Mabye scarlet was not a evil person!

[Zzik.5873]

Bare with me for a sec.

Maybe Scarlet was the anti-Hero that Tyria needed, she saw the eternal alchemy, maybe the chaos and destruction was just a way to unified Tyria so they could be ready for the dragon/void crisis. And since mordremoth was trying tocontrol her, maybe the path she took was the only way to achive it wihout mordremoth forcing her to stop. Ok Im probably looking to deep into it, but I love Scarlet character design. Would have been super cool in Soto to see a fractal where Scarlet didnt die and was still alive during the void crisis.

[Kalavier.1097]

A theory that goes around is that Scarlet started off that way, wanting to unite a force against the dragons and kill Mordremoth as she refused to bow to any master. But as time went off, her thoughts of what was rebellion was actually what Mordremoth wanted.

[floppypuppy.5789]

Lunacy isn't evil, but I do think Scarlet was one of the very few interesting villains in the gw2 story.  Would like to see something from her again.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A theory that goes around is that Scarlet started off that way, wanting to unite a force against the dragons and kill Mordremoth as she refused to bow to any master. But as time went off, her thoughts of what was rebellion was actually what Mordremoth wanted.

spoilers for end of dragons and secrets of the obscure

its not a just a theory; its confirmed in end of dragons and mai said it directly at the reactor. its been a while since i played it but the line goes something like "she was trying to do the right thing and just went about it the wrong way". judging by all the evidence we have, scarlet lost the battle about halfway through; likely some time after requesting to study the watchknights (though she remains somewhat lucid for a while with the new voicelines, only in the remaster).

 

from what it seems, ceara and scarlet were two different personalities co-existing in a losing battle.

 

@ thread:

we know from living world season 2 that before modremoth, she wasn't a good person, but she wasn't evil either. she was kind of neutral at best, very similar to some of the people we meet in the wizard's tower with their ambiguous morality and sense of justice ("save the world, not the people in it").

Edited September 6, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Lord Korag.8439]

15 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

ready for the dragon/void crisis.

Mordremoth, as all the other Elder Dragons (with the exception of Jormag in their last years maybe), made all in his power to keep the Void and the magic unter control. He used his own, questionable ways, but he did so to preserve the existence of Tyria itself. After all, he was horrified when we defeated him in his mind, as he knew the dangers of the plant spectrum going loose (among others, it worsened the mental state of Kralkatorrik etc.)

If Scarlet was really aiming to overthrow Mordremoth, while she was aware of the Void dangers (which I think she wasn´t, unless Mordremoth told her) she would make Tyria a poor service as none (who knew of the Void back then), not even the Elder Dragons believed the Void could be stopped should they loose control over the magic, especially not with Aurene being just an egg in the lair back then.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Anti-heroes do not massacre thousands of bystandards for the sake of stopping a villain. Anti-heroes are called such because they'll kill villains instead of applying the justice system to them.

In this sense, the Commander is an anti-hero, as they go around mass slaughtering criminals (even their villages, as seen with some hearts).

Scarlet would be an anti-villain - a villain who's goal centralizes or requires the defeat of other villains, in this case Mordremoth. Or rather, that's how Scarlet began.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A theory that goes around is that Scarlet started off that way, wanting to unite a force against the dragons and kill Mordremoth as she refused to bow to any master. But as time went off, her thoughts of what was rebellion was actually what Mordremoth wanted.

The theory makes no sense, and with LWS1R even less so, because the Commander has that united force already. If this was Scarlet's goal, then she could have merely told the Pact and worked with them to take down Mordremoth.

5 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

spoilers for end of dragons and secrets of the obscure

its not a just a theory; its confirmed in end of dragons and mai said it directly at the reactor. its been a while since i played it but the line goes something like "she was trying to do the right thing and just went about it the wrong way". judging by all the evidence we have, scarlet lost the battle about halfway through; likely some time after requesting to study the watchknights (though she remains somewhat lucid for a while with the new voicelines, only in the remaster).

EoD more establishes that Mai Trin believed Scarlet was intending to do the right thing, in an "ends justify the means" sort of way, but honestly her actions do not make sense with such a goal.
It kind of feels like ANet just decided to canonize the player theory that sprung out of the Spinal Backpack blueprint's quote but didn't think about how logical it was.

