So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Geralt.7519]

13 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I think they didn't do it that way because they wanted to implement a goal to grind for in order to pad out content duration, replayability, and or general engagement to keep people playing. They assumed that the various other aspects would distract people from focusing on the vertical progression and re-earning something that was taken away aspects. This was intentional, not an oversight. They just underestimated the backlash.

So they make grinding new gear a goal in a game that's always been sold as no gear treadmill? Did they suddenly forget why many people play GW2 instead of WoW?

[Mungrul.9358]

1 hour ago, Geralt.7519 said:

So they make grinding new gear a goal in a game that's always been sold as no gear treadmill? Did they suddenly forget why many people play GW2 instead of WoW?

It's not unprecedented; they originally added fractal agony infusions as a way to appeal to those who like vertical progression in an attempt to attract players outside of the traditional Guild Wars player base.

[Dante.1508]

At this point i don't really care either way..

If its vertical progression, power creep and pay to win, oh well..

If its more grind i will do what i always do, avoid doing it.

[Geralt.7519]

5 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

It's not unprecedented; they originally added fractal agony infusions as a way to appeal to those who like vertical progression in an attempt to attract players outside of the traditional Guild Wars player base.

Did it work?

[Mungrul.9358]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

Did it work?

Did they market it? 🤣

[Dante.1508]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

Did it work?

I would say yes.

[DeathPanel.8362]

12 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

So they make grinding new gear a goal in a game that's always been sold as no gear treadmill? Did they suddenly forget why many people play GW2 instead of WoW?

It's just a single slot and will likely not be expensive.  It's not like in WoW where each new level cap increase completely invalidates every existing gear you have.  A single new equipment slot after 11+ years is not that big of a deal.  Similar complaints were voiced when ascended gear came out and people adjusted just fine.

[Drag You Down.2615]

Sorry, can anyone help me to understand how relic may be linked to pay-to-win? I just failed to understand this logic. 

Because even legendary weapon can be bought by gold, why not relic? If relic cannot be bought by gold, that will be a problem because not everyone wants to spend their gold on crafting. 

[Geralt.7519]

11 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

 A single new equipment slot after 11+ years is not that big of a deal.

It's actually the 2nd xpac in a row, the jade bot core was another new piece of equipment they introduced in EoD, gives a lot of vitality and it's necessary because they nerfed survivability across the board to account for it.

You know, if the relic was *really* just a new piece after 11 years I would have nothing to complain about, but since it's the second in a row I do, because it means it's highly likely the next xpac they'll "invent" another one.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 6/28/2023 at 5:12 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   ...Your 6th rune will add stat progression and a new gear piece (Relics) would have to be grinded in order to re-gain the 6th bonus and not fell behind handicaped. Or you could buy gems, convert to gold and aleviate some of the grind for the recovering the convenience of something you already had.

   That doesn't sounds like "horizontal progression" at all to me. The power creep has been present for years since with the expansions the specs always add options, and options would provide further optimizations. But here we are talking about extra stats + losing convenience which has to be gained back again. In a game which didn't bother to release new runes in years and deleted most of them from PvP as a fast and lazy alternative to trying to balance them...

    I'm really surprised of the course this ship is taking...

So my first thought was not your specific post, but: "Look at all the confused emojis you're getting..." As if people sit here and pretend with a straight face that gw2 is not trying to give players the run-around in order to attempt to maintain the game as FF14, WoW, ESO etc are breathing down gw2's neck. A lot of people are in denial and stuck in 2012 when it comes to this game.

[idpersona.3810]

15 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

It's just a single slot and will likely not be expensive.

You literally have no basis for this claim.

But even "not expensive" will add up very quickly when players might have to gather up dozens of relics. Either in time or gold. And all of this just takes away from the time spent playing/enjoying the game.

[Geralt.7519]

9 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Sorry, can anyone help me to understand how relic may be linked to pay-to-win? I just failed to understand this logic.

It doesn't, there's absolutely no logic to it.

[Geralt.7519]

15 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

As if people sit here and pretend with a straight face that gw2 is not trying to give players the run-around in order to attempt to maintain the game as FF14, WoW, ESO etc are breathing down gw2's neck. A lot of people are in denial and stuck in 2012 when it comes to this game.

It's obvious Anet is giving us the "run-around" but I fail to understand how that can help maintaining the game.

GW2 can't compete with WoW nor FF because they're both subscription games while GW2 is not. ESO is popular but doesn't have the numbers of WoW/FF, not even close.

Subs are the most reliable source of income there is, they allow for more accurate planning and for pumping out such amount of content that non-sub games can't even dream of.

GW2 should just try to be its own thing and be good at what has always been and what players came to love it for, alienating your loyal playerbase doesn't help, nor it brings more players in.

[DeathPanel.8362]

25 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

You literally have no basis for this claim.

But even "not expensive" will add up very quickly when players might have to gather up dozens of relics. Either in time or gold. And all of this just takes away from the time spent playing/enjoying the game.

I said "likely" not to be expensive.  It's speculation, not a claim.

[DeathPanel.8362]

33 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

It's actually the 2nd xpac in a row, the jade bot core was another new piece of equipment they introduced in EoD, gives a lot of vitality and it's necessary because they nerfed survivability across the board to account for it.

