Willbender is in a horrendous State in PvP [Suggestions]

[GuriGashi.5617]

Not sure if CMC is aware that Willbender in PvP is in a horrendous state at the moment, but damage skills have horrible tracking, the Physical Skills are mostly useless, the traits Conceited Curate and Deathless Courage are not used and the overall biggest issue is the sustain of the spec. Here are a few changes with trade-offs that would put Willbender in a better spot in PvP:

 

Adjustment of Physical Skills

- Heavens Palm needs some baked-in sustain in order for it to replace Renewed Focus. Increase the cooldown to 60s and make it recharge Crashing Courage (F3) on successful impact. Replacing Renewed Focus would make Willbender a bit squishier, but would turn it into what it was supposed to be - a CC based spec that could pin opponents down and actually land its skills

- Add a high damage, single target flipover skill to Heel Crack that - together with Heavens Palm - would act as a 2nd CC and combo extender, because Heel Crack as a skill is so underwhelming it wouldn‘t ever be picked as a CC option on its own - no one would waste a Utility slot for the skill even if ways of pinning someone down are desperately needed on the spec

- Remove the Blind from Roiling Light and make it remove 3 conditions so it can be used as an option to replace the Meditation Contemplation of Purity

 

Consider giving back the second Flowing Resolve (F2) charge

- After the removal of the 2nd Flowing Resolve (F2) charge Willbender still saw play until Sword Off-hand and Rushing Justice (F1) were nerfed, which makes Berserker amulet a more favorable choice than Marauder Amulet for Willbenders in PvP at the moment. Giving back some sustain would be very much appreciated since we run around with less HP than before. Willbender as a spec is so insanely easy to balance via damage nerfs that a nerf of Flowing Resolve (F2) was completely over the top and just created an unnecessary split between the gamemodes

 

Small Changes to Conceited Courage and Deathless Courage

- I know that the Skills Team dislikes when specs have access to both Quickness and Alacrity. However Guardian as a class has horribly slow weapons with bad skill tracking if it doesn‘t have access to Quickness.
A great work-around would be to make the grandmaster trait Deathless Courage a source of non-sharable Quickness for Willbender when we use Crashing Courage (F3) - that way Willbenders would have the choice between having access to Alacrity, Quickness or high Lethal Tempo damage via the Grandmaster traits

- Please make Conceited Courage increase the Vitality of a Willbender instead of its Healing Power, so we can have around 2,000 more base-HP and don‘t have to walk around as 11K HP oneshots

Remove the Root from Zealot‘s Defense (Sword 3)

- in the recent patches the Skills Team has been busy reworking clunky, old skills - one big source of pain and frustration for many Guardian builds is the unnecessary root on Zealot‘s Defense (Sword 3). Theoretically it doesn‘t even have bad tracking, just the side-effect of being rooted and not able to adjust your character to the movements of opponents makes its projectiles miss more often than they need to when the damage of it isn‘t that high to begin with. You could even nerf the damage by 10%, just give us the possibility to move while casting it

Make Valor Willbender an Option

The recent balance patch has put Valor Meditation builds in a worse spot through the longer cooldown of the Elite Renewed Focus when running the Meditation trait Monks Focus. The compensation has been very underwhelming. Increasing the Fury duration from 4s to 6s and adding 1.5s of Resistance on Meditation use to Monks Focus would be an exciting compensation 

 

I think these changes aren‘t too over the top, would give the spec more build options, put it in a far better spot in PvP, offer a more enjoyable playstyle to the players and turn Willbender into a CC based spec that can actually „bend someone’s will“.

Edited July 18, 2023 by GuriGashi.5617

[Saiyan.1704]

2 hours ago, GuriGashi.5617 said:

Just wanted to say that if CMC is finished reworking Elementalist weapons, maybe he should give Willbender a look, bc that spec sucks harder than Firebrand Support rn in PvP

I don't think it's THAT bad but it is indeed pretty bad lol. If we can't blow up a single person when we +1 or at the very least, do enough damage for our team to clean up, then we ain't getting value on the map.

