[BETA] Feedback | Holo-Hammer (Future's Haholo!!!)

[August.5934]

First of all, this is a great upgrade! This new system to classes will change EVERYTHING! It just opened a great way to enjoy the classes and many new combination to have fun but with this changes, I think Anet might have forgotten something about important in elite specs. Since i can't say about every class, i will only give feedback to my main class engineer.

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Hammer-Holo | Haholo (Halo!) 😂

When using hammer or anyother weapon in holosmith elite spec, please make it so that all the equiped weapons can access the heat energy of holo smith.

• Hammer skill 2 & 3 should get increased damage per heat level. Please make it so that Hammer skill 2: Electro-Whril Get increased damage per heat level and increased AOE radius per heat level. Hammer skill 5 with higher AOE radius per heat level with increased pulses. Hammer skill 4 granting more barrier per hit.
• Mace skill 2 should get increased higher damage per heat level. Mace skill 3: well, a bigger fist, reduced cooldown and slightly increased damage per heat level sounds very good.
• Rifle Skill 1 (auto attack) should get faster attack speed  per heat level. Rifle skill 2: Massive increased damage, 120° frontal AOE radius increase per heat level. Please make it so that i can feel that 1 BIG BANG with heat wave ripples🤯! Rifle Skill 5: Per heat level: Visually increased AOE with one BIG earth shattering slam on ground and ofcourse please add heat wave ripples💀, Increased landing damage per heat level.
• Sword is perfectly fine as it is, no changes needed on it.

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I only made feedback on Holosmith and i believe you guys can make a better feedback regarding scrapper's and Mech's weapons. I always loved scrapper's hammer playstyle and loved holo's holo mode and now soon i will be able to enjoy both of them at the same time.

Please do let me know your thoughts.

thank you for been patience ❤️

[Jerus.4350]

I’m not sure hammer needs a buff, and Rifle I think needs a bug fix and potentially a base buff, not just in Holo. Right now rifle auto has an aftercast that shouldn’t be there.

 

As for hammer being good enough, I’ve already seen someone push it to 39k with PBM trait, that’s solid.  If hammer got 50%+ heat bonuses and 100%+ heat bonuses, I fear sword would completely fall out of play, and that’s not great. Let Sword be the ECSU choice, and hammer is already better sub 100 heat and is good enough to make the PBM trait viable again for power.

[Yaki.9563]

Hammer will be nerfed. It's an overtuned weapon bc Scrapper traits don't add enough dps by themselves.

[August.5934]

16 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

 I fear sword would completely fall out of play, and that’s not great. 

Isn't elite spec the main important play? The spec holo it self has a special abilities and making sword a all round core weapon has changed everything. At the moment, the sword has no value outside of holosmith spec because the sword is created to work around the holo spec but if Anet makes weapons to work around different elite specs then i believe it will fix everything.

Holosmith has heat levels and giving other weapons the similer ability will only make holosmith a special spec. Same goes for other elite spec weapons. Scrapper or mech using sword seems totally pointless when hammer will be the go to weapon for everything now, so only elite spec weapons needs buffs to work around other elite specs designs.

[August.5934]

7 minutes ago, Yaki.9563 said:

Hammer will be nerfed. It's an overtuned weapon bc Scrapper traits don't add enough dps by themselves.

why would hammer be nerfed? How is it an overtuned weapon when scrapper traits don't add enough DPS? this doesn't make any sense. We scrappers have been asking for hammer buffs for very long time because engineer can't weapon swap like other classes.

Standing in 1 place and doing DPS is different compared to real boss fight.

[Bomboed.5697]

ALL weapons and E-specs of Engi require a lot of changes to make it work well. Holo's problem just proves that: all weapons, except Sword, have no synergy with heat, while Sword has no synergy with other e-specs, because it was designed to work only for Holo.
And we also don't have a real power off-hand weapon to combine with Sword or Power mace. And pistols still suck.

A lot should be done to make Engineer work properly. But it looks like it will not be done, because Anet clearly hates Engineers.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Bomboed.5697

[Jerus.4350]

1 hour ago, August.5934 said:

Isn't elite spec the main important play? The spec holo it self has a special abilities and making sword a all round core weapon has changed everything. At the moment, the sword has no value outside of holosmith spec because the sword is created to work around the holo spec but if Anet makes weapons to work around different elite specs then i believe it will fix everything.

Holosmith has heat levels and giving other weapons the similer ability will only make holosmith a special spec. Same goes for other elite spec weapons. Scrapper or mech using sword seems totally pointless when hammer will be the go to weapon for everything now, so only elite spec weapons needs buffs to work around other elite specs designs.

