So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Strider.7849]

16 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The actual issue is you don't acknowledge other people's arguments but instead construct strawman versions in your own mind to argue against.  

I'll reiterate my core argument:

ANET never promised you that runes will never change.

ANET never promised you that it'll never create another gear slot in which some effects of runes might be shifted to.

ANET never promised you that having legendary runes makes you immune to the costs of this new gear slot.

Do you have a full set legendary runes? I do. I like to tweak my builds and stats as play - its allowed me to build my character exactly to my style of play.

With this new system of taking away the most important part - the 6th rune effect - it now takes the time and grind we put in to making these runes and makes it worthless. There will be optimal rune stats to take, for example just take 6 power oriented runes or condi, etc. This makes the ability to swap around runes almost worthless. The only thing that matters will be the relic. I'm not sure how you can't see that.

This isn't horizontal progression, it's completely removing what people worked hard to make and destroying that. It took me almost 2 years to finish my set.. I never would have made these if relics had been out on launch, for example. I would just simply make a legendary relic. I think anything short of giving players a legendary relic if they had 6 legendary runes will be massively disappointing.

[DeathPanel.8362]

13 minutes ago, Strider.7849 said:

I like to tweak my builds and stats as play - its allowed me to build my character exactly to my style of play

And you still will be able to customize legendary runes.  Runes provide the stats and they still will.  So your narrative that they will be "worthless" is ironically itself worthless.

[Astralporing.1957]

35 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I'll reiterate my core argument:

ANET never promised you that runes will never change.

ANET never promised you that it'll never create another gear slot in which some effects of runes might be shifted to.

ANET never promised you that having legendary runes makes you immune to the costs of this new gear slot.

So? Like i said, there's a ton of things Anet never explicitly promised not to do, that, if they were to do would be an extremely bad decisions players would have full right to be angry about. It's not just about explicit promises. It's about certain assumptions that Anet indirectly reinforced, and many assurances that might not have been ever spelled directly, but definitely were implied a lot.

In this specific case:

ANET never promised that runes will never change.

ANET never promised that it'll never create another gear slot in which some effects of runes might be shifted to.

ANET never promised that having legendary runes makes you immune to the costs of this new gear slot.

But at the same time;

Anet did imply that having legendary gear will let us adjust to any and all balance changes related to that gear. Immediately and at no additional cost.

Anet always made assurances about how after introduction of Ascended there will never again be vertical gear grind in this game.

Anet long ago promised that our BiS gear will never be invalidated by balance changes.

Anet long ago heavily implied that having all legendary gear setup will make it so you would never again need to regrind gear.

This case results in legendary gear owners having to gear grind due to balance changes to said gear type.

This case is not an usual horizontal progresssion type balance change which may make one build weaker while making another stronger. It's a classic vertical progression change that weakens all builds and causes all players to grind for gear in order to get to BiS again.

This case introduces a precedent in which even those with full legendary gear will not be spared from need to gear regrind.

You might think otherwise, but i'd say that expecting Anet to hold up to those implied assurances that managed to hold true for practically the whole decade this game was in existence, and that expecting Anet not to suddenly flip the table on Legendary owners is, in fact something extremely reasonable. And that it's expecting people to just accep it as if nothing has happened is what should be considered unreasonable.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

(Double post due to forum hiccup)

Edited July 14, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Strider.7849]

20 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

And you still will be able to customize legendary runes.  Runes provide the stats and they still will.  So your narrative that they will be "worthless" is ironically itself worthless.

In what situation would you need to customize your runes? The only thing it would be valuable for is probably celestial. Everything else you would just need one set focused on your damage type or healing.

You'll see the value in runes after these changes, when you can probably buy 6 of them for the same price as orbs - similar to how ruby orbs were used in the core game almost a decade ago.

[Rainbow Dragon.7268]

1 hour ago, Strider.7849 said:

 

With this new system of taking away the most important part - the 6th rune effect - it now takes the time and grind we put in to making these runes and makes it worthless. 

