[SOTO SPOILERS - CHAP 7] possession and what leads to death

[penguin.7536]

I want to preface this by saying I know Guild Wars 2's method of introducing and killing off characters isn't exactly new, a few missions of spotlight before characters eat the dust are common. I don't always have problems with this - for instance, Blish was probably the most unquestionable 'deaths' in terms of "we got to know that character but they have to die" - but this really bugs me. I'd also like to say despite the odd thing here or there that I really enjoyed SOTO. I think all the new lore and occasional retcorns are, for the most part, fun.

Spoiler

But what reason, exactly, do we have, that means Mabon has to die for being possessed by Cerus? Is there any explanation?

It feels like they finally introduced an interesting Mursaat character after doing Lazarus so dirty, and then immediately offed him to further Zojja's character. That just put a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since we meet Isgarren in the same state and just fix him because he's not on the chopping block RIGHT after.

So I'm asking, legitimately, is there a reason that him, or a wayward NPC, HAS to die to a demon possessing them? Did I miss something? Or did we just not use the Heart to purify those people, just because they were too far gone? Did they write anything about the logistics of this? I'm so frustrated.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by penguin.7536

[EdwinLi.1284]

1 hour ago, penguin.7536 said:

I want to preface this by saying I know Guild Wars 2's method of introducing and killing off characters isn't exactly new, a few missions of spotlight before characters eat the dust are common. I don't always have problems with this - for instance, Blish was probably the most unquestionable 'deaths' in terms of "we got to know that character but they have to die" - but this really bugs me. I'd also like to say despite the odd thing here or there that I really enjoyed SOTO. I think all the new lore and occasional retcorns are, for the most part, fun.

  Hide contents

But what reason, exactly, do we have, that means Mabon has to die for being possessed by Cerus? Is there any explanation?

It feels like they finally introduced an interesting Mursaat character after doing Lazarus so dirty, and then immediately offed him to further Zojja's character. That just put a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since we meet Isgarren in the same state and just fix him because he's not on the chopping block RIGHT after.

So I'm asking, legitimately, is there a reason that him, or a wayward NPC, HAS to die to a demon possessing them? Did I miss something? Or did we just not use the Heart to purify those people, just because they were too far gone? Did they write anything about the logistics of this? I'm so frustrated.

 

I can only guess that they just killed Mabon off for the sake of character development for Zojja and to set her up for her proper lore reason to retire from Main Storyline Character status being she may becomes a major leader of the Wizard's Court near the end of SoO which we know will be something that prevents her from returning to Tyria again if she accepts. 

Every other character from Elder Dragon Era all have their retirement plans set up already but Zojja is the only one left without a Main Character Status retirement plan. 

They could have done this without killing off Mabon but most of the time killing off a character is also a way for them to end the physical appearance use of the character in the storyline even for lesser cameo appearances. 

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As for death by possession, certain NPCs have been seeing being killed after being possessed when events ends. I am guessing if the demon's influence on the possessed person is far too strong then the demon may end up killing the person as a result if their physical limit is low enough. 

Considering this, Mabon may have been near his limit physically with his own possession since he has been fighting it off for a long time mentally already. Isgarren was still not at his physical limit yet despite his mental limit being at the edge. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[penguin.7536]

1 hour ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

They could have done this without killing off Mabon but most of the time killing off a character is also a way for them to end the physical appearance use of the character in the storyline even for lesser cameo appearances. 

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As for death by possession, certain NPCs have been seeing being killed after being possessed when events ends. I am guessing if the demon's influence on the possessed person is far too strong then the demon may end up killing the person as a result if their physical limit is low enough. 

Considering this, Mabon may have been near his limit physically with his own possession since he has been fighting it off for a long time mentally already. Isgarren was still not at his physical limit yet despite his mental limit being at the edge. 

I totally agree and that would make the most sense! It wasn't surprising (since he pretty much tells you that you're gonna have to cut him down) I'm just wondering if it's written down somewhere and that I missed it. Especially with how the demons function, it'd be nice to know.

I'm not even bothered that Mabon dies really, especially for a character who needs to be impacted that way that we all know and love, I just wish that like... there was a written dialogue surrounding why is occurred. Maybe there is and I'm not finding it. We spend so much time purifying corruption off of other NPCs and a boatload of demons pop out of them during the events that it just doesn't make sense to me that we didn't try.

[GeraldBC.4927]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:46 AM, penguin.7536 said:

Spoiler

I'm not even bothered that Mabon dies really, especially for a character who needs to be impacted that way that we all know and love, I just wish that like... there was a written dialogue surrounding why is occurred.

 

There kind of is but not really. 

Spoiler

It comes out in the final fight against Cerus. Mabon didn't die from the Commander's attempt to cleanse him, Cerus killed him just for fun. 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by GeraldBC.4927

[Not Trying.4901]

Yup garbage writing.

Blue thrall saved, blue not mabon saved, dwarf saved.

Mabon, and that random sylvari that was in the cave before blue jesus, naw who cares about them just let them die.

