So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You literally blamed ANET for creating that fringe that you belong to.  

 

How is that blame? 

Blame means to accuse someone of wrongdoing. You dont call acknowledging credit for a good or neutral thing blame do you?

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Claiming that I blamed ANet for this asinine. There is no blame to be had in them selling a product to someone who wishes to buy it. That said, you are 100% correct that ANet sold additional character slots, wanted people to buy them, wouldn't have put the effort into making them purchasable if they didnt expect anyone to buy them, and so should take those people into consideration when implementing changes that interact with something they sold.

Again, there may be blame for some things going on, but selling a product to willing customers is not one of them.

No one put a gun to your head to buy all those characters.  The default number is only 5.  Expecting ANET to make general game-balancing decisions that affect everyone based on your fringe sensibilities is asinine to the extreme. 

[Serephen.3420]

I'm waiting to see what they do, but still think removing a function you had to sell back later is screwed up...

[Ashen.2907]

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Expecting ANET to make general game-balancing decisions that affect everyone based on your fringe sensibilities is asinine to the extreme. 

You are mistaken. A company whose business model is selling X (among other things) should take impact on people who bought X into consideration when altering their product(s). This is "Making Business Decisions For Dummies," level. What is asinine is thinking that a business shouldnt take customers buying product X into consideration if they want customers to continue buying X.

 

And to clarify, I never claimed to have so many characters.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[DeathPanel.8362]

21 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It is perfectly reasonable because ANet created that supposed fringe. They decided that x number of character slots and/or build tabs were appropriate.

These are your words blaming ANET for creating the "fringe" that you belong to.

YOU made yourself the fringe.  No one put a gun to your head and made you buy all those character slots.  ANET is not going to make general balancing decisions around fringe cases like yours no matter how you try to justify it.  

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

You are mistaken. A company whose business model is selling X (among other things) should take impact on people who bought X into consideration when altering their product(s). This is "Making Business Decisions For Dummies," level. What is asinine is thinking that a business shouldnt take customers buying product X into consideration if they want customers to continue buying X.

Wrong.  taking into consideration isn't the same as focusing on that thing.  A car company may take into consideration that someone might go 160 mph with their car but they're not going to design their car around going 160 mph all the time.

[Graymatter.4723]

11 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Yes, it would be.  ANET can stop the game tomorrow and the game would be over.  It's an MMO.  No promises were made to you that nothing would change or that everything will stick around forever.  Every single balance patch takes away things and adds things to other places.  This is literally how all MMOs work.  Your argument is ridiculous.

And people would quit the game, and A/Net would shut down. You are arguing that what is possible is always acceptable, but those aren't the same thing. As a business, they can make any decision they choose. That doesn't make those acceptable to the customers. You know, the people that pay and keep A/Net in business. Decisions have consequences. Removing guardian is 100% possible but not something that the majority of customers would find acceptable. This (the relic change) is a decision by A/Net, no one can stop them making that decision. They are well within their rights to make that decision. That doesn't make the decision the correct one or one that is acceptable to customers. You can see that people here are unhappy which means that they find it unacceptable. It is a decision to remove a QoL feature not damage tuning or balance changes. This is a change the removes something that people worked very hard for. We don't know at this point whether A/Net will create a legendary relic. They could even start selling relic boxes in the gem store. We don't know. They haven't created legendary infusions and a underwater helm so that means that we can't be sure what approach they will use. Announcing that a legendary relic will be created would go a long way to placating the community. Or, at least, the people that have worked for full legendary runes.

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

These are your words blaming ANET for creating the "fringe" that you belong to.

YOU made yourself the fringe.  No one put a gun to your head and made you buy all those character slots.  ANET is not going to make general balancing decisions around fringe cases like yours no matter how you try to justify it.  

This is a falsehood. At no point did I blame ANet for my number of character slots. I am also inclined to believe that your claim that my ten character slots is a fringe case is a falsehood as well...though that could be a matter of ignorance rather than an intentionally dishonest claim lime the first.

[Graymatter.4723]

10 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No one put a gun to your head to buy all those characters.  The default number is only 5.  Expecting ANET to make general game-balancing decisions that affect everyone based on your fringe sensibilities is asinine to the extreme. 

Almost 65% of people on GW2Efficiency have more than 5 character slots and 29% of people have 10 character slots. That's not exactly fringe.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Graymatter.4723 said:

And people would quit the game, and A/Net would shut down. You are arguing that what is possible is always acceptable, but those aren't the same thing. As a business, they can make any decision they choose.

If they shut down the game you wouldn't get a chance to quit.  You'd be locked out.  The point is they are perfectly within their rights to do it.  You keep trying to compare it with theft when you don't own anything in GW2.  MMOs are like theme parks.  You pay for access.  No one ever promised you Runes would never change. 

You're just disgruntled you have to pay some extra currency to account for balance changes.  Welcome to ALL MMOS EVER MADE.  The time you spent complaining about this in the forums you probably could've farmed enough gold to get those relics already.  It's like you're arguing to argue at this point.  

[DeathPanel.8362]

4 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Almost 65% of people on GW2Efficiency have more than 5 character slots and 29% of people have 10 character slots. That's not exactly fringe.

 I was talking about YOU.

Edited July 2, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362
Mistaken one person for another.

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  taking into consideration isn't the same as focusing on that thing.  A car company may take into consideration that someone might go 160 mph with their car but they're not going to design their car around going 160 mph all the time.

I never claimed "focusing on." That car company, btw, would be in pretty hot water if they designed and sold their car as able to reach that speed and then stripped features necessary for the vehicle to operate at that speed after the fact. Mess analogy I know but it was messy when you introduced it.