1 hour ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Mordremoth, as all the other Elder Dragons (with the exception of Jormag in their last years maybe), made all in his power to keep the Void and the magic unter control. He used his own, questionable ways, but he did so to preserve the existence of Tyria itself. After all, he was horrified when we defeated him in his mind, as he knew the dangers of the plant spectrum going loose (among others, it worsened the mental state of Kralkatorrik etc.)

If Scarlet was really aiming to overthrow Mordremoth, while she was aware of the Void dangers (which I think she wasn´t, unless Mordremoth told her) she would make Tyria a poor service as none (who knew of the Void back then), not even the Elder Dragons believed the Void could be stopped should they loose control over the magic, especially not with Aurene being just an egg in the lair back then.

Eh, not really. There is no evidence that the Elder Dragons besides Soo-Won were aware of the Void, and Kralkatorrik's inner battles with "Kralkatorrik's Torment" implies that he certainly didn't. He treated the Torment as more of a piece of himself, rather than influence from an external force. The Elder Dragons were greedily consuming magic without filtering them out properly, including Mordremoth, and this is what drove them further towards insanity - the more greedily they consumed magic freely, the more they were effected by Torment (aka Void-lite).

If they were "doing their best" to hold back the Void as their primary goal, then they would have avoided consuming magic without filtering.

As such, Jormag seems to be the only one, besides Soo-Won, who was actively trying to avoid consuming as much magic as possible, until Icebrood Saga (though there are inconsistencies with Jormag's past actions, like them seemingly trying to avoid confronting Primordus all this time, but Jormag... moved south... towards Primordus... after waking... towards Primordus... who's been awake for 50 years by then...). Mordremoth might have tried "resisting" in the past allowing him to be more cognizant than the others, but he was pretty solidly just consuming all magic, especially Zhaitan's death magic, during HoT. And he's the one who even directed Scarlet to feeding him pure ley-lines, so he wasn't even actively trying by the time of this dragonrise.

[Lord Korag.8439]

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Eh, not really. There is no evidence that the Elder Dragons besides Soo-Won were aware of the Void, and Kralkatorrik's inner battles with "Kralkatorrik's Torment" implies that he certainly didn't. He treated the Torment as more of a piece of himself, rather than influence from an external force. The Elder Dragons were greedily consuming magic without filtering them out properly, including Mordremoth, and this is what drove them further towards insanity - the more greedily they consumed magic freely, the more they were effected by Torment (aka Void-lite).

If they were "doing their best" to hold back the Void as their primary goal, then they would have avoided consuming magic without filtering.

As such, Jormag seems to be the only one, besides Soo-Won, who was actively trying to avoid consuming as much magic as possible, until Icebrood Saga (though there are inconsistencies with Jormag's past actions, like them seemingly trying to avoid confronting Primordus all this time, but Jormag... moved south... towards Primordus... after waking... towards Primordus... who's been awake for 50 years by then...). Mordremoth might have tried "resisting" in the past allowing him to be more cognizant than the others, but he was pretty solidly just consuming all magic, especially Zhaitan's death magic, during HoT. And he's the one who even directed Scarlet to feeding him pure ley-lines, so he wasn't even actively trying by the time of this dragonrise.

Soo-Won banished the Void durning the creation of Tyria and created the other Elder Dragons to keep the magic under control, therefore keeping the Void at bay. Ancient as Tyria itself then, they must have one of the most complex knowledge of all beings about the origin of Tyria. They kept the control over the magic by consuming their specific magic spectrum, which is nothing less than filtering it. They never desired to consume the other types of magic. They did so out of desperation to keep them contained. For as we can see, in the end they were all affected negatively by doing so, in one way or another. The death of Zhaitan caused a rupture which they were trying to fix since then. A rupture they have never expected and had no knowledge how to handle properly. Durning the Torment fight, we can clearly see Kralkatorrik consumed only the magics belonging to the perished beings, to keep it sealed. He left Primordus´s, Jormag´s and Soo-Won´s magics alone. The Torment was indeed a piece of himself. He was fractured by the Void going stronger, thanks to the magical imbalance. But it was still his own mind, you could liken it to a kind of presonality split.