How we supposed to care about the story if the characters in it don't care about their fellow characters.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

spoilers for secrets of the obscure

mabon didn't die because he was possessed, he died because cerus killed him intentionally (which is stated in the final fight). the sylvari died because we didn't have zojja's help to exercise the demon, as she wasn't prepared like she was against dagda as we got ambushed.

 

he also could've killed isgarren, but wanted to save him as a trophy for eparch.

Edited August 26, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:38 AM, Not Trying.4901 said:

Yup garbage writing.

Blue thrall saved, blue not mabon saved, dwarf saved.

Mabon, and that random sylvari that was in the cave before blue jesus, naw who cares about them just let them die.

How we supposed to care about the story if the characters in it don't care about their fellow characters.

I'd love to see the parts about nobody caring that Mabon died. Because I didn't see them.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:46 AM, penguin.7536 said:

I totally agree and that would make the most sense! It wasn't surprising (since he pretty much tells you that you're gonna have to cut him down) I'm just wondering if it's written down somewhere and that I missed it. Especially with how the demons function, it'd be nice to know.

I'm not even bothered that Mabon dies really, especially for a character who needs to be impacted that way that we all know and love, I just wish that like... there was a written dialogue surrounding why is occurred. Maybe there is and I'm not finding it. We spend so much time purifying corruption off of other NPCs and a boatload of demons pop out of them during the events that it just doesn't make sense to me that we didn't try.

Furthering on what @SoftFootpaws.9134 said, Cerus is established, particularly in the final battle, to be one who prefers to kill those he possesses. He feeds off them, toys with them, and kills them in short order. So it isn't so much that "possession leads to death" but "Cerus used his possession of Mabon to kill him". It was ultimately done to further torment Isgarren, whom Cerus was not allowed to kill because Eparch wanted Isgarren delivered alive, and Cerus needed to weaken Isgarren further still at that point in time. As Cerus taunted in the battle if you don't immediately go to Isgarren, Cerus loosened his grip on Isgarren just long enough for Isgarren to realize that Mabon is dying, but not long enough to do anything about it.

Different demons treat their prey differently - some want them to last as long as possible to get the most "fine tasting wine" (to use one demon's phrasing) out of the victims. Others will kill them off relatively quickly. It shows that demons are not uniformed, even if the kryptis are uniquely united under Eparch's leadership.

[EdwinLi.1284]

10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Different demons treat their prey differently - some want them to last as long as possible to get the most "fine tasting wine" (to use one demon's phrasing) out of the victims. Others will kill them off relatively quickly. It shows that demons are not uniformed, even if the kryptis are uniquely united under Eparch's leadership.

Uniquely united is a colorful way to describe their tolerance to Eparch's rule. More like they feel they cannot do much about it at this point since from what is said, the kryptis are split between those who just follow Eparch because he they just enjoy the harm he can cause and victims he gives them with his plans or they just tolerate him but greatly hate him since they know he is literally eating their species of Demons into extinction. 

 

Either way it seems the majority are at the edge of betraying Eparch but just need to see something who can be strong enough to defeat him to bring that final push.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Uniquely united is a colorful way to describe their tolerance to Eparch's rule. More like they feel they cannot do much about it at this point since from what is said, the kryptis are split between those who just follow Eparch because he they just enjoy the harm he can cause and victims he gives them with his plans or they just tolerate him but greatly hate him since they know he is literally eating their species of Demons into extinction. 

 

Either way it seems the majority are at the edge of betraying Eparch but just need to see something who can be strong enough to defeat him to bring that final push.

I was just using Forbe's and Zojja's own wording from the start of SotO, tbh. That's the situation now, but based on lore books and dialogues, it doesn't seem to have always been that way. Not surprising though, given that it's a demon society.

Still, the typical demon society is... literally every (de)man for themself. Without "houses" or titles.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Imba.9451]

Honestly, I feared about Mabon dying from the moment we met him. He was just too good. And we all know what happens with good, caring and powerful Mentor figures in fiction.

While I, as a certified Mursaat-fanboy do not like him being killed off, his character was way too one-dimensional to work with any further, unless given a proper spotlight and a big amount of screentime. He could be summed up in 2 words: Mursaat redemption.

And even though there is a sting in this, I am willing to accept this, as long as they keep working with what they established here: First, that there are still Mursaat existing, probably hiding somehwere and second, that they are not the bloodthirsty, one dimensional bad guys from GW1 anymore. And given that the game greatly tries to imply this, I am actually hopeful that we see more of them in the future, with Mabon being a blatant story device to tell the player: They are potential, powerful allies.

[Netrizhul.3429]

Actually I'm glad Mabon died not because of lore reason but voice actors. Liam is doing one thing, making Illidan voices in all characters. Dude has no range. Just one voice.

[Imba.9451]

5 hours ago, Netrizhul.3429 said:

Actually I'm glad Mabon died not because of lore reason but voice actors. Liam is doing one thing, making Illidan voices in all characters. Dude has no range. Just one voice.

Check count Waltz from eternal Sonata. he can do different voices.

