BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: I made no insults. I stated facts. If you are insulted by facts then you might want to reconsider your position. By definition if something is part of a product at the time of purchase then that something, that functionality, was paid for as part of the purchase. Changing something's name after it is paid for so that a business claim that it isnt part of the purchase is just trashy. If a business says, "if you buy X it will include Y and Z," and then, after collecting your money, they change it to, "X no longer includes Y because we have changed its name to A and A is sold separately," then they dont deserve my money. So, again, how is asking for something that someome paid $70 for (because it was advertised as being included in that $70 purchase) demanding anything for, "free?" Again, ANet are the ones who sold the 6th tier functionality as included in the cost of legendary relics....none of us had the power to do so. Oh don’t try to hide, someone trying to compare someone to flat earthers is an insult again Legendary Runes only have one function and that’s to be able to select whatever the currently available Superior Runes are, and those are subject to balance changes which has happened before and is happening again with this update. Anet never said the game or legendaries would not be affected by balance changes. The only function of Legendary Runes hasn’t changed it’s still the same. but again I know some people will complain to get things without putting in the required effort because that’s what they always do. Edited July 21, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678 5 1 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, Vandal.5621 said: You're the one who's having trouble understanding. Go play WoW for a bit and maybe you'll understand. Been there, done that. They introduce new gear that is more powerful....as relics are compared to not having them. If our current power level (with 6th tier effects) is X, then on launch our power level (without 6th tier effects) will be X-1. We will then need to acquire relics to boost our power level (with the mix and match possibilities inherent to the system) to X+1. So we will be progressing to a vertical state of power one higher on the scale described than is currently the case and two higher than we will be at launch. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Oh don’t try to hide, someone trying to compare someone to flat earthers is an insult again Legendary Runes only have one function and that’s to be able to select whatever the currently available Superior Runes are, and those are subject to balance changes which has happened before and is happening again with this update. Anet never said the game or legendaries would not be affected by balance changes. The only function of Legendary Runes hasn’t changed it’s still the same. but again I know some people will complain to get things without putting in the required effort because that’s what they always do. I didnt compare anyone to flat earthers. I compared a claim to that of a flat earther. Both are unsubstantiated and based on false reasoning. And, again, they paid fkr that functionality. ANet advertised legendary runes as having the 6th tier functionality and, after accepting payment, then removed it. No one forced ANet to include that functionality at the price they set. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: I didnt compare anyone to flat earthers. I compared a claim to that of a flat earther. Both are unsubstantiated and based on false reasoning. And, again, they paid fkr that functionality. ANet advertised legendary runes as having the 6th tier functionality and, after accepting payment, then removed it. No one forced ANet to include that functionality at the price they set. They paid for the functionality to select any of the available Superior Runes, that functionality still exists. Otherwise they could’ve just bought any old exotic Superior Rune. And someone comparing a statement someone else said to flat earthers is the same thing as comparing the person to it. Maybe some people should make counter arguments that can hold up instead of resulting to insults. 3 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 28 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: Been there, done that. They introduce new gear that is more powerful....as relics are compared to not having them. If our current power level (with 6th tier effects) is X, then on launch our power level (without 6th tier effects) will be X-1. We will then need to acquire relics to boost our power level (with the mix and match possibilities inherent to the system) to X+1. So we will be progressing to a vertical state of power one higher on the scale described than is currently the case and two higher than we will be at launch. Again: that's not what vertical progression is. By your "logic," there's literally no such thing as horizontal progression, since adding literally any features is "vertical progression" to you. You're just talking out of your rear end. 6 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just my two cents: Its was funny to read that some people don't like "gear treadmil" and don't want to grind for new item slot - "Because I have real life". Considering those same people grinded full legendary gear with legendary runes. What is also funny is that Anet will give out relic selection chest for each character on account. So for most people - nothing will change at all. PS: decoupling of 6th bonus is a needed change for devs to be able to release new interesting affixes. I am exited by new possibilities. PPS: this is buff to PVP DH that was forced to use Trapper runes 6 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 55 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: Been there, done that. They introduce new gear that is more powerful....as relics are compared to not having them. If our current power level (with 6th tier effects) is X, then on launch our power level (without 6th tier effects) will be X-1. We will then need to acquire relics to boost our power level (with the mix and match possibilities inherent to the system) to X+1. So we will be progressing to a vertical state of power one higher on the scale described than is currently the case and two higher than we will be at launch. So, mounts are also verical progression? 