Jormag themselves have developed very early their own machinations and (fitting the persuasion theme) can be a bit difficult to read. But with the death of the three, they have come to a conclusion the need to keep the original balance is over. They always believed freezing the Tyria, stop the motion, stop the change is the best solution (clearly visible from their monologue). Naturally, Primordus as the Elder Dragon of Fire and Destruction (which is indeed a change), representative of oposite beliefs was the greatest obstacle of it. With the magic running wild non the less, they could finaly get rid of Primordus and then just wait if Aurene can really handle all the other magic types, which they clearly believed she can. For as Kralkatorrik stated: "They belong within you."

Remember, Elder Dragons view mortals basically as ants. They seek to sustain Tyria itself, not to keep every fly alive. If the mortals can survive durning the cycles, then be so. If not, well another ones are going to pop up in time.
Also, Jormag lies. Consider them a draconic version of Joko.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

its not a just a theory; its confirmed in end of dragons and mai said it directly at the reactor. its been a while since i played it but the line goes something like "she was trying to do the right thing and just went about it the wrong way". judging by all the evidence we have, scarlet lost the battle about halfway through; likely some time after requesting to study the watchknights (though she remains somewhat lucid for a while with the new voicelines, only in the remaster).

Mai Trin is not the most unbiased of sources about Scarlet, especially in EoD when she's had the echo of Scarlet in her head for a while.

Scarlet saw Mordremoth when she went into Omadd's Machine, and emerged changed.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The theory makes no sense, and with LWS1R even less so, because the Commander has that united force already. If this was Scarlet's goal, then she could have merely told the Pact and worked with them to take down Mordremoth.

The Pact yes, but the governments weren't actively supplying troops or supplies to it. That happened after the battle for LA and Mordremoth's presence becoming much more notable.
That's where the theory comes around from. Scarlet was trying to show everybody, not just the three orders (who were already united, but apolitical) the scope of the threat and how they had to unite.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

49 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That's where the theory comes around from. Scarlet was trying to show everybody, not just the three orders (who were already united, but apolitical) the scope of the threat and how they had to unite.

As yes, show the people how dangerous the dragons are... by mass murdering the people yourself.

The theory I am familiar with is the same one that Mai Trin and the recordings in LWS1R promote: Scarlet created the alliance with the intent of forcing Mordremoth to wake up (thus become vulnerable) and then attack Mordremoth directly. All originating from Scarlet's journal:

It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet_Briar's_Journal

But LWS1R expanded on it:

Scarlet...?: If... WHEN the time comes, everything I know will be devoured. It is going to happen, and I am not prepared.

Mai Trin...?: If you're talking about the attack, preparations are—

Scarlet...?: I am talking about the result.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recording_1_(The_Evacuation_of_Lion's_Arch)

Scarlet...?: There's nothing else I can do.

Scarlet...?: Jennah didn't listen. Trin... A disappointment.

Scarlet...?: We were born to call you "mother". The others look to you for protection. Guidance. They follow like livestock.

Scarlet...?: Where is my guidance? Where is my neatly paved path to "enlightenment"?

Scarlet...?: Argh! (pounds table)

Scarlet...?: There is no path. My cards were dealt in blood. My mind, torn open.

Scarlet...?: (heavy breathing)

Scarlet...?: I only have one option. And the earth will crumble and crack beneath it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recording_2_(Scarlet's_End)

But if her goal was to confront the Elder Dragon, to prepare for its awakening after forcing it awake... why not tell the Commander when they first met. This... mind boggling direction... made more sense back in the original LWS1, when it was written to take place concurrently to the personal story - before the Pact was founded. But with LWS2 it became "after the PS", after the Pact, after felling Zhaitan.

So all the comments of "you don't know what you face" by Scarlet to the Commander...

Scarlet Briar: Well, well... The rats scurried out of the sewer. Nice to finally put a face to the tail.

Scarlet Briar: It's a shame the queen forced my hand, but I must say: you're quite the dance partner, "Commander."

Scarlet Briar: This is something I didn't anticipate, and while I love a bit of excitement...

