Stealth counter

[capuchinseven.8395]

I've played more than a few classes by far one of the hardest to get good with was Thief, it's a razors edge of fighting near death and being alive all the time.

In a game of Sig Cata, one shot Rangers, easy mode if you're bad Willbenders, unkillable Condibunkers, Celestial Harbinger's there are people (still) moaning because a Thief managed to run away is comical.

[capuchinseven.8395]

On 7/21/2023 at 11:43 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thieves can still stealth there with 40%+ uptime you know.

But if thieves want to argue stealth is fine, we're back to one main point:

Delete the smokefield for pistol 5. That has nothing to do with stealth balance, right? The skill doesnt even apply stealth!

If a thief argues against that well they show their true colors.

What an utterly weird argument. Remove Pistol 5 and it would need replacing with something else, you'd probably STILL be moaning about that.

On 7/21/2023 at 10:22 PM, Burnfall.9573 said:

having-0 zero counter

Another absolutely weird thing to claim.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 minutes ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

it would need replacing with something else

No it doesnt 🤷‍♂️

[capuchinseven.8395]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No it doesnt 🤷‍♂️

So you delete pistol 5 and... what? That's it? Thief doesn't get anything on pistol 5? It keeps pistol 5 but the Smoke Field goes? So it's basically it's the same as pistol 3 but with less damage than pistol 3, less blind than pistol 3, no teleport/utility like pistol 3 but iT WoN'T NeEd ChAnGiNg ThAt'S FiNe. 

I can't even with some of you people, I think it's pretty clear you're dishonest debaters.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

So you delete pistol 5 and... what? That's it? Thief doesn't get anything on pistol 5? It keeps pistol 5 but the Smoke Field goes? So it's basically it's the same as pistol 3 but with less damage than pistol 3, less blind than pistol 3, no teleport/utility like pistol 3 but iT WoN'T NeEd ChAnGiNg ThAt'S FiNe. 

I can't even with some of you people, I think it's pretty clear you're dishonest debaters.

Spoken like a true thief protecting his pistol 5.

Last I checked pistol 3 was a damage skill that has nothing to do with the more CC oriented pistol 5 blind. Teleport? Uhm... what? Its a ranged rapid fire.

Or did you assume dagger as pistol 3?

Yeah that also says how you view pistol 5, just as one big dagger/pistol combo because you know... the smokefield.

TL;DR you can just delete the smokefield.

 

[andrewlcl.8176]

As with anything, there's always outliers. 

Like diamond rank thieves that destroy in 2 seconds with almost no counterplay.

[capuchinseven.8395]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Spoken like a true thief protecting his pistol 5.

As said, dishonest debater. You'll throw junk out like this with no real substance to what you're bringing when you face push back.

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Or did you assume dagger as pistol 3?

I gave an example of what it would become, it wouldn't matter what you had in main hand it would become 100% as I stated if they simply removed Smoke Field (so your point is basically of little point, but AS said dishonest debater). It would become a more expensive, lesser Shadow Shot. It shoots a single blind shot, like Shadow Shot and then drops a Smoke Field, remove the Smoke Field and it does less damage, less utility for more expense than Shadow Shot.

Hell if people want it changed, do it, I heavily lean to S/D but even if I wasn't I'd adjust but that leaves it either entirely gutted (as well as changes huge parts of Shadow Arts that rely on stealth or blind and would kill any other build outside of D/P that use Pistol in off hand) or it needs replacing; which you don't want. BUT like I said, you're a dishonest debater with little of worth to bring.

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah that also says how you view pistol 5, just as one big dagger/pistol combo because you know... the smokefield.

As said, dishonest debater.

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

TL;DR you can just delete the smokefield.

TL;DR this is simply dishonest debating, throwing out grand ideas and then when pushed on those ideas just shouts "spoken like a true thief protecting his pistol 5".

Edited July 27, 2023 by capuchinseven.8395

[Invictorum.7643]

There is a counter to thief stealthing. The fields that are used to get into stealth are fairly obviously seen during combat. Either throw aoe's on it, or stand in it.