I’d like to see swords 50 heat bonuses get baked in to its viable for other specs.  It’s just I don’t think other weapons need holo heat bonuses.  Hammer is already good enough, and Rifle needs a straight buff, not just while having heat.

[Bomboed.5697]

They need to make an universal Heat bonus that will work with all weapons. Like +X% something per Y% of heat.
And sword bonuses should be  baseline, because without them it just bad and there is no reason to use it weapon.

[August.5934]

6 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I’d like to see swords 50 heat bonuses get baked in to its viable for other specs.  It’s just I don’t think other weapons need holo heat bonuses.  Hammer is already good enough, and Rifle needs a straight buff, not just while having heat.

Hammer is the only good weapon in engi class and the hammer weapon's damage seems lacking in most cases but non the less, i am very sure you will see most of the engineers using hammer for all specs because for Holo, beside sword & shield there is no other weapons that is good... not even close.

[Jerus.4350]

2 hours ago, August.5934 said:

Hammer is the only good weapon in engi class and the hammer weapon's damage seems lacking in most cases but non the less, i am very sure you will see most of the engineers using hammer for all specs because for Holo, beside sword & shield there is no other weapons that is good... not even close.

No argument from me.  PMech will be hammer, pCore will be hammer, holo PBM will be hammer, and Scrapper will be hammer.  Holo ECSU will be the only good non hammer build.

[AlPower.2476]

Hammer is the best for all engi specs, not because is OP as some people claims, just the rest of weapons sucks as for PvP. 

So or they nerf hammer making it a worthless weapon (thing that should be a lame, they already have nerfed kits so much, the rest if weapons are almost useless, so nerfing hammer will be the engineer killer) or they rework all weapons sinergy.

[Noxin.9276]

I like this kind of addition, thematic bonuses fitting holo and scrapper, that opens of some design space to nerf base rifle for jadebotters a little.

[jason.1083]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:12 AM, Bomboed.5697 said:

They need to make an universal Heat bonus that will work with all weapons. Like +X% something per Y% of heat.
And sword bonuses should be  baseline, because without them it just bad and there is no reason to use it weapon.

The issue with making sword bonuses baseline Is that Anet will definitely nerf it to compensate. Which means everyone will get sword to be a little better, but holosmiths will get it a little worst. I still don't think baking the >50% heat bonuses into the baseline would be enough for you guys to use it effectively. Imo sword only really gets good with >100% heat bonuses, but making those the baseline would definitely force Anets hand to hard nerf it. 

It was expected this would happen when they announced the change, simply because holosmith just has that unique mechanic. 

On the other hand, making other weapons get heat tiers is a massive win for holosmiths, which even as a holosmith player Idk if we should have. Imagine shield with >100% heat bonus, I don't even want to think about how much better it will be, and it's already quite good. 

[Bomboed.5697]

2 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

The issue with making sword bonuses baseline Is that Anet will definitely nerf it to compensate. Which means everyone will get sword to be a little better, but holosmiths will get it a little worst. I still don't think baking the >50% heat bonuses into the baseline would be enough for you guys to use it effectively. Imo sword only really gets good with >100% heat bonuses, but making those the baseline would definitely force Anets hand to hard nerf it. 

It was expected this would happen when they announced the change, simply because holosmith just has that unique mechanic. 

On the other hand, making other weapons get heat tiers is a massive win for holosmiths, which even as a holosmith player Idk if we should have. Imagine shield with >100% heat bonus, I don't even want to think about how much better it will be, and it's already quite good. 

But this will never happen because it requires too much work and Anet will never invest so much time and effort into the class they hate the most.

[jason.1083]

54 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

But this will never happen because it requires too much work and Anet will never invest so much time and effort into the class they hate the most.

I doubt Anet as a whole hates Engineers. 

What I'm trying to say is that sword is a special case because it's fully purposed around Holosmith, and changing it so other classes can have access to it's full potential will almost definitely mean an overall nerf which is bad for us Holosmith players. 

It will feel unfair to get nerfed just because someone else wants to tap into your stuff... 

Not that in general making the weapons available for every spec is a bad idea, engi sword is just a special case. 

[shion.2084]

36 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

I doubt Anet as a whole hates Engineers. 

What I'm trying to say is that sword is a special case because it's fully purposed around Holosmith, and changing it so other classes can have access to it's full potential will almost definitely mean an overall nerf which is bad for us Holosmith players. 

It will feel unfair to get nerfed just because someone else wants to tap into your stuff... 