I had a G3 - Plat+ thief shut me down completely because I couldn't reach him at all and he wasn't even DE nor P/P... I felt pretty useless and I'm a solid G3 Guard player 😕 Having a LB would help come expansion but not by much.

WB is in an awkward spot rn in sPvP....

[GuriGashi.5617]

8 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

I don't think it's THAT bad but it is indeed pretty bad lol. If we can't blow up a single person when we +1 or at the very least, do enough damage for our team to clean up, then we ain't getting value on the map.

I had a G3 - Plat+ thief shut me down completely because I couldn't reach him at all and he wasn't even DE nor P/P... I felt pretty useless and I'm a solid G3 Guard player 😕 Having a LB would help come expansion but not by much.

WB is in an awkward spot rn in sPvP....

Adjusted the whole post 🙂 

[Ezrael.6859]

Solid feedback and ideas across all the Physical skills and traits mentioned. Especially underwhelming traits like Deathless Courage.

Sword changes are just basic quality of life since Warrior Hammer originally got its movement penalty removed, then more recently Guard GS.

Valour ideas are good too as Monk's Focus is a little light since the cooldown changes which also nerfed traited RF. Resistance is a good idea as damage Guardians are so easily neutered by Weakness, Cripple, Chill etc.

 

Heaven's Palm absolutely needs some kind of sustain added to make it worthwhile as a different option to take. We've been using Renewed Focus on damage Guards since the original Tome of Courage changes, some of us have always used RF since 2012.

 

The only other idea I have for Heaven's Palm would be to make it an evade for its duration also while leaving the current cooldown; some added sustain for an obvious and slow casting skill, a fair trade for giving up the invul and Virtues reset of RF.

[ultwill.8072]

sry idk if I'm late, but whatever you do anet, do not nerf Deathless Courage. We've already seen how you sneaked in that Indomitable Courage must be used in order to make the invincibility of Deathless Courage start sooner(not really complaining, I like that traitline) but that was a smart move on your part or else us willbenders would deal insane damage(Zeal + Radiance) + near instant invincibility.

In any case, whatever you add or take away, and especially because Guardians were pretty much destined to manifest an immortal will, the invincibility granted by Deathless Courage should not be removed.

ty

Edited July 30, 2023 by Omni.9473

[Buran.3796]

   Is not that bad. Is way better than Herald at the moment, to be honest. The problem is that for conformed teams in Automated Tournaments core support Guardian is more valuable, and in ranked Conquest matches with randoms Dragonhunter is more impactful. Firebrand doesn't even exist in the conversation.

   I think that Willbender was in a good spot until the last nerfs, and the main hit was probably the removal of the second cast of Flowing Resolve, which both degraded the mobility, the cleanses and the self sustain. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Saiyan.1704]

7 hours ago, Omni.9473 said:

sry idk if I'm late, but whatever you do anet, do not nerf Deathless Courage. We've already seen how you sneaked in that Indomitable Courage must be used in order to make the invincibility of Deathless Courage start sooner(not really complaining, I like that traitline) but that was a smart move on your part or else us willbenders would deal insane damage(Zeal + Radiance) + near instant invincibility.

In any case, whatever you add or take away, and especially because Guardians were pretty much destined to manifest an immortal will,, the invincibility granted by Deathless Courage should not be removed.

ty

Am I missing something about Deathless Courage? I don't know a single guard that takes that trait over a 25% damage modifier and I certainly haven't come across any near invincible Willbenders in pvp o_o

 

3 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Is not that bad. Honestly is way better than Herald at the moment, to be honest. The proalem is that for conformed teams in Automated Tournaments core support Guardian is more valuable, and in ranked Conquest matches with randoms Dragonhunter is more impactful. Firebrand doesn't even exist in the conversation.

   I think that Willbender was in a good spot until the last nerfs, and the main hit was probably the removal of the second cast of Flowing Resolve, which both degraded the mobility, the cleanses and the self sustain. 