If they hit you while heartseekering to get stealth, instant reveal.

the counter to a thief stealthing is less mechanical and more tactical. To outplay, you must out-think. And its not like we live in the days of insta-gib backstabs from stealth anymore, so you do have the chance to outplay.

[senftube.6081]

12 hours ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

I've played more than a few classes by far one of the hardest to get good with was Thief, it's a razors edge of fighting near death and being alive all the time.

In a game of Sig Cata, one shot Rangers, easy mode if you're bad Willbenders, unkillable Condibunkers, Celestial Harbinger's there are people (still) moaning because a Thief managed to run away is comical.

Yeah thief is pretty hard to play and even more to master. 

10 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Spoken like a true thief protecting his pistol 5.

Last I checked pistol 3 was a damage skill that has nothing to do with the more CC oriented pistol 5 blind. Teleport? Uhm... what? Its a ranged rapid fire.

Or did you assume dagger as pistol 3?

Yeah that also says how you view pistol 5, just as one big dagger/pistol combo because you know... the smokefield.

TL;DR you can just delete the smokefield.

 

That would make Smokefield a nonsense skill with no usage, lol. It would kill D/P completly. You are a bit delusional.

[andrewlcl.8176]

10 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

There is a counter to thief stealthing. The fields that are used to get into stealth are fairly obviously seen during combat. Either throw aoe's on it, or stand in it.

If they hit you while heartseekering to get stealth, instant reveal.

the counter to a thief stealthing is less mechanical and more tactical. To outplay, you must out-think. And its not like we live in the days of insta-gib backstabs from stealth anymore, so you do have the chance to outplay.

Hitting a foe through a pistol 5 + heartseeeker combo does not break stealth. 

Last I checked, backstab was still pulling 10K hits, enough to one-shot a player if they have already taken some damage. If not, it leaves you open for couple of other quick attacks like heartseeker or shadow shot. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by andrewlcl.8176

[Invictorum.7643]

15 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

enough to one-shot a player if they have already taken some damage.

So, not a one shot.

 

15 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

If not, it leaves you open for couple of other quick attacks like heartseeker or shadow shot. 

If someone's trying to clean up after a backstab, thats when the target can react to avoid further damage unless major cooldowns are used. The only time I've seen this not happen is when a thief pops EVERYTHING to secure a quick kill, and is left completely open to anyone else nearby. Again, dealing with thieves is less a mechanical thing (especially in the current bloated meta), and more just understanding what both your class, and theirs, can do.

[andrewlcl.8176]

2 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

So, not a one shot.

 

If someone's trying to clean up after a backstab, thats when the target can react to avoid further damage unless major cooldowns are used. The only time I've seen this not happen is when a thief pops EVERYTHING to secure a quick kill, and is left completely open to anyone else nearby. Again, dealing with thieves is less a mechanical thing (especially in the current bloated meta), and more just understanding what both your class, and theirs, can do.

Steal + CnD + Backstab. Add Mug trait, Sigil of Air. That's 17 THOUSAND damage. And it's very fast. Since we can't call that one-shot, maybe it's wombo-combo?

Or Pistol 5 + heartseeker through to hit, lead to backstab, then shadow shot + heartseeker? Over 24 THOUSAND damage.

All this can happen outta nowhere. I don't care how fast people think they are. Those who have met a good thief in WvW know this. Skills generally have an activation time. People usually need a reaction time. It's possible to avoid instant down, but generally, you're too weak to fight back after the first hit or two, and the fight is over in favor of the thief.

Other factors can add to the matchup. Thief with good latency plus yourself with ping in the 200 ish (which isn't uncommon), and invariably, people get destroyed.

I appreciate these things don't happen commonly. But I'm trying to explain that, I see the frustration when people get their kitten whooped like that.

[Invictorum.7643]

4 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Steal + CnD + Backstab. Add Mug trait, Sigil of Air. That's 17 THOUSAND damage. And it's very fast. Since we can't call that one-shot, maybe it's wombo-combo?

Or Pistol 5 + heartseeker through to hit, lead to backstab, then shadow shot + heartseeker? Over 24 THOUSAND damage.