 

how do you know for sure it will be a  grind to get back the 6th rune / relic has anet said it's gonna take a long time to farm them? source please. have they shown the means to acquire relics yet?

[Strider.7849]

1 minute ago, Rainbow Dragon.7268 said:

how do you know for sure it will be a  grind to get back the 6th rune / relic has anet said it's gonna take a long time to farm them? source please. have they shown the means to acquire relics yet?

You misread what I said. I was talking about the the grind to make the legendary runes not a grind to make relics.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Rainbow Dragon.7268 said:

how do you know for sure it will be a  grind to get back the 6th rune / relic has anet said it's gonna take a long time to farm them? source please. have they shown the means to acquire relics yet?

Yes, they mentioned they will be acquirable by crafting, (SPvP/WvW) reward tracks, fractals and strikes. I sincerely doubt the drop rate from the latter two will be 100%.

[idpersona.3810]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

(Double post due to forum hiccup)

Hey, look at that. You even got multiple confused emojis on the double post. 🙂

3 hours ago, Rainbow Dragon.7268 said:

how do you know for sure it will be a  grind to get back the 6th rune / relic has anet said it's gonna take a long time to farm them? source please. have they shown the means to acquire relics yet?

They were talking about legendaries in particular, but even if just talking about regular ones, they gave some sources for them: crafting, WvW/PvP tracks etc. Even if it were just a few gold per relic (no way to tell right now) that would still be a tax on just getting into the new expansion. Especially for players with many characters and builds to re-complete.

I've said it before, but the prospect of having to re-do work is the main issue (to get back to where my characters were the day before release). For me at least.

Edited July 14, 2023 by idpersona.3810
clarification

[Ashantara.8731]

The time people spend on this thread to repeat themselves, they could have already compensated themselves by now for the alleged loss of gold they had spent on their legendary runes by actually playing the game. 😄

5 more days to go! 🙃
 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[idpersona.3810]

15 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The time people spend on this thread to repeat themselves, they could have already compensated themselves by now for the alleged loss of gold they had spent on their legendary runes by actually playing the game. 😄

5 more days to go! 🙃
 

I could have made 2k gold and 300 provisioner tokens? While at work, and thus not playing the game?  🙃
Sarcasm aside, I am looking forward to whatever announcement is to come.

Also, points will get repeated, especially when a new person asks a question that was likely answered much earlier in the thread. That just kind of happens on here.

[Ashantara.8731]

7 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I could have made 2k gold and 300 provisioner tokens? While at work, and thus not playing the game?  🙃

The Provisioner Tokens aside, I was referring to the value in gold, and I was obviously exaggerating a bit.😁 Though I have met people in-game who do play GW2 endgame content at work (always fun when you are waiting for them to confirm the ready-check, "Oh, sorry! Had a work-related inc.").😅

[idpersona.3810]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The Provisioner Tokens aside, I was referring to the value in gold, and I was obviously exaggerating a bit.😁 Though I have met people in-game who do play GW2 endgame content at work (always fun when you are waiting for them to confirm the ready-check, "Oh, sorry! Had a work-related inc.").😅

I wish. Though I do get plenty of forum and reading time. So my job could certainly be worse. I have considered bringing my laptop, but I think that would probably be a step too far.

[DeathPanel.8362]

21 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So? Like i said, there's a ton of things Anet never explicitly promised not to do, that, if they were to do would be an extremely bad decisions players would have full right to be angry about

None of those things you've specified or made a convincing argument about.  The only thing I see from your statements is that you're disgruntled over having to actually pay for the Relics when that cost is going to be borne by every player, not just you.

[DeathPanel.8362]

21 hours ago, Strider.7849 said:

In what situation would you need to customize your runes? The only thing it would be valuable for is probably celestial. Everything else you would just need one set focused on your damage type or healing.

