Thoughts on Support Vindicator?

[Daoyun.3157]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:44 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

Rev is my favourite class and wvw my favourite mode and it'd be nice to play something else but a direct offensive setup for a change (have a berserker Herald and condi Renegade) and I wanted to use my 3rd equipment slot for Vindi (preferred support) but after reading here I'm uncertain. I don't want to invest in new equipment just to be told to switch to something else in a zerg/squad later :s

So, should I invest in just another offensive setup or is support Vindi still worth it in an organised squad? Sth like this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Vindicator_-_Ventari_Vindicator

I'm a support vindicator main who  has been playing it since EoD launch, and I'd say support vindicator is still pretty decent and viable in WvW squads as long as you know how to manage your energy well. They still do a lot of healing, but they are more on par with druids. The build you posted is good, but instead of going with the Song of Arboreum trait, I would use Angsiyan's Trust since it's more effective in WvW, and you get more endurance.

[Octavice.5019]

I feel this, I love being a healing/support Vindi. Unfortunately we are the last possible pick for any game mode because we don't provide alac or quick, and dont provide mass buffs like our Herald counterparts. I would honestly love to support in the organized PvE modes, but I know that wont happen because of that fact. Throw quick on the Urn and I'd be a happy staff whacking Vindi.

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Octavice.5019 said:

I feel this, I love being a healing/support Vindi. Unfortunately we are the last possible pick for any game mode because we don't provide alac or quick, and dont provide mass buffs like our Herald counterparts. I would honestly love to support in the organized PvE modes, but I know that wont happen because of that fact. Throw quick on the Urn and I'd be a happy staff whacking Vindi.

check thread I made in revenant section, this was one of the issues involved

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:49 AM, Octavice.5019 said:

I feel this, I love being a healing/support Vindi. Unfortunately we are the last possible pick for any game mode because we don't provide alac or quick, and dont provide mass buffs like our Herald counterparts. I would honestly love to support in the organized PvE modes, but I know that wont happen because of that fact. Throw quick on the Urn and I'd be a happy staff whacking Vindi.

Yep, healing vindi is quite strong. Ridiculously so, but because of boomer logic of meta builds right now, no one will let you be a support vindi in anything realistically, despite the meta is shifting to DPS is better at being the boon support over the healers. QDPS herald is much better than being quick heal Herald.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Yep, healing vindi is quite strong. Ridiculously so, but because of boomer logic of meta builds right now, no one will let you be a support vindi in anything realistically, despite the meta is shifting to DPS is better at being the boon support over the healers. QDPS herald is much better than being quick heal Herald.

It’s not boomer logic; it’s math. Any composition of 2 boon DPS, 2 DPS, 1 healer is missing out on about 10k DPS. This is why the healing role is also a boon role in meta comps. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

It’s not boomer logic; it’s math. Any composition of 2 boon DPS, 2 DPS, 1 healer is missing out on about 10k DPS. This is why the healing role is also a boon role in meta comps. 

Yes, and meanwhile, the boomer logic that sticks to that keeps missing the fact that the DPS supplying those boons have actually gone up. So yes, it is boomer logic, especially in pretty much a casual friendly game. People who spend all their time testing on golems since the math doesn't account for game mechanics, or those who are in tryhard all or nothing mode and will keep kicking people till the "right" group comes along. You know, toxic mentality.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

11 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Yes, and meanwhile, the boomer logic that sticks to that keeps missing the fact that the DPS supplying those boons have actually gone up. So yes, it is boomer logic, especially in pretty much a casual friendly game. People who spend all their time testing on golems since the math doesn't account for game mechanics, or those who are in tryhard all or nothing mode and will keep kicking people till the "right" group comes along. You know, toxic mentality.

Yes, I acknowledged the hybrid DPS supplying those boons has “gone up.” It still doesn’t matter because you’re looking at a 10k~ dps loss in a composition using 2 hybrid dps/1 healer/2dps for a 5 man party, and a 20k DPS loss in a 10 man squad (if using 4 boon dps/2 healer). 

like yes, you CAN do that and that’s fine, most content is still clearable in raids/strikes without that 20k extra DPS. However, it’s extremely nonoptimal to trade 20k squad DPS for 2 non-boon healers. Role compression is powerful and beneficial and it’s not like something like Heal Vindicator which provides neither quick/Alac is so powerful that it warrants the spot over a healer that can provide one of those boons.

also the whole “golem benchmarks  doesn’t account for game mechanics” is like the hall mark catchphrase of people that don’t understand how the golem actually relates to encounters, so I wouldn’t use that as an argument. While yes, DPS in actual encounters varies based on mechanics, if a DPS build is doing 40k~ on golem and 30k~ in an actual encounter, a boonDPS that pulls 30k on golem isn’t suddenly pulling 30k in a real encounter, more like 20k~.