Those kinds of numbers only happen on builds running minimal to 0 toughness from gear though. And as someone who's been playing thief since launch, and been on the receiving end of thieves much better than I, if your opponent hasn't tried to open a gap or pop defensives by the time the steal and CnD have gone through? Then maybe they shouldn't be running gear that doesn't accommodate for slower reaction times.

And one giant thing people forget is that while Thieves have that massively frontloaded damage, they have so many tradeoffs for it. There is basically 0 staying power if the thief is running that kind of build. Running Deadly Arts means no Shadow Arts, which in turn means the thief has basically 0 functional condition cleanse when they need it. They are going ALL in on that burst damage, but will crumble when forced to deal with conditions. And that's assuming theyre running Daredevil, since Deadeye is even worse are sustain with D/P use. And if they fail to secure the kill because their opponent reacted accordingly? They have little to no recourse outside trying to run away, if their opponent lets them.

 

10 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

All this can happen outta nowhere. I don't care how fast people think they are. Those who have met a good thief in WvW know this. Skills generally have an activation time. People usually need a reaction time. It's possible to avoid instant down, but generally, you're too weak to fight back after the first hit or two, and the fight is over in favor of the thief.

But on the flip side, the exact same thing can happen to a thief from other classes. Ever have a FA ele just lightning flash to you real quick and chunk you down to 40% before getting one crit in fire, and doing it again? Willbender being effectively just blue thief right now? Or Mesmer who can have just as much, if not more burst than a thief. Massive burst isn't something purely in the court of Thief. Thief can just hide it a little better, so of course it's going to turn fresh players into red puddles. In literally every PvP game where you can play a class that can hide your actions, that class inevitably becomes the noob killer.

16 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Other factors can add to the matchup. Thief with good latency plus yourself with ping in the 200 ish (which isn't uncommon), and invariably, people get destroyed.

I appreciate these things don't happen commonly. But I'm trying to explain that, I see the frustration when people get their kitten whooped like that.

I truely get where people come from on this situation, but far too many people are trying to use whats meta, or what other, more experienced players tell them to use. When in reality, they need to work up the skills and reactions to be able to use that kind of gear, because without the foresight, experience, and understanding on how to react to other players? You're just going to end up with a frustrated new player who doesn't see why they cant overcome in a fight that they were poorly prepared for. They need to learn to anticipate, and they cannot learn until they muster up enough experience. And unfortunately, experience is earned from each fight, win or loss.

[Dawdler.8521]

9 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

That would make Smokefield a nonsense skill with no usage, lol. It would kill D/P completly. You are a bit delusional.

Its still an aoe blind on no cd. I'd take thief pistol 5 without smokefield replacing the useless pistol 5 for engineer any day of the week. 

And once again, if the smoke field is that critical to people so it ruins everything... yeah I dont think I have to repeat what is fact. People just want to use it specifically for abusing perma stealth leaps and they cant stand the thought of seeing it nerfed.

[capuchinseven.8395]

3 hours ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Steal + CnD + Backstab. Add Mug trait, Sigil of Air. That's 17 THOUSAND damage. And it's very fast. Since we can't call that one-shot, maybe it's wombo-combo?

The problem with comments like this, and I understand where you're coming from, is that those sorts of builds (of which I can run) sacrifice a lot to do what you're stating (as well as pick my moments), I can do similar things on other classes and give up a lot less to do it.

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

for abusing perma stealth leaps...

Hyperbolic clown comment. This synergy is built into the class and is intended to be used this way.

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

...and they cant stand the thought of seeing it nerfed.

Yes because it's LITERALLY a linchpin of the class, removing it (and then sticking your fingers in your ears) utterly guts several builds as well as utterly wrecks Shadow Arts. You're looking at a Jenga tower and saying "OH lets remove this brick just here and I don't care if the whole tower comes crashing down because the tower was mean to me".

You're throwing out blanket statements and when you get any sort of push back like "well, that would utterly change everything about the class using synergy as intended, it would change huge parts of the class in one single stroke" you answer "JuSt ReMoVe iT".

It's actually lol given you talk about Engineer and the insane amount of output I can do on a Scapper or a Holosmith.