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You keep trying to compare it with theft when you don't own anything in GW2.

In the exact post you quoted he specifically said that they could do it. How is that comparing it to theft, something that a company is not allowed to do?

Of course ANet can do whatever they want with our characters and accounts, at least here in the US. That doesnt mean that exercising that right is necessarily a good business decision. ANet has already admitted that they know that some of this was not the best idea.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

I never claimed "focusing on." That car company, btw, would be in pretty hot water if they designed and sold their car as able to reach that speed and then stripped features necessary for the vehicle to operate at that speed after the fact. Mess analogy I know but it was messy when you introduced it.

The bottom line, general design decisions aren't made around fringe cases.  There's a reason why airplane seats aren't designed for people over 1000 pounds.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Of course ANet can do whatever they want with our characters and accounts, at least here in the US. That doesnt mean that exercising that right is necessarily a good business decision. ANet has already admitted that they know that some of this was not the best idea.

Unless you're a BA or have any Product Management experience your opinions on what constitutes a good business decision are irrelevant.  Obviously, ANET has such people and they've made the decisions they made for a reason.

[Graymatter.4723]

43 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

If they shut down the game you wouldn't get a chance to quit.  You'd be locked out.  The point is they are perfectly within their rights to do it.  You keep trying to compare it with theft when you don't own anything in GW2.  MMOs are like theme parks.  You pay for access.  No one ever promised you Runes would never change. 

You're just disgruntled you have to pay some extra currency to account for balance changes.  Welcome to ALL MMOS EVER MADE.  The time you spent complaining about this in the forums you probably could've farmed enough gold to get those relics already.  It's like you're arguing to argue at this point.  

What a crock of bull. I didn't compare anything with theft. I didn't say they weren't allowed to do any of those things. Including shutting down the game. I said that customers wouldn't find them acceptable.

Oh, and I am not disgruntled because I "have to pay some extra currency to account for balance changes". I have plenty of gold. My concerns are strictly QoL. Nothing more, nothing less. I have repeatedly said I would be prepared to pay and work for a legendary relic but you choose to ignore that because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

There isn't much point in discussing this any further with you because you are being disingenuous.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The bottom line, general design decisions aren't made around fringe cases.  There's a reason why airplane seats aren't designed for people over 1000 pounds.

The bottom line is that if a business wants people to buy X they need to take into consideration the impact of changes in their product on those customers inclined to buy X. 

Now if their perception is that they will make more money via an action that disincentivizes buying product X and by potentially alienating those who have bought it in the past.....more power to them....but again, they have already acknowledged that elements of this system were poorly considered.

Nothing in the general idea of relics holding the sixth rune effect required devaluing runes.

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

What a crock of bull. I didn't compare anything with theft. I didn't say they weren't allowed to do any of those things. Including shutting down the game. I said that customers wouldn't find them acceptable.

And I'm a customer who did find the relic changes acceptable.  Now what?  Arguing with me isn't going to magically make what you want a reality.  If you can't even convince other customers like me why would ANET cater to you?

[Ashen.2907]

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Unless you're a BA or have any Product Management experience your opinions on what constitutes a good business decision are irrelevant.  Obviously, ANET has such people and they've made the decisions they made for a reason.

Product management and a masters with three decades of experience....but not game design. Appeal to authority, however, is a bit off. Everything theyve ever done that didnt work out or resulted in financial loss has been made for a reason too.

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

The bottom line is that if a business wants people to buy X they need to take into consideration the impact of changes in their product on those customers inclined to buy X. 

As I said, ANET's got professional BAs and product managers working on this and obviously, they decided to make business decisions this way.  Who are you?

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Product management and a masters with three decades of experience....but not game design. Appeal to authority, however, is a bit off. Everything theyve ever done that didnt work out or resulted in financial loss has been made for a reason too.

OK, then go work for ANET and push for the changes you want.  Problem solved.  Bottom line is arguing with me isn't going to get you anywhere.  I'm satisfied with the stated changes.  You're the one complaining here.

[Graymatter.4723]

21 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

And I'm a customer who did find the relic changes acceptable.  Now what?  Arguing with me isn't going to magically make what you want a reality.  If you can't even convince other customers like me why would ANET cater to you?

I said that I wasn't going to respond but now you are misrepresenting what I said. Where did I say all customers? There are people in this thread that are unhappy. It seems like there is only one person here trying to convince others that they are wrong and it isn't me. Regardless, I have no intention of wasting any more time on this discussion.

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

I said that I wasn't going to respond but now you are misrepresenting what I said. Where did I say all customers? 

You said: "I said that customers wouldn't find them acceptable."   It's a generalization that implies it holds true in general which is clearly not the case here since many people disagree with you and you yourself are a fringe case that don't represent most players.

 

9 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

It seems like there is only one person here trying to convince others that they are wrong and it isn't me.

Yet for some reason, you're the one that continues to argue with me when you're the one who's not happy with the changes and I'm OK with the status quo.

[Balsa.3951]

pro tip to that selection box wait a while and see which one gets meta or most expensive hardest to get later 

[Linken.6345]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You said: "I said that customers wouldn't find them acceptable."   It's a generalization that implies it holds true in general which is clearly not the case here since many people disagree with you and you yourself are a fringe case that don't represent most players.

 

Yet for some reason, you're the one that continues to argue with me when you're the one who's not happy with the changes and I'm OK with the status quo.

You know you could just stop responding too bud.

They are allowed to voice their oppinion so are you but trying to guilt them into being silent so no negativity comes out is kinda odd aint it?

Their last post have been clarification since you seem to miss read some of their statements and spit out falsehoods.