yourself this: If the Relic system had been in place since release, wouldn't you still have acquired 7 Legendary Runes?

No. I'd possibly craft a Legendary Relic, but runes would be far, far lower on my list of to do things in such a case.

[vandrefalk.6823]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. I'd possibly craft a Legendary Relic, but runes would be far, far lower on my list of to do things in such a case.

That just doesn't make sense.

I for one would've made 6 legendary runes and 1 legendary relic.

[difens.1326]

The only thing that makes my trapper DH WvW build working is 6th bonus on the Trapper rune. So upon launch I'll lose that, the build will be rendered unplayable and I'll have to do God knows how much grind/pay how much gold to TP barons to restore it back? And I'm not talking restore performance but to make it work at all...
And they will graciously give one relic box for the entire account? Oh, that's sweet ANET. I knew I could count on you.

[The Boz.2038]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It wasn't.

You said, basically, any new feature will either be a huge grind or a freebie. I provided recent, direct, clear examples of the contrary. So... Yeah, I'd say "refuted" is accurate here.

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, there is. Compare the cost of Superior rune of the Ogre (1g22s/1g45s) versus the cost of Superior Rune of the Scholar (2g83s/3g40s). Multiply that by six, so 9g61s/11g70s. That's how much more is the Relic of the Scholar worth compared to Relic of the Ogre. And we don't know how much relic of the Ogre will be worth

Huh? What?
What's the point of this entire diatribe? You pretending to have an argument here, for the sake of the audience?

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

All in all, for many people that are a bit more invested in this game it might require hours of grind and hundreds of gold just to get to the point they were at before this change. 

It was stated that everyone gets a choice box. Wasn't stated if it was one per account or one per character or one per build or whatever, in true "ANet can't communicate" fashion, but it was said that it is going to be there.

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, if Relics turn out to be much cheaper and much easier to acquire than that

Than what? Twenty gold worth of Ogre runes? A completed reward track (what?)?

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If it was to be like that, Rubi would not be talking about compensation and thinking about finding a solution, but would flat out tell us "do not worry, what you will lose will be fast/easy/cheap to reacquire".

Ah, yes, because ANet has been such a shining beacon of transaprency and communication and easy to understand expectations of upcoming features, right? You are, naturally, basing this on their historical reliability in clearly explaining future content and changes.

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You might be a "glass half full" kind od of player, but i am one that has noticed that in all previous cases where i thought that glass will be half empty, the amount of water ended up actually even lower than that.

It doesn't really matter what kind of a player I am (and the recent patch has me quite doompilled, I have to say), but complaining that some players might lose some precious amount of whatever it is they have as the consequence of an upcoming change, even after it was stated that there would be alternatives and compensations available, is asinine.

"I worked real hard to make my scourge, and now it is nerfed, booo!"

"I finally made a legendary rifle for my mechanist, but now it is nerfed, booo!"

"My character was fully equipped, but now I have to go and farm jade bot parts, what, booo!"

Etc.

[vandrefalk.6823]

6 minutes ago, difens.1326 said:

The only thing that makes my trapper DH WvW build working is 6th bonus on the Trapper rune. So upon launch I'll lose that, the build will be rendered unplayable and I'll have to do God knows how much grind/pay how much gold to TP barons to restore it back? And I'm not talking restore performance but to make it work at all...
And they will graciously give one relic box for the entire account? Oh, that's sweet ANET. I knew I could count on you.

Can't you just choose that bonus effect from the free relic selection box they are giving players?

What I'm curious about though, is how this rune will add something as 6th rune stat bonus, and which part will be removed and put in the relic. Seeing as there's no stat increase on the 6th rune for this rune, if I'm not mistaken?

[difens.1326]

Just now, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Can't you just choose that bonus effect from the free relic selection box they are giving players?

What I'm curious about though, is how this rune will add something as 6th rune stat bonus, and which part will be removed and put in the relic. Seeing as there's no stat increase on the 6th rune for this rune, if I'm not mistaken?