[Dawdler.8521]

57 minutes ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

The problem with comments like this, and I understand where you're coming from, is that those sorts of builds (of which I can run) sacrifice a lot to do what you're stating (as well as pick my moments), I can do similar things on other classes and give up a lot less to do it.

Hyperbolic clown comment. This synergy is built into the class and is intended to be used this way.

Yes because it's LITERALLY a linchpin of the class, removing it (and then sticking your fingers in your ears) utterly guts several builds as well as utterly wrecks Shadow Arts. You're looking at a Jenga tower and saying "OH lets remove this brick just here and I don't care if the whole tower comes crashing down because the tower was mean to me".

You're throwing out blanket statements and when you get any sort of push back like "well, that would utterly change everything about the class using synergy as intended, it would change huge parts of the class in one single stroke" you answer "JuSt ReMoVe iT".

It's actually lol given you talk about Engineer and the insane amount of output I can do on a Scapper or a Holosmith.

Scrapper has an elite which once gave lots of stealth.

Then Anet doubled the cd.

Then Anet gave it a smokefield.

Then Anet halved the stealth duration.

Then Anet increased the cd by 50%.

Then Anet removed the smokefield.

Then Anet halved the duration again.

It now gives about 3s of stealth on 60s cd.

For an elite skill.

And thieves whine about the smokefield on pistol 5 they've been using to abuse permastealth the past 11 years.

(also lets not talk about how they deleted the scrapper as the best anti-stealth class due to the detection pulse change)

Edited July 28, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[bq pd.2148]

16 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

It now gives about 3s of stealth on 60s cd.

For an elite skill.

still better stealth uptime than deadeye elite if it is used only on the scrapper, but wait it is AoE! bloated skill - pls nerf.

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 7/20/2023 at 7:09 PM, bq pd.2148 said:

i am pretty sure the tower/sentry reveal is not a means to balance 1 vs 1 fights that include stealth users, more for larger groups that will stack long stealth with much less resource costs and burst down other larger groups + ofc the fact that marked without reveal used to bug a lot and anet couldn't fix it.

for fighting bound users try using immobilize, that hampers the ability to dodge and usually will require a utility/heal use to break for the thief as you cannot run bound + dash, its either or.

the only reason i would join WvW with thief now is to abuse the shadow portal until Anet will likely one day put the cooldown for it on activation and not on preperation, for most fights are group fights now and any other profession can provide more to that, especially when group size increases.

 

 

i dont think you will get to a point that you can reliably kill thieves just because you are more 'skilled' as the class is inherently designed to pick their fights.
without much staying power to trade blows, it has always been: stealth, evade, teleport. neither of those will let you hit them and they are all in their own way annoying to fight against. for what you want thief would have to be reworked from the ground up.

I dont think it needs to be reworked completely. Just give all classes the ability to reveal. And take the ability to remove reveal away from thiefs. Problem solved.

[bq pd.2148]

3 minutes ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

I dont think it needs to be reworked completely. Just give all classes the ability to reveal. And take the ability to remove reveal away from thiefs. Problem solved.

thief cannot remove reveal in competitive modes, that part from the deadeye elite has been removed which is why it is now weaker than scrapper elite.

sure the 3 classes still missing a reveal can get one for all i care, i still dont see people sloting them for the reveal specifically. only when i troll larger groups that i couldn't kill anyway for lack of damage, then i see some slot in reveals for reveals sake + throwing target painters.

but at the end of the day the way thief is designed it will always be able to pick the fights better than most other classes.

[Venport.3925]

you know what I might be willing to do is trade the smoke field on pistol 5 for a blast finisher (probably removing the projectile and increasing the blind radius to compensate)

having a blast finisher that isn't shortbow 2 in our weapon kit would be super useful  

I'd maybe drop the initative cost though, 6 for an aoe blind isn't amazing so while I'd hope for 3, 4-5 would probably be realistic

Edited July 28, 2023 by Venport.3925

[cyberzombie.7348]

 

On 7/27/2023 at 3:38 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

TL;DR you can just delete the smokefield.

And screw over the other x/p builds?