You literally described how things are right now.  A select few rune sets are being used predominantly over all others depending on build, and a select few possibly different rune sets are going to be used after release.  The need or lack thereof to customize runes will not change.

[DeathPanel.8362]

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Anet did imply that having legendary gear will let us adjust to any and all balance changes related to that gear. Immediately and at no additional cost.

You literally paid no attention to what I said and proceeded to repeat something I already repeated addressed.  Legendary Runes will still allow for customizing at no additional cost.  Relics are not runes

 

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Anet always made assurances about how after introduction of Ascended there will never again be vertical gear grind in this game.

No, it didn't.  It just said they don't expect to add an additional quality over ascended for gear.  Again, you made up things in your own mind to suit your narrative.

 

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Anet long ago promised that our BiS gear will never be invalidated by balance changes.

Legendary Runes still allow for customizing at no cost to any rune set.  Nothing was invalidated.  

 

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Anet long ago heavily implied that having all legendary gear setup will make it so you would never again need to regrind gear.

Wrong. The promise was having legendary gear for that slot and item type will mean you can customize the stats at no cost.  Unless you magically have legendary relics why would expect to not have to grind relics?

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You literally paid no attention to what I said and proceeded to repeat something I already repeated addressed.  Legendary Runes will still allow for customizing at no additional cost.  Relics are not runes

Creation of Relics is part of balance changes to Runes.

[DeathPanel.8362]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Creation of Relics is part of balance changes to Runes.

Nowhere did ANET say Runes would never be rebalanced or that legendary rune makes you immune to rune rebalance.  The only promise made was that legendary runes will offer the QOL of customizing stat sets at will which remains unchanged.

Yet again, you're arguing from headcanon, not reality.

[Linken.6345]

14 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nowhere did ANET say Runes would never be rebalanced or that legendary rune makes you immune to rune rebalance.  The only promise made was that legendary runes will offer the QOL of customizing stat sets at will which remains unchanged.

Yet again, you're arguing from headcanon, not reality.

And as they said nowhere have Anet said they wont delete your characters tomorrow so if they do are you fine with that to?

[Torvis.1365]

2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

[...]  'The only promise made was that legendary runes will offer the QOL of customizing stat sets at will which remains unchanged.' [...]

Your source for this, pls.

You keep trying to frame what a legendary rune is.

MY acquired runes were different, though.

After all: if I pay say 120 USD for this set via gemstore (seems the price for mats atm), and if ANET decides to devalue my money/time, just to resell a previously acquired functionality to me again - guess what will happen with my next money...

Three family accounts on hold. No cent until clarifiction.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Torvis.1365
typo

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nowhere did ANET say Runes would never be rebalanced or that legendary rune makes you immune to rune rebalance.  The only promise made was that legendary runes will offer the QOL of customizing stat sets at will which remains unchanged.

Yet again, you're arguing from headcanon, not reality.

Reality is, i do feel cheated. Plain as that. You don't, but then from what you said so far i guess you don't own any legendary gear.

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And as they said nowhere have Anet said they wont delete your characters tomorrow so if they do are you fine with that to?

Wrong.  ANET has announced an expansion and accepted preorders.  So they have in fact promised to not delete your characters in the near term.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Reality is, i do feel cheated. Plain as that. You don't, but then from what you said so far i guess you don't own any legendary gear.

Apparently, you don't get tired of being wrong.  I played since release and have 32 characters.  I'll leave it up to people's imagination as to how many legendaries I have.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  ANET has announced an expansion and accepted preorders.  So they have in fact promised to not delete your characters in the near term.

Can you show me anywhere where they explicitly promised that we'll be able to play that future expansion on current characters? You've already made it clear that implied promises (like with legendaries) do not count, and only explicit ones do.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, Torvis.1365 said:

You keep trying to frame what a legendary rune is.

No, I keep refuting other people's incorrect attempts at framing what a legendary rune is.

A legendary Rune is NOT a guarantee of no longer needing to spend currency on any unspecified OTHER gear slot implementations.