Thief is just a weird mix of stuff

[Mell.4873]

I find it funny for a solo themed class about 5-7k of its dps can come from sharing venoms or torment with its allies. 

On top of that all the highest DPS builds involve spamming one skill while getting as much initiative back as possible. While golem testing I noticed the Snowcrow builds even while recommend other weapons for your second slot. Had the video showcase just using two of the same weapon so you can swap every 10 seconds for 3 initiative.

Thief has come along way from spamming staff 1 with Quickness in HoT but still it needs more options for DPS. Lets hope main-hand Axe can remedy some of this. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

On top of that all the highest DPS builds involve spamming one skill while getting as much initiative back as possible. While golem testing I noticed even the Snowcrow builds even while recommend other weapons for your second slot. Had the video showcase just using two of the same weapon so you can swap every 10 seconds for 3 initiative.

i would guess you are talking about the condition spectre build here, the pistol offhand is an option if more CC is needed but you wouldn't see that in the video even if it was equipped for there is no CC during the bench, you would then use a rotation similar to that in the condi alac spectre build - just dump some more ini before the first shroud.

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Theif has come along way from spamming staff 1 with Quickness in HoT but still it needs more options for DPS. Lets hope main-hand Axe can remedy some of this. 

very unlikely. with the initiative system instead of cooldowns and lack of DPS increasing synergy between weapon skills, the rotations will only use few weapon skills.

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i would guess you are talking about the condition spectre build here, the pistol offhand is an option if more CC is needed but you wouldn't see that in the video even if it was equipped for there is no CC during the bench, you would then use a rotation similar to that in the condi alac spectre build - just dump some more ini before the first shroud..

Yeah I was mostly referencing that. It seems like rifle Deadeye also suffers this fate. 

I was trying to match the benchmarks dps and I was getting about 10k less when just following Snowcrows and not the Video. 

Mostly I was looking for a good escuse to run Celestial or a hybrid Thief but is seems like i need the New expansion to drop for that to be a reality. 

 

[Vidit.7108]

22 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

On top of that all the highest DPS builds involve spamming one skill while getting as much initiative back as possible.

Well that's not totally fair anymore. You can do pretty good damage spamming one skill but the top damage is more involved than that at the moment, like the classic pour weakening charge into a burst with all modifiers up still works but it isn't the best damage anymore. Except really condi-daredevil which is just spamming 3 and dodging with little management, i don't think there is a build that is only about spamming and ini generation.

It's still basically true that only one initiative skill is valuable across all the builds but on most of them the stuff in-between presses is really important. Especially after they buffed the damage from bound which opened up impairing daggers into being useful practically for the first time. Deadeye uses more than one initiative skill though after just the last patch it's a lot of effort for a fraction of more damage than daredevil. Most specter builds spend a lot more time in shroud now though they are just spamming twilight combo when out of shroud, you still spend more time doing something else other than pressing 3 for the top damage.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Vidit.7108

[Mell.4873]

48 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Well that's not totally fair anymore. You can do pretty good damage spamming one skill but the top damage is more involved than that at the moment, like the classic pour weakening charge into a burst with all modifiers up still works but it isn't the best damage anymore. Except really condi-daredevil which is just spamming 3 and dodging with little management, i don't think there is a build that is only about spamming and ini generation.

It's still basically true that only one initiative skill is valuable across all the builds but on most of them the stuff in-between presses is really important. Especially after they buffed the damage from bound which opened up impairing daggers into being useful practically for the first time. Deadeye uses more than one initiative skill though after just the last patch it's a lot of effort for a fraction of more damage than daredevil. Most specter builds spend a lot more time in shroud now though they are just spamming twilight combo when out of shroud, you still spend more time doing something else other than pressing 3 for the top damage.

Yeah I do agree. Right now that could be true for both Ranger and Mesmer my main. 

On the surface there skill rotations are not very complex and by the book you do very little but the nuances is where the power of Ranger and Mesmer is. 