You know, if the relic was *really* just a new piece after 11 years I would have nothing to complain about, but since it's the second in a row I do, because it means it's highly likely the next xpac they'll "invent" another one.

Jade bot is only relevant in certain game modes like open-world PVE.  People also adjusted just fine to it.  So why would this new relic slot be any different?

Vertical progression isn't always bad in GW2.  It was implemented in limited ways and in rare cases.  People have always adjusted to them just fine and relics will be no different.

[idpersona.3810]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I said "likely" not to be expensive.  It's speculation, not a claim.

I don't think there is much difference in the reading of that sentence. But it's the internet, and no reason to get caught up on stuff like that.

"not to be expensive" is very very relative. You stated earlier that up to 10g/relic is fine. I think it is decidedly not, especially for players with 20+ builds to fill out. I see no reason there should be a 200g tax on playing in the new expansion, just to get back to where we are today. That prospect seems utterly ridiculous to me.

 

And again, I really wish we had some sort of official statement so we could stop going around in circles on what's going to happen.

[Geralt.7519]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Jade bot is only relevant in certain game modes like open-world PVE.  People also adjusted just fine to it.

Because it was the first after many years.

  

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

So why would this new relic slot be any different?

Because it's the second in a row, pointing to a new trend that's not what the game was designed for.

 

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Vertical progression isn't always bad in GW2.  It was implemented in limited ways and in rare cases.

Key word here is "rare cases", that's not the same as "systematically in new xpacs".

And just to be clear, I'm talking ONLY about gear, vertical progression in masteries or something else is fine, it's the gear treadmill that doesn't do in a game that's always been sold as no gear treadmill.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, idpersona.3810 said:

I don't think there is much difference in the reading of that sentence. But it's the internet, and no reason to get caught up on stuff like that.

"not to be expensive" is very very relative. You stated earlier that up to 10g/relic is fine. I think it is decidedly not, especially for players with 20+ builds to fill out. I see no reason there should be a 200g tax on playing in the new expansion, just to get back to where we are today. That prospect seems utterly ridiculous to me.

 

And again, I really wish we had some sort of official statement so we could stop going around in circles on what's going to happen.

Having a lot of characters doesn't mean you'll be playing with all of them all the time.  It's not a requirement to totally equip all of them with relics at all times.   I have 32 characters and frankly, most of them are parked at gathering locations for farming purposes and I only rotate characters I feel like focusing on playing for the patch cycle which is maybe 5-6 characters.  That's the case for most people that I know who have a lot of characters.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

 

Key word here is "rare cases", that's not the same as "systematically in new xpacs".

Relics are not different "systemically" than ascended implementation.  In fact, it's less because ascended implementation invalidated someone's entire equipment set and forced people to replace their entire loadout.

 

 

[Geralt.7519]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Relics are not different "systemically" than ascended implementation.  In fact, it's less because ascended implementation invalidated someone's entire equipment set and forced people to replace their entire loadout.

That's wasn't every new xpac, that's what I'm saying, they're adding new gear pieces and possibly breaking builds every new xpac, this is likely the new trend and I don't like it.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

That's wasn't every new xpac, that's what I'm saying, they're adding new gear pieces and possibly breaking builds every new xpac, this is likely the new trend and I don't like it.

No builds are getting broken.  A build isn't going to all of a sudden stop being viable because has more flexibility to choose better relic effects and rune combos.  Not a single build will be less effective with this Relics paradigm because worst case scenario you have the same runes and relic effect as before and your build remains identical in performance.

[Geralt.7519]

2 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No builds are getting broken.  A build isn't going to all of a sudden stop being viable because has more flexibility to choose better relic effects and rune combos.  Not a single build will be less effective with this Relics paradigm because worst case scenario you have the same runes and relic effect as before and your build remains identical in performance.

You're forgetting an important detail, you get ONE relic at launch for ONE build, that you won't even know yet what's the most suitable to you since we know nothing about how runes and relics will be actually changed (because Anet said they won't be exactly as they are now), and the rest of your builds and chars are screwed until you grind more relics, and we don't even know yet which relic is acquired how.

If that's not breaking builds I don't know what else to tell you.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

since we know nothing about how runes and relics will be actually changed

Release patch notes

 

1 minute ago, Geralt.7519 said:

you get ONE relic at launch for ONE build

.Which you'll use on the character that you run through the SOTO story mode with, then by the time you're done with the story mode enough Relics will be in TP that you can then buy or craft the rest for the other characters you want to focus on playing for the remainder of the patch cycle.

2 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

the rest of your builds and chars are screwed until you grind more relics

Again, I pointed out before that you're not going to be playing all characters at all times.  There's no requirement that you gear characters that you don't plan on playing with relics immediately.  For example, out of 32 characters I have I only play 5-6 characters 99% of the time in each patch cycle and rotate based on what builds are optimal for that patch cycle.

[Geralt.7519]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I pointed out before that you're not going to be playing all characters at all times.

Stop assuming everyone else is like you, we're not all the same and we do not play all the same.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

Stop assuming everyone else is like you, we're not all the same and we do not play all the same.

I said: "you're not going to be playing all characters at all times."

Everyone is like me in that they occupy one place in the physical universe at any given time and can't be playing with all their characters at all times.  I stated an objective fact.