Look I get it, but the Wizard's Vault is really not that bad! Lets compare the rewards...

[Zeno Iagara.8540]

You are comparing a log-in reward system with a daily action system.  The items you listed from the old system were purely for logging in, you didn't have to do anything else for them.  So, to compare the old with the new you have to use the same basis, purely logging-in.  Therefore after 77 days of logging in only, you have 385 AA (5 per day * 77 days), now try to buy all the original log-in rewards with the 385AA and see how far you get.

[Jilora.9524]

All they have to do is removed that initial checkbox where you chose wvw pvp pve and just give everyone all 9 choices but limit us to astral w/e on 3 then maybe give 10s to any extra ones you do for the people that do all modes and get more then the 3 done.

[CatinaHumanSuit.2504]

I like the new system, the only flaw for me is - as pretty much every has said - the lack of choice. Loads of potential fixes for that, like adding 1 of each category on top of the 3 you've picked or "swap one daily for one from a different category" or whatever

Choosing rewards is great. It was never going to map exactly onto what went before, and that's fine with me. Its balanced since everyone gets the same options. It's a more interactive system that the passive income of the previous one

[Chowley.6217]

What worries me is they have taken away an incentive for lots of high level players to go back to starting zones for dailies. When I am levelling it's always nice to have that occur and see all the signs of life and when I'm on one of my lvl80 chars it was a novelty to go back there. 

Now I will only go to low or mid level maps for world boss or collections. 

[Cernoch.8524]

1 hour ago, Hsanrb.1570 said:

People will learn the love the Wizards Vault once the kinks are worked out. Developers cannot see everything when they launch a system... but the amount of forum/reddit/social media armchair calculating formula driven optimization that is going on with the expansion is insane. Does this hurt people who have multiple accounts yes, but does ANet think getting their players to play the game and not just pick the 3 lowest hanging fruit to get their 2g and move on with their day is not productive. 

The problem is, if you do the dailies in the old system, you got 2g plus "stuff", if you do them in Wizards Vault... you get some "stuff" (I am not precise) but you also get currency to buy the things that appear in the login reward, or wait for something better. You go from "We give you stuff on a schedule" to "We let you get currency and you can play when you want and buy what you want whenever you want."

Why should Arenanet support a system where someone goes "I cannot play today, but I must log in, click a button, and log out." that is "unproductive activity" and they want to let people play on their own schedule, not because if you miss a day it just disappears. If you only have one session a week, do the dailies... do the weeklies, and start on the seasonals and you come out farther ahead than someone who just logged in 7 days and played for <5m.

In this system, if you play and do dailies only once a week and then dont play in 6 days, you miss still a lot more than in old system, you are still missing 65AA and 1g for every day you didnt play. I did not say it is wrong or right, just that the math was comparing two different things. And believe it or not, this system force you to play more than the old one.

[Spook.5847]

15 hours ago, Mervil.7461 said:

Hi! SO much whining going on! But the Wizard's Vault rewards are actually not that bad! (I wish I could make a table...). These two separate lists compare the rewards that were previously available with how much of the same reward you can get now.

Previous log-in rewards (per 28days):

• Gold: ZERO (well, 2 gold for actually completing the daily rewards, not just logging in, so that is 56g in 28 days if doing the dailies).
• Permanent 2% gold increase: 1
• Laurels: 35 (with option of 20 more, but only if you select it from Loyalty Chest)
• Mystic Coins: 20
• Obsidian Shard: 8 (only if you select it from Loyalty Chest)
• Mystic Clovers: 7 (only if you select it from Loyalty Chest)
• Vision Crystal: 1, if you select it
• Ascended Crafting Mats: a quaint few, if you select it
• Luck: 2000
• Tomes of Knowledge: 10 (with option of getting 6 more, but only if you select it from Loyalty Chest)
• Celebration Boosters: 1
• Transmutation Charges: 3
• Crafting Materials: varies -- up to 15 from each tier
• Exotic Equipment: 1 random piece
• Chest of Black Lion Goods: 4. Or in other words. meh...

So, you can multiply those values by 2.5 and you get approximately how many rewards you would theoretically get in 2.5 months (~77 days) on the old system.

Now, the NEW system! you ready for this? It's not that bad!

New log-in rewards (what is it, about every 77 days?)