The relationship between golem DPS and actual encounter DPS is proportional (ofc with variations based on mechanics/class, but overall still proportional, a condi Alac Ren on a fight that favors condi isnt suddenly hitting full dps condi Ren numbers…) 

This isn’t me saying “don’t play heal vindi,” sure go for it, I like the idea of the build myself. This is just me explaining that it’s not “boomer logic” if the goal is to complete content faster and more easily. (Remember, higher DPS = less mechanics = less need for healing/less chance to wipe) 

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Yes, I acknowledged the hybrid DPS supplying those boons has “gone up.” It still doesn’t matter because you’re looking at a 10k~ dps loss in a composition using 2 hybrid dps/1 healer/2dps for a 5 man party, and a 20k DPS loss in a 10 man squad (if using 4 boon dps/2 healer). 

like yes, you CAN do that and that’s fine, most content is still clearable in raids/strikes without that 20k extra DPS. However, it’s extremely nonoptimal to trade 20k squad DPS for 2 non-boon healers. Role compression is powerful and beneficial and it’s not like something like Heal Vindicator which provides neither quick/Alac is so powerful that it warrants the spot over a healer that can provide one of those boons.

also the whole “golem benchmarks  doesn’t account for game mechanics” is like the hall mark catchphrase of people that don’t understand how the golem actually relates to encounters, so I wouldn’t use that as an argument. While yes, DPS in actual encounters varies based on mechanics, if a DPS build is doing 40k~ on golem and 30k~ in an actual encounter, a boonDPS that pulls 30k on golem isn’t suddenly pulling 30k in a real encounter, more like 20k~.

The relationship between golem DPS and actual encounter DPS is proportional (ofc with variations based on mechanics/class, but overall still proportional, a condi Alac Ren on a fight that favors condi isnt suddenly hitting full dps condi Ren numbers…) 

This isn’t me saying “don’t play heal vindi,” sure go for it, I like the idea of the build myself. This is just me explaining that it’s not “boomer logic” if the goal is to complete content faster and more easily. (Remember, higher DPS = less mechanics = less need for healing/less chance to wipe) 

 

I dunno where you are doing your math at, but Herald DPS has spiked, it hasn't just gone up. It's pretty much now the pinnacle support DPS out there because of the recent changes. Same goes for a lot of the other support DPS out there. Especially since boon healers can't comfortably boon like they use to without some sacrifices. You can say the math says but math in a vacuum is and always will be pointless. You can spike a golem till the cows come home, but since the golem just stands there people saying X does 42k DPS really doesn't impress me especially when that DPS requires the target not move, you don't have to engage mechanics, and you don't have to worry about positions.

The ways are changing the sands are shifting, and what was considered tried and true isn't sitting as comfortably as it use to be. That's a fact, just like you claiming 10k DPS loss is dubious at best when checking the actual math then comparing mechanics. The game is pretty casual and laid back even in CMs this idea you need pinnacle set ups is just ridiculous on its own merits and demonstrates people live too much inside their bubbly echo chamber now.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I dunno where you are doing your math at, but Herald DPS has spiked, it hasn't just gone up. It's pretty much now the pinnacle support DPS out there because of the recent changes. Same goes for a lot of the other support DPS out there. Especially since boon healers can't comfortably boon like they use to without some sacrifices. You can say the math says but math in a vacuum is and always will be pointless. You can spike a golem till the cows come home, but since the golem just stands there people saying X does 42k DPS really doesn't impress me especially when that DPS requires the target not move, you don't have to engage mechanics, and you don't have to worry about positions.

The ways are changing the sands are shifting, and what was considered tried and true isn't sitting as comfortably as it use to be. That's a fact, just like you claiming 10k DPS loss is dubious at best when checking the actual math then comparing mechanics. The game is pretty casual and laid back even in CMs this idea you need pinnacle set ups is just ridiculous on its own merits and demonstrates people live too much inside their bubbly echo chamber now.

You might want to check snowcrows and top benchmarks.  Top DPS is currently 44k. Top quickdps is 35k. Herald quickDPS is only 32k. Thats a 12k difference between the top DPS spec and QHerald. Overall, it’s roughly a 10k differential between a boonDPS and a full DPS. Also boonDPS have typically been between 28k-33k since around PoF. That hasn’t really changed; they’re not suddenly soooo much stronger; there’s just more of them. The 10k differential isn’t “dubious at best;” you just haven’t actually looked at the benchmarks 
 

you missed my point about golem benchmarks entirely. Go reread it and look at the word proportional. Damage done on a golem TRANSLATES PROPORTIONALLY to damage in an actual encounter (with some variation based on type of encounter/mechanics and build). BoonDPS are still not doing as much as the majority of fullDPS builds in actual encounters; only about 2/3rd to 3/4ths the amount of DPS. 
 

yes, again, you can do whatever you want in most content, even raids/strikes. But again, this increases chance of failure with lower DPS as fights take longer. That’s literally always been the case on most encounters and that’s why most groups are not adopting your 2 boon DPS/1 healer comp. 
 

Also, there are encounters where overall DPS is incredibly important. For example, I’d dare you to go take your 4 boonDPS/2 healer/4 DPS comp over to something like Ankka CM Gazed into the Void (and take a video/provide logs) and try to beat it with the lower group DPS and non-snowcrows level players. That 20k lower group DPS can absolutely be detrimental in certain encounters/achievements. 
 

so no, it’s still not “boomer logic” lmao 

[Kozumi.5816]

Supports that do not provide quickness or alacrity have no place in this game.

I'm not sure why Vindicator has so many supporty things when renegade is the alacrity spec. It's very awkward.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 8/6/2023 at 5:50 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Supports that do not provide quickness or alacrity have no place in this game.

I'm not sure why Vindicator has so many supporty things when renegade is the alacrity spec. It's very awkward.

 

TDLR:

Players that arent lamers have no business in this game lol :)

only players that want to be carried.

 

Joking asside Vindicator is a mess due being want to be DPS and support at the same time,  it can work but no one will choose it cause dont carry nor it's OP.

IMO rebrand de spec   and make it legend with Archemorus  and make victor base legend :P this would help create more builds for the game as well.

 

Suport for papegas :) and i bet anet had plenty of compiler error c2079 while making that class >:}

Edited August 7, 2023 by Aeolus.3615