Not that in general making the weapons available for every spec is a bad idea, engi sword is just a special case. 

likewise for hammer.  Now the builds that had to take a utility to Block will be able to put that into hammer instead... and there will be huge cries to nerf hammer because of its effectiveness in covering some of the inherent limitations of holo.

[jason.1083]

1 minute ago, shion.2084 said:

likewise for hammer.  Now the builds that had to take a utility to Block will be able to put that into hammer instead... and there will be huge cries to nerf hammer because of its effectiveness in covering some of the inherent limitations of holo.

I don't think it will be thar bad, I actually use both shield and photon wall for my holo, and I can't say that 2 blocks feel too much. 

Tbh I have gotten some comments in WvW a couple time that I'm tankier than I should be, but I attribute that mostly to the prejudice that Holosmith has to be a dps and can't tank.

Also I feel like shield has a more powerful block than hammer does, the stun it gets on all melee attackers is basically shock aura but better, because it has no cooldown between stuns, meaning it's great at removing stability stacks from players and one of the best defiance bar breakers on bosses, especially ones that attack rapidly. 

What I like about the hammer is the amount of might it gives but holosmiths can compensate for that, and picking hammer over sword means a big loss of quickness(at least in PvE) which is massive for people who don't always do Raids/Strikes and organized Fractals because self boons won't matter that much there. 

[shion.2084]

4 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

I don't think it will be thar bad, I actually use both shield and photon wall for my holo, and I can't say that 2 blocks feel too much. 

Tbh I have gotten some comments in WvW a couple time that I'm tankier than I should be, but I attribute that mostly to the prejudice that Holosmith has to be a dps and can't tank.

Also I feel like shield has a more powerful block than hammer does, the stun it gets on all melee attackers is basically shock aura but better, because it has no cooldown between stuns, meaning it's great at removing stability stacks from players and one of the best defiance bar breakers on bosses, especially ones that attack rapidly. 

What I like about the hammer is the amount of might it gives but holosmiths can compensate for that, and picking hammer over sword means a big loss of quickness(at least in PvE) which is massive for people who don't always do Raids/Strikes and organized Fractals because self boons won't matter that much there. 

Yeah I was PvP talking... no idea about other environments.   The thunderclap, plus reflect, plus block of hammer, the build in leap (in lighting field) made my holo experiments with it .... well abusive.  Because it covers for the natural trade offs of holo typically.     

But when you say might generation, are you talking the third whack with auto attack?   I almost never auto attack with hammer in PvP because of its range and speed.  Only sometimes if I have swiftness and am projectile reflected against nades, and every other skill is on cooldown.

Edited July 10, 2023 by shion.2084

[jason.1083]

6 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Yeah I was PvP talking... no idea about other environments.   The thunderclap, plus reflect, plus block of hammer, the build in leap (in lighting field) made my holo experiments with it .... well abusive.  Because it covers for the natural trade offs of holo typically.     

OK, I get it now, PvP is totally different. 

I'd still try that build in PvP but yeah. Lightning field is not bad either, Holo Leap can work with that as well. Although I think hammer is a weapon that makes you feel like you need to stay on it, while sword for example because of it's increasing quickness and heat bonuses will prompt you to go in forge. That's why it just feels more natural for holo. 

And about PvE more specifically 3rd tier sword with 100 boon duration gives 12 seconds of quickness, with the right timing you can almost keep up 100% quickness uptime just from that, the synergy with forge and sword is amazing, sword gives quickness for forge skills to cast fast and build heat so you can jump back to sword and reply enough quickness to repeat forge. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by jason.1083

[shion.2084]

1 minute ago, jason.1083 said:

OK, I get it now, PvP is totally different. 

I'd still try that build in PvP but yeah. Lightning field is not bad either, Holo Leap can work with that as well. Although I think hammer is a weapon that makes you feel like you need to stay on it, while sword for example because of it's increasing quickness and heat bonuses will prompt you to go in forge. That's why it just feels more natural for holo. 

Exactly... you have less need to go into forge to get damage, you can do it strategically instead of out of constant necessity.  It basically kind of undoes one of the fundamental balances of holo.

[jason.1083]

1 minute ago, shion.2084 said:

Exactly... you have less need to go into forge to get damage, you can do it strategically instead of out of constant necessity.  It basically kind of undoes one of the fundamental balances of holo.

OK we can agree to disagree on that, because I think it's good that holosmith needs forge to preform, it makes the class feel like it's empowering itself through combat, which is pretty much what's happening, especially if you use multiple exceed skills as well. 

[shion.2084]

3 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

OK we can agree to disagree on that, because I think it's good that holosmith needs forge to preform, it makes the class feel like it's empowering itself through combat, which is pretty much what's happening, especially if you use multiple exceed skills as well. 