It's going to be one relic, so one bonus. I need this for WvW DH, but I don't play just one character in WvW (or anywhere else). All builds that relied on some unique 6th effect (not 5% damage, but those truly unique) will be basically shut down upon launch.

[Astralporing.1957]

12 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

That just doesn't make sense.

I for one would've made 6 legendary runes and 1 legendary relic.

If i had infinite wealth and resources, sure. Of course, if you want to send me some things, so that i'd be wealthy enough to not be concerned about legendary costs, i'd gladly accept.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Just now, difens.1326 said:

It's going to be one relic, so one bonus. I need this for WvW DH, but I don't play just one character in WvW (or anywhere else). All builds that relied on some unique 6th effect (not 5% damage, but those truly unique) will be basically shut down upon launch.

We don't know if it's one per character or one per account... I'm guessing one per character.

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

The only thing that makes my trapper DH WvW build working is 6th bonus on the Trapper rune. So upon launch I'll lose that, the build will be rendered unplayable

Good.

Rest in pieces.

[vandrefalk.6823]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If i had infinite wealth and resources, sure. Of course, if you want to send me some things, so that i'd be wealthy enough to not be concerned about legendary costs, i'd gladly accept.

All legendaries are expensive, but simply because the set bonus effect is removed from runes, doesn't devalue the utility and convenience of having Legendary Runes to freely swap between stat increases at will.

I.e. I'd craft 6 Legendary runes now ahead of the xpac change, and I would craft 6 legendary runes and a Legendary Relic after the xpac. And if it had always been in place, I'd have made them all.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Dondarrion.2748

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If i had infinite wealth and resources, sure. Of course, if you want to send me some things, so that i'd be wealthy enough to not be concerned about legendary costs, i'd gladly accept.

If you have legendary runes, the absolute tied-for-bottom-tier-with-sigils of legendary QoL items, you are absolutely not hurting for money, lol and rofl in its entirety, my dude.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You said, basically, any new feature will either be a huge grind or a freebie. I provided recent, direct, clear examples of the contrary. So... Yeah, I'd say "refuted" is accurate here.

No. You provided an example that:

1. does not take anything away from players

2 does happen to be a massive grind 

3. with the grind being ignorable because higher tiers of jade bots have only minimal impact on anything.

Case in point: i don't have a tier 10 bot on any of my many characters. I have 2 tier 4 bots, some tier 1's, and some characters without bots at all. I don't feel pressured to get better bots either. That's how big of an impact jade bots have - next to zero.

Relics on the other hand have a massive impact, and i will have to get them for all my builds.

So, basically, your example has no relevance whatsoever on the case here. You have refuted nothing.

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

1. does not take anything away from players

Not relevant to the point at hand, as per your original quote:

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If relics were not meant to involve a serious cost and/or effort, they would have been a free feature, not a gear you have to obtain.

Anyway...

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

2 does happen to be a massive grind 

Is not a massive grind. Hell, they are literally given away for free at T1, and getting them to T6 to unlock full features if not full stats is honestly kinda cheap. A full slot of 2350 HP for 24 gold? Cheap.

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Case in point: i don't have a tier 10 bot on any of my many characters. I have 2 tier 4 bots, some tier 1's, and some characters without bots at all. I don't feel pressured to get better bots either. That's how big of an impact jade bots have - next to zero.

I bet you could also do without relic effects, too! That's how little impact they have - next to zero!

Honestly, five percent damage!? Pfft!

Get better material.

[SmokingLord.6108]

The fact that some people on this forum who *do not own a single legendary rune* keep arguing about how "tiny" and "insignificant" this change is makes me LMAO. Seriously dude, you are a comedian.

[DeathPanel.8362]

10 hours ago, Chaoslord.5439 said:

So your taking away something I already invested my time into earning.  If I want the bonus back I have to craft and/or grind some other part of the game to earn the appropriate relic.  This is really unacceptable and I won't be purchasing the expansion specifically for this reason.  I would rather Anet dropped the whole relic idea at this point.

Literally every single balance change in which something is nerfed is "taking away" something.  At least this change made it so it can be offset.  Would you be happier if they simply just removed all 6-slot effects and did nothing else?