• Astral Acclaim: 14825 (a crap ton to buy more rewards with!)
• Gold: 77 just from the daily chest. An additional 90 available via acclaim (for cheap) with "unlimited" more gold available (at higher price).
• Permanent 1% gold increase: 2 available for total of 2% gold increase (ok, this one is not as good, BUT you can get a whole bunch of actual gold)
• Laurels: 110 from weekly chest . An additional 150 are available via acclaim.
• Mystic Coins: 60 via acclaim.
• Obsidian Shards: 20 via acclaim.
• Mystic Clovers: 20 via acclaim.
• Vision Crystals: 4 via acclaim.
• Ascended Crafting Mats: none. But you can actually buy ascended gear instead!
• Luck: 3850 from daily chest. 2000 more luck available via acclaim.
• Tomes of Knowledge: 11 from weekly chest. 35 more available via acclaim.
• Celebration Boosters: 11 from weekly chest.
• Transmutation Charges: 30 via acclaim.
• Crafting Materials: 30 heavy bags via acclaim. That is 90 T6 mats. "unlimited" large bags (10-20 T5 mats per bag).
• Exotic Equipment: none. shewt. but oh wait! Ascended equipment instead!
• Chest of Black Lion Goods: none, but that's probably ok. you CAN still buy the items you would otherwise get, such as revive orbs, upgrade extractors, etc. But you probably have plenty now.

If you get all the daily and weekly chests, AND purchase all the extra gold, laurels, mystic coins, mystic clovers, luck, vision crystals, etc with your astral acclaim, you will still have 6445 astral acclaim left over to pick from many other rewards, including mount skins, armor and weapon skins, mastery track progress, emotes, build template and build storage expansions, and legendary starter kits. Guys... this new system is FINE. We're going to be ok.

Sure, there are less activities to do for your dailies. But look at it this way--you get more rewards for doing less!

Forced tasks - especially junk like JPs, fractals, and metas, are very off-putting.  The implementation of this, and the rune nerfing/destruction fiasco are beyond abysmal, no matter what rewards you can potentially get by grinding the assigned chores :/

[Spook.5847]

13 hours ago, Mervil.7461 said:

I'm sorry! I don't see why people are upset about playing the game.

A lot of the old-times (those who havent already quit in disgust) are pretty sick of constant nerfs (and stealth changes), taking away things that were given to us, etc.  Most of the bad things about this game were never addressed (i.e., targeting), and the continually pollute PvE with balances intended for the other game modes (and vice-versa to an extent).  The lack of imagination, and flat out sadism are simply tiring.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

1 hour ago, Zeno Iagara.8540 said:

You are comparing a log-in reward system with a daily action system.  The items you listed from the old system were purely for logging in, you didn't have to do anything else for them.  So, to compare the old with the new you have to use the same basis, purely logging-in.  Therefore after 77 days of logging in only, you have 385 AA (5 per day * 77 days), now try to buy all the original log-in rewards with the 385AA and see how far you get.

Correct, this expansion is selling you back what you already had.  

[TabrisTiGraf.8591]

I'm trying to look at this from different points. 
I lost my daily login reward that i liked so much. Sometimes i got login and find good thing to do and could play for hours. Now i don't have this luxury. And this is dissapoint me. I tried my best but i still don't like this expantion.
As for the vault - i think it's good enough to be the new game feature. I almost never did dailys but this rewards give me some good choices. But for now i will wait for something that will give me more time free rewards or for the next expantion.  

[Jianyu.7065]

13 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

When a company feels the need to pay me to not enjoy my time in the game they are on the wrong track in my opinion.

I enjoyed doing dailies that I chose before the WV was introduced. I could decide to hunt other players for Invasion Defender, or choose to do events in a PvE zone that I found aesthetically pleasing and engaging, or any number of fun activities. This isnt about getting rewards more easily, I could spend real money on gems for greater gold gain than any other method of acquisition in the game if I wanted to, its about enjoying the process. Getting rewarded for doing cool things in a game is what ticks the box for me, and perhaps others. The new system lessens that. Add in the issues with completing dailies with a group of friends and the fun factor goes down further.

 

....and, by the way, whining about other people complaining about a product they paid for is not any better.

The previous version of dailies was still a random set with the expectation of there being the same themes over and over, but they were still random, and I think the illusion of choice is throwing some people off the mark here. It's not like you could choose which zone you wanted to complete 4 events in etc.