I feel like when I master Thief I can avoid damage, be able to maximize break bar times and support allies especially with Specter. That in a sense what I want to push my Thief into. A really good solo open world class. 

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Every condi thief build has itself a mirror.  A secret build that doesn't get talked about much, mostly because the builds are made assuming teammates and groups.  If you're running solo or fighting groups of enemies, consider swapping out the venoms for skills like Caltrops, Pitfall Trap, Dagger Storm, Impairing Daggers or Signet of Agility (Daredevil), and Well of Sorrow (Specter).  These don't rely on teammates, and also most of them will scale up to enemy numbers instead of diluting (except for Impairing Daggers).  

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Every condi thief build has itself a mirror.  A secret build that doesn't get talked about much, mostly because the builds are made assuming teammates and groups.  If you're running solo or fighting groups of enemies, consider swapping out the venoms for skills like Caltrops, Pitfall Trap, Dagger Storm, Impairing Daggers or Signet of Agility (Daredevil), and Well of Sorrow (Specter).  These don't rely on teammates, and also most of them will scale up to enemy numbers instead of diluting (except for Impairing Daggers).  

Yeah, I got a sense of that in my testing. I will probably return to Thief when Axe get released since it highly likely that will be hybrid weapon.

I really want to run Celestials set which right now there is no real point on Thief.

[bq pd.2148]

23 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I really want to run Celestials set which right now there is no real point on Thief.

what exactly do you want to do with celestial stats? because i can't see that ever topping DPS charts on any profession or being optimal for...well any group role.

however most classes can use celestial for solo builds of some sort, thief included - if you have difficulty coming up with a build to your taste there are some content creators out there with builds and guides on how to use them. personally would not consider them much outside soloing instanced group content, because OW most basic enemies are best dealt with power damage and many champs (e.g. HoT HPs)  will also go down easily with meta DPS builds, especially when you use Jade Protocols.

Edited August 5, 2023 by bq pd.2148

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

what exactly do you want to do with celestial stats? because i can't see that ever topping DPS charts on any profession or being optimal for...well any group role.

however most classes can use celestial for solo builds of some sort, thief included - if you have difficulty coming up with a build to your taste there are some content creators out there with builds and guides on how to use them. personally would not consider them much outside soloing instanced group content, because OW most basic enemies are best dealt with power damage and many champs (e.g. HoT HPs)  will also go down easily with meta DPS builds, especially when you use Jade Protocols.

Its more i just want to start with Celestials since it will be more forgiving on my gameplay and strategy. I also run Celestials on my unkillable Untamed build so hopefully I can replicate it.

[Antrix.4512]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I really want to run Celestials set which right now there is no real point on Thief.

I'm currently using Celestial gear for two out of my thief's five builds - both Condi Deadeye and Specter. The first one is an unkillable machine, capable of facetanking legendaries without any problems. You can only die if you really want to, but even then, you'd have to walk away from the keyboard, preferably not just into another room but to a neighboring region of your country. The second one is just for laid-back gaming. If I need to kill someone really quickly and I know for sure that I can withstand the incoming non-avoidable damage, then I go for Power Deadeye build in Berserker gear. I have tried, and I think I'm still trying to understand what's preventing you from using Celestial gear right now, but I can't, no matter how hard I try.

[Szymon.5369]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Its more i just want to start with Celestials since it will be more forgiving on my gameplay and strategy. I also run Celestials on my unkillable Untamed build so hopefully I can replicate it.

Celestial on Specter is absolutely serviceable as your: initial setup for AlacDPS, your open world build and your (actually legitimately strong) WvW build, so the future is now.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:56 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Its more i just want to start with Celestials since it will be more forgiving on my gameplay and strategy. I also run Celestials on my unkillable Untamed build so hopefully I can replicate it.