But I get what you mean. I noticed that he has the same issue as Aurene: being an incredibly benevolent character, with a constant gasping voice. My personal conspiracy theory: Someone in voice direction during recording sessions stubbornly clings to the false notion that constant gasping adds tension. I blamed Aurenes voice actor before, but I am not so sure anymore that my disdain was directed at the right person.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Imba.9451

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Netrizhul.3429 said:

Actually I'm glad Mabon died not because of lore reason but voice actors. Liam is doing one thing, making Illidan voices in all characters. Dude has no range. Just one voice.

I dunno man. Gavin, Kensho (from Guild Hall), Smodur, Myrun, Kanaxai, and Mabon don't exactly sound the same to me. You can hear some similarities here and there but there's some nice range too.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Aurene's VA never really bothered me personally, most of the VA that does kinda bother me was in GW1 and core. Though some of the awful VA work in factions was at least fun to laugh at.

[Imba.9451]

2 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Aurene's VA never really bothered me personally, most of the VA that does kinda bother me was in GW1 and core. Though some of the awful VA work in factions was at least fun to laugh at.

I run Dragons End regulary. Not even Yaos constant snappy comments during Kaineng Meta became as annoying as hearing Aurene to me. Although I have to admit, Soo.Wons dialogue during the final fight also could have been taken out of a 13-year olds attempt of writing exercise. I try to avoid the use of the word cringe when possible, but it just fits perfectly here.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Imba.9451

[Eekasqueak.7850]

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

I run Dragons End regulary. Not even Yaos constant snappy comments during Kaineng Meta became as annoying as hearing Aurene to me. Although I have to admit, Soo.Wons dialogue during the final fight also could have been taken out of a 13-year olds attempt of writing exercise. I try to avoid the use of the word cringe when possible, but it just fits perfectly here.

Idk I thought it was fine but most of the GW1 and core stuff was either super forgettable for me or stood out for how bad it was. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Idk I thought it was fine but most of the GW1 and core stuff was either super forgettable for me or stood out for how bad it was. 

A lot of GW1's VA issue comes from the delivery more than the writing, imo, while a lot of GW2's VA issue comes more from the writing than the delivery.

But that's just me, personally.

Wouldn't say that Aurene and Soo-Won in Dragon's End is worse than Yao's "friendly neighborhood non-binary" introduction though.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

4 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

A lot of GW1's VA issue comes from the delivery more than the writing, imo, while a lot of GW2's VA issue comes more from the writing than the delivery.

But that's just me, personally.

Wouldn't say that Aurene and Soo-Won in Dragon's End is worse than Yao's "friendly neighborhood non-binary" introduction though.

Problem is I was very young when I played 1 so I can't judge the writing that well. 

[draxynnic.3719]

(Huh, wrote most of this up over ten hours ago and then forgot to finish and post it)

I think there's something being missed here:

Cerus wasn't the one possessing Mabon - but Cerus did enjoy forcing Isgarren to watch impotently as Mabon died.

It's easy to miss, but the demon that did possess Mabon - Asthenes - had a special ability whereby it had linked its own life force with Mabon. So unlike the majority of demons where it is possible to expel and kill the possessing demon to release the victim, there was no way to dispatch Asthenes without also killing Mabon. From the Watsonian perspective, then, it seems to be a trait of certain Kryptis that they can latch onto their victim so hard they can't be exorcised without killing the victim. Peetha makes a few comments around the time about someone being overly devoted to Eparch, so it's possible that Asthenes was devoted enough that it was effectively a suicide mission - as opposed to "Vanda's hive" possessing Dagda where Vanda never even made an appearance.

From the Doylist perspective, Mabon was obviously fridged to further Zojja's character development.

[penguin.7536]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:13 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's easy to miss, but the demon that did possess Mabon - Asthenes - had a special ability whereby it had linked its own life force with Mabon. So unlike the majority of demons where it is possible to expel and kill the possessing demon to release the victim, there was no way to dispatch Asthenes without also killing Mabon.

Thank you for posting this, this eventually lead me to finding the wiki page for Asthenes and it was an interesting read!

[Kalavier.1097]

On 9/30/2023 at 9:13 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

(Huh, wrote most of this up over ten hours ago and then forgot to finish and post it)

I think there's something being missed here:

Cerus wasn't the one possessing Mabon - but Cerus did enjoy forcing Isgarren to watch impotently as Mabon died.

It's easy to miss, but the demon that did possess Mabon - Asthenes - had a special ability whereby it had linked its own life force with Mabon. So unlike the majority of demons where it is possible to expel and kill the possessing demon to release the victim, there was no way to dispatch Asthenes without also killing Mabon. From the Watsonian perspective, then, it seems to be a trait of certain Kryptis that they can latch onto their victim so hard they can't be exorcised without killing the victim. Peetha makes a few comments around the time about someone being overly devoted to Eparch, so it's possible that Asthenes was devoted enough that it was effectively a suicide mission - as opposed to "Vanda's hive" possessing Dagda where Vanda never even made an appearance.

From the Doylist perspective, Mabon was obviously fridged to further Zojja's character development.

It also explains why some of the characters we encounter are outright killed vs freed of possession. Like the Sylvari near Dadga, and the healer at the debate hall of the Bastion of Balance.