Scarlet Briar: I urge you to desist.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet's_Playhouse

Scarlet Briar: My little friend from the Pact. Just couldn't stay away, could you?

Scarlet Briar: You're curious. I can smell it.

Scarlet Briar: I was curious, too...

 

Scarlet Briar: You don't know who you face...

Scarlet Briar: What you face.

Scarlet Briar: I see it for a fleeting moment. Every time I close my eyes.

 

Scarlet Briar: (pained grunt) Get...out!

Scarlet Briar: (heavy breathing)

Scarlet Briar: (laughing)

Scarlet Briar: The ground is writhing beneath us.

Scarlet Briar: Oblivion.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Tower_of_Nightmares#Dialogue

Well, they make no sense. Why wouldn't the Commander know what they face, they've killed its sibling already.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well, they make no sense. Why wouldn't the Commander know what they face, they've killed its sibling already.

Because the commander doesn't know of the connection between Sylvari and Mordremoth at the time, and the power of his call to obay?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Soo-Won banished the Void durning the creation of Tyria and created the other Elder Dragons to keep the magic under control, therefore keeping the Void at bay. Ancient as Tyria itself then, they must have one of the most complex knowledge of all beings about the origin of Tyria. They kept the control over the magic by consuming their specific magic spectrum, which is nothing less than filtering it.

This, I am fully aware of.

2 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

They never desired to consume the other types of magic. They did so out of desperation to keep them contained. For as we can see, in the end they were all affected negatively by doing so, in one way or another.

This, however, has no support. In fact, Soo-Won's dialogue at Mother's Lament suggests the opposite:

Soo-Won: A while, yes. I created them as tools—mindless as Nature—to stay the Void's unrelenting push toward entropy...

She created them as mindless tools. Created to stave off the Void, yes, but created to work on a function not on a choice. Not once do the Elder Dragons ever acknowledge avoiding other types of magic, not once do they ever acknowledge the Void's existence or their purpose being different. For as we can see, in the end they were negatively affected, indeed...

But they were negatively affected because they never even tried. The entire narrative of the Elder Dragons is that they were endlessly greedy, and consumed magic without worry. 

2 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

The death of Zhaitan caused a rupture which they were trying to fix since then. A rupture they have never expected and had no knowledge how to handle properly. Durning the Torment fight, we can clearly see Kralkatorrik consumed only the magics belonging to the perished beings, to keep it sealed. He left Primordus´s, Jormag´s and Soo-Won´s magics alone. The Torment was indeed a piece of himself. He was fractured by the Void going stronger, thanks to the magical imbalance. But it was still his own mind, you could liken it to a kind of presonality split.

And this is where you're wrong, blatantly so.

The madness did not begin with Zhaitan's death. Kralkatorrik was affected by Torment well before - and the very dialogue with his split personality is proof of it. Because the Torment drove Kralkatorrik to kill Glint, something he did not.

Kralkatorrik: Child of my child...

Kralkatorrik: I only hope that you never have to kill what you love.

And he killed Glint five years before Zhaitan's death.

The Elder Dragons had greedily consumed all magic and wiped out civilizations countless times - they began the dragonrise doing so, and we know of at least two prior dragonrises where they did so. And it was their endless greed and their affliction of Torment that led them to do this.

Kralkatorrik: Torment is blinding. It lies.

Kralkatorrik: Its pollution steals my sense.

Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

This dialogue of Kralkatorrik mirrors the mind of Kralkatorrik that Snaff encountered during the novel Edge of Destiny, during the moments that Kralkatorrik killed Glint. As confirmed in the Guild Chat accompanying War Eternal's release, the Torment did not begin with Zhaitan's death - the conflict of magic has existed in Kralkatorrik for several millennia. If the Elder Dragons were desperately trying to stay off the Void and never ate other domains of magic... Kralkatorrik would not have been driven to kill Glint.

[mandala.8507]

8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well, they make no sense.

Makes no sense to YOU.

The concept of a villain stricken with derangement who started out with honorable intentions is not new or confusing.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Because the commander doesn't know of the connection between Sylvari and Mordremoth at the time, and the power of his call to obay?

They didn't know of that connection, but they did know of Mordremoth - of there being six Elder Dragons in total. And they knew full well of the power of the Elder Dragons.