The main issue in terms of sustain that you will run into is that almost all the sustain thief has is dependant on hitting an enemy, so where other classes can kite and heal up with thief you're going to struggle to sustain against anything that doesn't outright tank the attacks. That said, cele deadeye and specter are really nice for solo PvE, you just have to be aware of the limits of the base class. 

[kidbuu.4071]

On 8/5/2023 at 3:04 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I really want to run Celestials set which right now there is no real point on Thief

I may have taken the above statement out of context , and for that, I sincerely apologize in advance. With that said, celestial stats play a big role for thief, specifically in two modes of gameplay.

Solo Open world content- both the specter and the dead eye have some amazing gameplay with celestial gear for sustainability and survivability for the most challenging of content ( shout out to Lord Hizen)

Solo competitive combat- WvW condition/ support specter can run full celestial gear. It can Heal small groups, is a successful 1v1 roamer, and in the right hands is even a competent 1vX. Yes, I  intentionally left out celestial pistol pistol Daredevil ( that which shall not be named). 

I too am looking forward to axe and hoping it's a hybrid weapon (hoping for a secondary support weapon with synergy for quickness in group content) 

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, kidbuu.4071 said:

I may have taken the above statement out of context , and for that, I sincerely apologize in advance. With that said, celestial stats play a big role for thief, specifically in two modes of gameplay.

Solo Open world content- both the specter and the dead eye have some amazing gameplay with celestial gear for sustainability and survivability for the most challenging of content ( shout out to Lord Hizen)

Solo competitive combat- WvW condition/ support specter can run full celestial gear. It can Heal small groups, is a successful 1v1 roamer, and in the right hands is even a competent 1vX. Yes, I  intentionally left out celestial pistol pistol Daredevil ( that which shall not be named). 

I too am looking forward to axe and hoping it's a hybrid weapon (hoping for a secondary support weapon with synergy for quickness in group content) 

I agree but compared to my other Celestial geared classes Thief is not quite there yet. 

If I elaborate this is the crux of my issue. I'm a Mesmer and Ranger main so I can play these two infinity better than Thief.  Untill I fully understand what I'm playing and even decide it's not as good it hard to me to justify playing it. 

Once Axe drops I'll give it another try. Currently my Celestial Untamed can solo any Legendary Boss in the game so not much can compete with that even my Mesmer. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Mell.4873

[bq pd.2148]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I agree but compared to my other Celestial geared classes Thief is not quite there yet. 

If a elaborate this is the crux of my issue. I'm a Mesmer and Ranger main so I can play these two infinity better than Thief.  Untill I fully understand what I'm playing and even decide it's not as good it hard to me to justify playing it. 

Once Axe drops I'll give it another try. Currently my Celestial Untamed can solo any Legendary Boss in the game so not much can compete with that even my Mesmer. 

d/d deadeye can solo many legendaries because it has good boon spamm from m7,  a lot of evade uptime from using death's blossom for malice gain and alot of heals from shadow arts trait especially leeching venoms. however it is a melee build and some bosses are better done on range, for that i would imagine scepter dagger deadeye will soon be best when the expansion is here, coupled with utilities similar to rifle deadeye PvE build so you dont have to go melee for malice reset.

further i would suggest actually giving power deadeye a chance for soloing stuff, that is because you have permanent protection from m7, can have permanent projectile denial from rifle and can turn 6% damage into healing with 1 trait swap in critical strikes.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

d/d deadeye can solo many legendaries because it has good boon spamm from m7,  a lot of evade uptime from using death's blossom for malice gain and alot of heals from shadow arts trait especially leeching venoms. however it is a melee build and some bosses are better done on range, for that i would imagine scepter dagger deadeye will soon be best when the expansion is here, coupled with utilities similar to rifle deadeye PvE build so you dont have to go melee for malice reset.

further i would suggest actually giving power deadeye a chance for soloing stuff, that is because you have permanent protection from m7, can have permanent projectile denial from rifle and can turn 6% damage into healing with 1 trait swap in critical strikes.

All great suggests