I believe now we're just working with a new system of delivering daily rewards for engaging in a variety of content - but it's not quite "there" yet; some tweaks and upgrades are still needed. With that, I think as ANet collects feedback, we will see the new system evolve into something more tangible. Personally, I enjoy the idea of completing daily rewards that are pretty much locked in to simply playing the game, well...anywhere. And then with the weekly rewards being a more specific set of tasks that hopefully take place in zones I don't normally frequent - I would enjoy this.

Most of what is being debated regarding these changes are subjective, and some of it - positive or negative - isn't very constructive at all; it's not getting us anywhere.

I think, in pve terms, killing 10 veterans isn't anymore fun than getting ported to the end of a JP. I honestly had more fun completing Jade Crisis than doing 4 events in a player clogged beginner zone where you have 20 players doing an escort and you're just hoping you can at least get one or two hits in.

In the end - I agree that complaining about other people who are complaining is counterproductive. But nobody was forced to buy anything from ANet and I don't believe that gives anyone the entitlement to essentially "review bomb" ANet over their own personal disappointment of something they purchased. ANet isn't deliberately seeking to disappointment or negatively impact the players experience - which is why most of this back and forth is over our subjective experiences.  We can't forget that liking or disliking these changes are opinions. There is no data on enjoyment - plus or minus. But there is data on what is being rewarded to players as we acclimate to the new system - and so far in that regard it has proven to be a major plus. 

[Kyniel.4706]

I much prefer the new system - far more engaging (an actual feeling of working towards something), better individual goals (good mix of very general, like salvage X items and very specific like go do a particular mini dungeon). Previous goals were just annoying - go to a particular region and complete a bunch of events was the worst - it could take a long time just searching for events. I like that most of daily goals can now be completed alongside my own goals for the day.

I can see the argument for allowing people to change their preferences more frequently than each week, I can see the argument for giving a little wiggle room over which dailies they complete (especially as they've allowed it for weeklies) to get the final reward.

I personally feel that it's a great system with a few minor rough edges.

[Jianyu.7065]

2 hours ago, Zeno Iagara.8540 said:

You are comparing a log-in reward system with a daily action system.  The items you listed from the old system were purely for logging in, you didn't have to do anything else for them.  So, to compare the old with the new you have to use the same basis, purely logging-in.  Therefore after 77 days of logging in only, you have 385 AA (5 per day * 77 days), now try to buy all the original log-in rewards with the 385AA and see how far you get.

This doesn't really make any sense because if you're JUST logging in for the rewards and then not playing and then not using those daily rewards for anything - then those rewards are basically worthless. You're not getting very far this way either.

However, if you are actually playing the game, this new system is far more rewarding than logging in and doing nothing with basically nothing because you WILL get acclaim and you will use it to buy the rewards. 

[Kalavier.1097]

15 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Em, no. Sure, you get more rewards. But that calculation assumes you're getting all that acclaim in the first place. So, you do get more, for doing more. And having less choice about what you do. Notice, also, that the lower your "completion rate" gets, the worse this comparison becomes.

So, basically, the players that were already at the top of the pyramid get more (but as a result may get more easily burned out). Those that were at lower rungs get less. The gap becomes wider. And player satisfaction from gameplay was apparently not part of the consideration. Heavy farmers will not mind, but most players are not in that category.

Overall, (as often with Anet), the general idea was good, but the actual implementation suffered due to messing up the details. Lot of finetuning and adjustments needed before this system becomes actually good.

Also (but that is my personal, and highly subjective opinion): Oh gods, please, do something about that ugly and crude web ui that got used for Vault. I die inside every time i have to look at it.

I mean, when I logged in yesterday dailies were...

"Complete a heart. Loot 10 enemies. Kill 5 vets"

If people can't even complete tasks like that, then how were they doing the old dailies at all?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

People are free to complain, I just get tired of the level of Hyperbole being thrown around. They really did include stuff people have been asking for too. 

[Ashen.2907]

55 minutes ago, Jianyu.7065 said:

The previous version of dailies was still a random set with the expectation of there being the same themes over and over, but they were still random, and I think the illusion of choice is throwing some people off the mark here. It's not like you could choose which zone you wanted to complete 4 events in etc.