I think we'e agreeing.  It is good that a holo smith needs to be cycling through forge all the time, that's kind of the flavour.   The point was that it was kind of filler between forge.   With hammer they've prolonged the viability of not in forge, removing some of the identity.

With hammer I felt like using forge was a crutch just to get the heat bonuses so I could use my hammer.  Which just feels ... wrong.

Edited July 10, 2023 by shion.2084

[jason.1083]

7 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

I think we'e agreeing.  It is good that a holo smith needs to be cycling through forge all the time, that's kind of the flavour.   The point was that it was kind of filler between forge.   With hammer they've prolonged the viability of not in forge, removing some of the identity.

With hammer I felt like using forge was a crutch just to get the heat bonuses so I could use my hammer.  Which just feels ... wrong.

Yeah, that's the whole point of the spec. What the sword does better than the hammer in being a filler between forge is that it cuts it's own cooldown as you auto attack, and having quickness which the sword gives by itself makes that process even faster, but ofc you can't just keep doing that forever because once you're heat level goes low your quickness application will be severely hindered as well as your damage output. So your forced back on forge. 

And the more exceed skills your using this becomes more and more involved since you need to think before you activate them. 

[AlPower.2476]

1 hour ago, jason.1083 said:

I don't think it will be thar bad, I actually use both shield and photon wall for my holo, and I can't say that 2 blocks feel too much. 

Tbh I have gotten some comments in WvW a couple time that I'm tankier than I should be, but I attribute that mostly to the prejudice that Holosmith has to be a dps and can't tank.

Also I feel like shield has a more powerful block than hammer does, the stun it gets on all melee attackers is basically shock aura but better, because it has no cooldown between stuns, meaning it's great at removing stability stacks from players and one of the best defiance bar breakers on bosses, especially ones that attack rapidly. 

What I like about the hammer is the amount of might it gives but holosmiths can compensate for that, and picking hammer over sword means a big loss of quickness(at least in PvE) which is massive for people who don't always do Raids/Strikes and organized Fractals because self boons won't matter that much there. 

What about:

100 Heat damage modifiers are base line; 150 Heat modifiers is the new 100 damage modifier and "Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit" now have an additional effect: All swords skills now have +10% or 15% extra damage and generate 1 stack of might per hit. Sounds that it would be OP; but current PVE power holo's dps is getting low again (A Beta Ele could do 57k dps wtf). Power Reaper has more even thought he's not a risky class despiste having a similar combat mechanic (besides might, stab and quickness that pve reaper could generate; yeah holo sword can generate quickness, but in the rotation, sword 3 doesn't exist).  And PvP Sword succs a little so a little buff it's nothing;  as well as it could have a 5% dmg modifier for competitive modes instead of 10

Edited July 10, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[jason.1083]

55 minutes ago, AlPower.2476 said:

What about:

100 Heat damage modifiers are base line; 150 Heat modifiers is the new 100 damage modifier and "Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit" now have an additional effect: All swords skills now have +10% or 15% extra damage and generate 1 stack of might per hit. Sounds that it would be OP; but current PVE power holo's dps is getting low again (A Beta Ele could do 57k dps wtf). Power Reaper has more even thought he's not a risky class despiste having a similar combat mechanic (besides might, stab and quickness that pve reaper could generate; yeah holo sword can generate quickness, but in the rotation, sword 3 doesn't exist).  And PvP Sword succs a little so a little buff it's nothing;  as well as it could have a 5% dmg modifier for competitive modes instead of 10

The suggestions about the sword are not half bad, but this post as a whole just emphasizes how unfair the balancing is, because it's ok for Reaper to generate quickness out of thin air while also having stability and loads of might, and obviously doing insane damage. But Holosmith can't have that "it would be OP if it did", even though to match the Reapers DPS you need to put so much effort, meanwhile it's a spec that punishes you extremely heavily. 

About the sword though, this doesn't sound bad, it gives everyone a half decent weapon at least while keeping 3 heat tiers for Holosmiths. Sadly though Anet would never do something like that, at least I don't think so, it would sound too much to them. Even the changes to ECSU were so unexpected, it seemed like an accident if you compare how they've handled Engineer for the past years. For Holo in particular though if they need to do something that would be to A) Bring back stability to Crystal Config Eclipse, even if they decreased the barrier a bit, and B) Make Coolant Blast actually do what it says and loose some heat, it would make it worth picking and it would be innkeeping with the spec since it would be a sacrifice of healing to avoid Overheat, a crucial decision in the middle of a fight, which I think suits Holo. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by jason.1083