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, Doomcryer.3650 said: So, mounts are also verical progression? My mounts don't increase my character's power level. Do yours? 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: My mounts don't increase my character's power level. Do yours? They literally do. They add extra engaging power that is useful in the open world. Springers are frequently used to quickly break a champion's break bar for the first time. So congrats on admitting you think literally everything is vertical progression. 4 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: My mounts don't increase my character's power level. Do yours? Yes. Few examples: 1) Try doing Dragonstand meta without using skyscale. You will be lucky if you can hit boss at least once. 2) Skyscale is a free fire combo field that lets you stack might 3) Skyscale can remove protection layers from Octovine allowing to ignore mechanic 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, Doomcryer.3650 said: Yes. Few examples: 1) Try doing Dragonstand meta without using skyscale. You will be lucky if you can hit boss at least once. 2) Skyscale is a free fire combo field that lets you stack might 3) Skyscale can remove protection layers from Octovine allowing to ignore mechanic I dont think that I can agree with point 1. I dont have a skyscale and do just fine there. Even if it was more difficult to get hits you would still get them and get credit. A free firefield when generating might, including via fire fields, is child's play is not more power. It is the same or less power at best. Honestly didn't know about the octovine aspect. Still, it doesnt seem like a raw increase in power to me. My mounts provide me with mobility but all of those dismount attacks of various sorts are weaker than what I can manage while not mounted. So, to me, no I dont consider mounts to be an increase in power. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: I dont think that I can agree with point 1. I dont have a skyscale and do just fine there. Even if it was more difficult to get hits you would still get them and get credit. A free firefield when generating might, including via fire fields, is child's play is not more power. It is the same or less power at best. Honestly didn't know about the octovine aspect. Still, it doesnt seem like a raw increase in power to me. My mounts provide me with mobility but all of those dismount attacks of various sorts are weaker than what I can manage while not mounted. So, to me, no I dont consider mounts to be an increase in power. You are definitely very good at mental gymnastics. After introduction of flying mounts, Mordemoth fight became like 3-4 times shorter. Because of how much easier you can move from island to island now. Free fire field is kind of a big deal. It DOES make your character stronger, without a question. Similarly to EMP that gives you a free CC skill. Or similarly to Jade Protocols that grant you buffs when you engage. Or, what would you say about Jade Bot Core? It is just straight vitality increase. Anyway, I am happy they introduce relics because I am a poor peasant without legendary runes, and some runes I need are locked behind dungeon currency which is kitten. Edited July 21, 2023 by Doomcryer.3650 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, Doomcryer.3650 said: You are definitely very good at mental gymnastics. After introduction of flying mounts, Mordemoth fight became like 3-4 times shorter. Because of how much easier you can move from island to island now. Free fire field is kind of a big deal. It DOES make your character stronger, without a question. Similarly to EMP that gives you a free CC skill. Or similarly to Jade Protocols that grant you buffs when you engage. Or, what would you say about Jade Bot Core? It is just straight vitality increase. Anyway, I am happy they introduce relics because I am a poor peasant without legendary runes, and some runes I need are locked behind dungeon currency which is kitten. No mental gymnastics. I dont have a skyscale and dont want one. I dont consider increased speed of moving across a map to be an increase in power. If you do, okay. In what way does a firefield make my character with 25 stacks of might stronger? The jade bot bit? I agree with your implication that it is power creep, and vertical progression. Same for those Jade Protocols. I have said as much in threads about them. They would directly increase my character's power level if I used them. 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 15 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: No mental gymnastics. I dont have a skyscale and dont want one. I dont consider increased speed of moving across a map to be an increase in power. If you do, okay. In what way does a firefield make my character with 25 stacks of might stronger? The jade bot bit? I agree with your implication that it is power creep, and vertical progression. Same for those Jade Protocols. I have said as much in threads about them. They would directly increase my character's power level if I used them. Projectile and whirl finishers in fire field stack burning on foes, leap grants fire aura. So it is not only about might stacking. Though some builds don't heave easy way of generating 25 stacks of might solo, and fire field helps with that. Also, Catalyst is a thing which has various synergies with combo fields and auras. Also by the way. In raid wing 7,second boss Cardinal Adina - the typical strat is to start the fight mounted to negate first unavoidable boss attack. So mount acts as infinite barrier. Still dont think it is OP? 