I believe now we're just working with a new system of delivering daily rewards for engaging in a variety of content - but it's not quite "there" yet; some tweaks and upgrades are still needed. With that, I think as ANet collects feedback, we will see the new system evolve into something more tangible. Personally, I enjoy the idea of completing daily rewards that are pretty much locked in to simply playing the game, well...anywhere. And then with the weekly rewards being a more specific set of tasks that hopefully take place in zones I don't normally frequent - I would enjoy this.

Most of what is being debated regarding these changes are subjective, and some of it - positive or negative - isn't very constructive at all; it's not getting us anywhere.

I think, in pve terms, killing 10 veterans isn't anymore fun than getting ported to the end of a JP. I honestly had more fun completing Jade Crisis than doing 4 events in a player clogged beginner zone where you have 20 players doing an escort and you're just hoping you can at least get one or two hits in.

In the end - I agree that complaining about other people who are complaining is counterproductive. But nobody was forced to buy anything from ANet and I don't believe that gives anyone the entitlement to essentially "review bomb" ANet over their own personal disappointment of something they purchased. ANet isn't deliberately seeking to disappointment or negatively impact the players experience - which is why most of this back and forth is over our subjective experiences.  We can't forget that liking or disliking these changes are opinions. There is no data on enjoyment - plus or minus. But there is data on what is being rewarded to players as we acclimate to the new system - and so far in that regard it has proven to be a major plus. 

Having 12 options to choose from meant rarely not having fun options to choose. The choice was not an, "illusion." Sure there may have been an occasional day where the options available were unappealing or unobtainable, in theory at least, but that never happened once for me. Its happened every day under the new system. Who knows, perhaps it will get better, but that choice you call an illusion meant years of enjoying my dailies while removing it has meant the opposite.

And yes, one is entitled to express disatisfaction with a product. Whether you call it, "review bombing," or constructive feedback, or just complaining, customers are in fact entitled to do so. Sure ANet could, in theory, decide that negative reactions to their game are not allowed on the forums they own and operate, it is private property after all, but that wouldn't mean that customers don't have a right to complain, just that they aren't entitled to do so here. Ultimately a perception by the gaming community at large that a company is trying to hide or suppress negative feedback would not do the company any good.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Kalavier.1097]

35 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

People are free to complain, I just get tired of the level of Hyperbole being thrown around. They really did include stuff people have been asking for too. 

That's my problem with a lot of these conversations. People exaggerate to hell and back instead of simply being honest and straightforward with their complaints or ideas.

[Resurgencewins.8614]

Look it's obvious that both sides of this issue, are firmly entrenched on their points. So instead of having a futile debate, where people just rag on each other for feeling different than their side, why can't we have a conversation about how potentially Anet could implement slight changes that might make the most people happy possible. I mean lets face it they'll never make EVERYONE happy. I also think it's obvious, that they're not going to revert back to the old system, after putting in all the effort to build the new one. So maybe a better question to ask NOW would be something along the lines of "To those that are unhappy, how could Anet tweak the new system to better suit your playstyle".

[Jianyu.7065]

21 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Having 12 options to choose from meant rarely not having fun options to choose. The choice was not an, "illusion." Sure there may have been an occasional day where the options available were unappealing or unobtainable, in theory at least, but that never happened once for me. Its happened every day under the new system. Who knows, perhaps it will get better, but that choice you call an illusion meant years of enjoying my dailies while removing it has meant the opposite.

And yes, one is entitled to express disatisfaction with a product. Whether you call it, "review bombing," or constructive feedback, or just complaining, customers are in fact entitled to do so. Sure ANet could, in theory, decide that negative reactions to their game are not allowed on the forums they own and operate, it is private property after all, but that wouldn't mean that customers don't have a right to complain, just that they aren't entitled to do so here. Ultimately a perception by the gaming community at large that a company is trying to hide or suppress negative feedback would not do the company any good.

Having the same rotating tasks in different locations doesn't sound like choice...it more so sounds like routine. Enjoying that experience is subjective - same as not enjoying the changes...for you anyway.

And I think you completely misinterpreted what I meant regarding entitlement. I used the phrase "review bomb" for a specific reason. Because I don't think anyone has the right to say the entire restaurant sucks just because they dont like the flavor of the food. A lot of times people complain for the sake of it - to be a part of the group/mob mentality. In these cases, it's more a personal issue than something being genuinely wrong with a thing. And I just dont agree that anyone has the right to downgrade the quality of a thing over a personal problem.

I never said anything about suppressing feedback, so thanks for adding your thoughts there.