I'm not 100% convinced that DH is more impactful than WB but i'm also not gonna argue about it lol!! I agree with everything you said. It was worse pre-cata era... I guess it's a little better now. People are complaining about SB but I'm not having any issues with them unless they get the pounce on me first.

What's going to be awkward is the next August expansion...... I don't see anything impactful for Guardian other than maybe quality of life items like... LB on Core/WB and the likes. Seeing how OP Vindi was with a shortbow on side-nodes was really discouraging for me. Vindi on shortbow could burst you down at medium range almost as fast as a chrono and there's very little counterplay to negate that damage.

Pistols better give us 3 different ways to stealth away or something lol!! Please Anet make pistols be impactful......

[Ferus.3165]

i have never ever seen somebody use deathless courage

and imo nothing changed since the cata nerfs... so many classes have the same burst capacity as wb but access to stealth, long duration blocks, invulnerabilities. Once you get focused by 2-3 dps you die so fast and have practically zero options to survive that i really can't see why someone should play wb atm. Wb only has better than average mobility in pvp and average burst and dps. But the drawbacks right now are that you are squishy, melee only and have practically no cc on top of having no options to stay alive when you are being focused.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ferus.3165

[ultwill.8072]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:03 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Am I missing something about Deathless Courage? I don't know a single guard that takes that trait over a 25% damage modifier and I certainly haven't come across any near invincible Willbenders in pvp o_o

 

On 8/14/2023 at 3:33 PM, Ferus.3165 said:

i have never ever seen somebody use deathless courage

and imo nothing changed since the cata nerfs... so many classes have the same burst capacity as wb but access to stealth, long duration blocks, invulnerabilities. Once you get focused by 2-3 dps you die so fast and have practically zero options to survive that i really can't see why someone should play wb atm. Wb only has better than average mobility in pvp and average burst and dps. But the drawbacks right now are that you are squishy, melee only and have practically no cc on top of having no options to stay alive when you are being focused.

Deathless Courage makes you immortal for its duration, allowing you to go fully on the offensive without being downed.

With Deathless Courage and the correct traits(some offensive some defensive), you can put all your gear into offense, then rely on DC, as well as your combination of utlity skills, to deal high damage while at the same time being nearly unstoppable.

Renewed Focus makes this technique stronger, as does "FMW!".  

Reversal of Fortune can be used to nullify and recover from damage.

With the correct build and when played correctly, it can be quite powerful.

Edit:

You are totally right about the other professions having stealth, blocks, evades, etc..... and yeah, the lack of cc on WB is definitely a problem, especially because you have to sacrifice some skills(potential damage/defense) to get that cc, while some other professions get it casually SHOOT WHY CANT WILLBENDER JUST BE THE MOST OP CLASS IN THE GAME PLS!

In simple terms, it's difficult to fight cheese that strong as Willbender.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Omni.9473

[Ezrael.6859]

The Centaurs of Queensdale must truly fear you and your Deathless Courage.

[ultwill.8072]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:00 AM, Ezrael.6859 said:

The Centaurs of Queensdale must truly fear you and your Deathless Courage.

Funny, but sometimes people look at the meta and don't even consider the possibilities/potential of alternative options.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Omni.9473

[Saiyan.1704]

6 hours ago, Omni.9473 said:

Funny, but some people look at the meta and don't even consider the possibilities/potential of alternative options.

Fact of the matter is no one uses that in G2+ and definitely not in high Plat or AT's.... It doesn't do anything for WB in sPvP (or wvw idk) because you're going to survive 9 times out of 10 during the WHOLE duration of F3 anyways... so there's no point in the trait. Especially since it is in direct competition of Tyrant's Momentum. Aint no way Willbenders are passing up a 25% damage modifier.
(this is coming from a player who's G3/Plat1 in NA/EU)

I had to reply because I don't want any Guard players thinking this is a good trait to use unless they're memeing in WvW blobs or something.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[ultwill.8072]

3 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Fact of the matter is no one uses that in G2+ and definitely not in high Plat or AT's.... It doesn't do anything for WB in sPvP (or wvw idk) because you're going to survive 9 times out of 10 during the WHOLE duration of F3 anyways... so there's no point in the trait. Especially since it is in direct competition of Tyrant's Momentum. Aint no way Willbenders are passing up a 25% damage modifier.
(this is coming from a player who's G3/Plat1 in NA/EU)

I had to reply because I don't want any Guard players thinking this is a good trait to use unless they're memeing in WvW blobs or something.