[capuchinseven.8395]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Scrapper has an elite which once gave lots of stealth.

Then Anet doubled the cd.

Then Anet gave it a smokefield.

Then Anet halved the stealth duration.

Then Anet increased the cd by 50%.

Then Anet removed the smokefield.

Then Anet halved the duration again.

It now gives about 3s of stealth on 60s cd.

For an elite skill.

Oh cool now you've moved onto Strawmen (stealth has little to with my point about Holosmith or Scarpper BUT again you're a dishonest debater). I'm going to put into big words for you because you like to skirt around the point so you can avoid having to post anything of substance, when you do post it tends to be to pick at single points (like here) so you don't have to address the larger point (because you can't).

NOTHING YOU'VE WRITTEN THERE ABOUT A ELITE SKILL EXPLAINS OR JUSTIFIES GUTTING AT LEAST 3 THIEF BUILDS AND A ENTIRE TRAIT LINE BY REMOVING A INTENDED USE FOR AN ABLITY.

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

abuse

Yes, ANet has allowed players for 11 years to abuse something and they never intended for it to be used that way. kitten kitten.

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

(also lets not talk about how they deleted the scrapper as the best anti-stealth class due to the detection pulse change)

No, lets not because it would be another strawman so you can avoid any actual substance to your posts.

[Dawdler.8521]

25 minutes ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

NOTHING YOU'VE WRITTEN THERE ABOUT A ELITE SKILL EXPLAINS OR JUSTIFIES GUTTING AT LEAST 3 THIEF BUILDS AND A ENTIRE TRAIT LINE BY REMOVING A INTENDED USE FOR AN ABLITY.

No I got other people ie thieves explaining clear as day why it would be justified to gut it. 

I'm not saying gut it though. 

I'm just saying delete the smoke field. 

Such a tiny change.

[Invictorum.7643]

3 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I'm not saying gut it though. 

I'm just saying delete the smoke field. 

That would be gutting it though. The skill has functioned in the way it does since the launch of base GW2. It has an incredibly low power coefficient, costs 6 initiative, and only blinds for 2 seconds on the initial shot.

Thief would need to be given some other basic access to stealth if such a core piece of the weapon was removed. Removing the smoke field from pistol 5, would be like removing any of the auras from ele's focus abilities, or blocks from shield abilities.

[andrewlcl.8176]

4 hours ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

The problem with comments like this, and I understand where you're coming from, is that those sorts of builds (of which I can run) sacrifice a lot to do what you're stating (as well as pick my moments), I can do similar things on other classes and give up a lot less to do it.

 

For the sake of discussion, which other classes, and which other builds? Because I want to learn to play those builds if they can just about instagib with lesser tradeoff than on thief.

The one I immediately think of is Sic em LB Soulbeast. Maybe glass shatter Chrono. With the latter I can even see the set up coming and hightail it before the entire combo completes.

The discussion is actually more complex because in encounters like this, it's also the ability to escape and resustain that makes a difference. With a thief's mobility, there is little chance to escape and/or resustain. 

In that particular example, the thief can execute the entire combo in under 2 seconds with 3 buttons, while still having at least 7 initiative left (usually 10, since thief usually runs trickery). That's at least enough for a follow up of one heartseeker and one shadow shot with natural initiative regen. Assuming thief didn't also bust out Assassin's Signet for more frontloaded damage, we still have open slots for three utilities and an elite skill from which we can pick any number of quality skills like Shadow Step, Blinding Powder, Infiltrator's Signet & Signet of Agility, Scorpion Wire and then Dagger Storm.

There's plenty there to gap-close, disengage and clear condis, especially for what usually is a 10 second fight (or much less).

Also, those numbers I wrote in the earlier post are on a target with 2450 armor, hardly full-glass as the other poster suggested.

I know this is straying away from the main topic of the thread, which is about stealth. But when you can also do all these things, WITH the added ability of stealth, we have a monster roamer in WvW that annihilates almost anyone else in a 1v1. I'm not asking for blanket nerfs. Balance is not my job. I also like to play thief. Just not those kinds of instagib variants.

Edited July 28, 2023 by andrewlcl.8176