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, Doomcryer.3650 said: Projectile and whirl finishers in fire field stack burning on foes, leap grants fire aura. So it is not only about might stacking. Though some builds don't heave easy way of generating 25 stacks of might solo, and fire field helps with that. Also, Catalyst is a thing which has various synergies with combo fields and auras. Also by the way. In raid wing 7,second boss Cardinal Adina - the typical strat is to start the fight mounted to negate first unavoidable boss attack. So mount acts as infinite barrier. Still dont think it is OP? I can honestly say that: 1) I had no idea one could use mounts in raids. 2) I think there is a difference between an assertion of vertical progression and being OP. 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigiormario.7305 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Doomcryer.3650 said: 3) Skyscale can remove protection layers from Octovine allowing to ignore mechanic Really? Is that on every side, I've actually never seen that. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 3 hours ago, luigiormario.7305 said: Really? Is that on every side, I've actually never seen that. I made a slight mistake. It is about North event. Skyscale fire field can damage bramble vines. Which is a more reliable way to remove them because herbicide spray is sometimes bugged and doesn't work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) Yeah relics are not vertical progression, that’s just nonsense and blatantly false. In games with vertical progression you have to constantly grind new gear every tier or expansion. Edited July 21, 2023 by vares.8457 4 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomcryer.3650 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 5 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said: 1) I had no idea one could use mounts in raids. Typical Dunning–Kruger effect. 3 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, vares.8457 said: Yeah relics are not vertical progression, that’s just nonsense and blatantly false. In games with vertical progression you have to constantly grind new gear every tier or expansion. Every journey starts with a single step. Hint: with new expansion you will have to grind new gear. Funny that. Edited July 21, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 3 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason.1083 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 1 hour ago, vares.8457 said: Yeah relics are not vertical progression, that’s just nonsense and blatantly false. In games with vertical progression you have to constantly grind new gear every tier or expansion. Honestly I don't even understand why people made such a massive fuss about it in the first place, it's both a feature that will be available for everyone(so not pay to win), it's not really power creep since we are loosing something to gain something else across the board, elite specs have proven themselves to be more of a power creep feature, and it's not an alarming vertical progression step, especially since we'll get relics given to us as compensation. Plus we'll eventually get legendary relics so no QoL will be lost in the end. 3 2 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Every journey starts with a single step. Hint: with new expansion you will have to grind new gear. Funny that. Wow so much drama. We will have to get new gear for one (!) new equipment slot. In other games with vertical progression or a gear treadmill you have to renew your entire gear, all of it. You are clearly overreacting. It’s a farce to call relics vertical progression and it shows that you have absolutely no idea what vertical progression really looks like. Edited July 21, 2023 by vares.8457 4 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, vares.8457 said: Wow so much drama. We will have to get new gear for one (!) new equipment slot. And? One in EoD, one in SotO... i see a pattern. Except this time they added devaluing already existing slots into the package, so it's progressing. 6 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: And? One in EoD, one in SotO... i see a pattern. Except this time they added devaluing already existing slots into the package, so it's progressing. Wow so now Jade Bot is vertical progression as well? Maybe play a game with real vertical progression before you present us your ignorance on that subject. 2 3 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 18 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said: Adding gear that makes you more powerful than if you dont get it is not vertical progression? The reason "vertical progression" has negative connotations is because of ways it invalidates previous gear such as when level caps are increased in WOW forcing people to regrind every piece of their gear for the new level cap. In this expansion, all your old gear will remain valid. You won't need to regrind any of them. There's a new gear slot and you're given a free relic per character above 60 in your account. Even if you label that as vertical progression it lacks the attributes that make vertical progression bad. Labels are just taxonomy. What really matters is what that label points to. 5 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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