Ah, well if that's true then you certainly know more than I do about structured pvp, or pvp in general at that.

I really only have experience in 1v1 battles, and based my information on that, which I apologize for not being clear about in the first place.

Minimal experience in matches, especially ranked matches, where things play out differently, so my information isn't much good there.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Omni.9473

[Balsa.3951]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Ezrael.6859 said:

Solid feedback and ideas across all the Physical skills and traits mentioned. Especially underwhelming traits like Deathless Courage.

Sword changes are just basic quality of life since Warrior Hammer originally got its movement penalty removed, then more recently Guard GS.

Valour ideas are good too as Monk's Focus is a little light since the cooldown changes which also nerfed traited RF. Resistance is a good idea as damage Guardians are so easily neutered by Weakness, Cripple, Chill etc.

 

Heaven's Palm absolutely needs some kind of sustain added to make it worthwhile as a different option to take. We've been using Renewed Focus on damage Guards since the original Tome of Courage changes, some of us have always used RF since 2012.

 

The only other idea I have for Heaven's Palm would be to make it an evade for its duration also while leaving the current cooldown; some added sustain for an obvious and slow casting skill, a fair trade for giving up the invul and Virtues reset of RF.

instant stomp. it wouls also be something what gives guard something totally new

[ultwill.8072]

On 8/18/2023 at 10:58 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Fact of the matter is no one uses that in G2+ and definitely not in high Plat or AT's.... It doesn't do anything for WB in sPvP (or wvw idk) because you're going to survive 9 times out of 10 during the WHOLE duration of F3 anyways... so there's no point in the trait. Especially since it is in direct competition of Tyrant's Momentum. Aint no way Willbenders are passing up a 25% damage modifier.
(this is coming from a player who's G3/Plat1 in NA/EU)

I had to reply because I don't want any Guard players thinking this is a good trait to use unless they're memeing in WvW blobs or something.

A reminder, however, that Tyrant's Momentum only gives a potential 10% increase in damage, not 25%.

Without Tyrants Momentum, you still get a potential 15% damage increase, and it lasts 6 seconds.

With Tyrants Momentum, this is increased to a potential 25% damage increase, but it lasts 4 seconds. However, the effect of Justice is increased by 2 seconds, so that's another plus.

In those terms, TM is best if you want more damage, but TM is not indispensable in my opinion.

But still, if we're talking about high-ranked matches, I could very well be wrong and TM can't be replaced.

Everyone just remember that you can make your own builds, and yes while some skills/traits are better to use than others in certain situations, most of the outcome of a battle will be decided on how well you use those skills/traits.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Omni.9473

[Saiyan.1704]

1 hour ago, Omni.9473 said:

A reminder, however, that Tyrant's Momentum only gives a potential 10% increase in damage, not 25%.

Without Tyrants Momentum, you still get a potential 15% damage increase, and it lasts 6 seconds.

With Tyrants Momentum, this is increased to a potential 25% damage increase, but it lasts 4 seconds. However, the effect of Justice is increased by 2 seconds, so that's another plus.

In those terms, TM is best if you want more damage, but TM is not indispensable in my opinion.

But still, if we're talking about high-ranked matches, I could very well be wrong and TM can't be replaced.

Everyone just remember that you can make your own builds, and yes while some skills/traits are better to use than others in certain situations, most of the outcome of a battle will be decided on how well you use those skills/traits.

Thank you for the correction :)!