And that just exemplifies my point: if Scarlet's goal and intent was confronting Mordremoth why didn't she tell the Commander of this connection?

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

Makes no sense to YOU.

The concept of a villain stricken with derangement who started out with honorable intentions is not new or confusing.

So what you're saying is... Scarlet's actions make no sense.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So what you're saying is... Scarlet's actions make no sense.

No. That's what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with you.

What are your thoughts on Shiro Tagachi assassinating the emperor? Do you think his actions make sense?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

No. That's what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with you.

What are your thoughts on Shiro Tagachi assassinating the emperor? Do you think his actions make sense?

Given that his inferred goal was to kill Angsiyan before Angsiyan killed him? Yes. The assassination does make sense. It isn't clear why that would lead to him stealing Angsiyan's magic, but it's not a nonsensical action either - especially given Abaddon's manipulations. Shiro never fought against Abaddon.

Conversely, Scarlet's inferred endgoal is to wake and then kill Mordremoth, but she never actually put efforts to use (or even warn) the established army and Dragonslayer to confront Mordremoth. It would make sense she didn't at the end of her struggles, where she ended up losing the struggle of her control - but she clearly had control still before and even during Tower of Nightmares, yet made no such actions to get actual assistance from those who could fight Mordremoth.

Both may have been manipulated and driven to the brink of insanity by an external force, but there is a key difference between them: Shiro's actions are not contradictory. Scarlet's actions are contradictory.

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Given that his inferred goal was to kill Angsiyan before Angsiyan killed him? Yes. The assassination does make sense. It isn't clear why that would lead to him stealing Angsiyan's magic, but it's not a nonsensical action either - especially given Abaddon's manipulations. Shiro never fought against Abaddon.

Conversely, Scarlet's inferred endgoal is to wake and then kill Mordremoth, but she never actually put efforts to use (or even warn) the established army and Dragonslayer to confront Mordremoth. It would make sense she didn't at the end of her struggles, where she ended up losing the struggle of her control - but she clearly had control still before and even during Tower of Nightmares, yet made no such actions to get actual assistance from those who could fight Mordremoth.

Both may have been manipulated and driven to the brink of insanity by an external force, but there is a key difference between them: Shiro's actions are not contradictory. Scarlet's actions are contradictory.

So you don't think her efforts to enlist Jennah's help were her trying to warn the established powers that be?

And what are your thoughts on the short story added with the re-release of Living World Season 1, the Mysterious Fable?

Because this piece heavily implies she tried to do the right thing at first, but eventually had to take matters into her own hands because no one would listen or care.

She took an extremely Machiavellian approach, and eventually succumbed to the outside influences on her mind, but that doesn't mean her actions didn't make sense. She was building an army of goons to go take the fight to Mordremoth, likely in the hope of being free from his influence. How does that not make sense, but Shiro assassinating the leader he was sworn to protect because some rando lady told him to do so does?

To me, they make equal sense (if not Shiro's actions being less justified than Scarlet's, in my mind) — so what really doesn't make sense to me is how you've decided one does and the other doesn't. 

[mandala.8507]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 Not to mention, you've got a timeline problem with your analysis of Scarlet's actions.

The Commander and the Pact weren't even things when she was setting all these plans in motion. Thaumanova happened an entire year before our adventures as the Commander began. Was she supposed to just magically know that years after setting her plans in motion, the perfect person and unified force would come along and be able to accomplish her goal in a less volatile way?

By the time we're in the picture, she's just too far gone mentally and too deep into her own master plan.

Timeline from the wiki says she entered Omadd's machine in 1321, and made the decision to confront Mordremoth not too long after. We weren't there. If you're a Sylvari Commander, it's still 2-4 years until you're even born.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They didn't know of that connection, but they did know of Mordremoth - of there being six Elder Dragons in total. And they knew full well of the power of the Elder Dragons.

And that just exemplifies my point: if Scarlet's goal and intent was confronting Mordremoth why didn't she tell the Commander of this connection?

 

Because she's an unknown outsider suddenly coming forward (and mostly unknown to the orders) going "Let's go kill the jungle dragon right now, even though it's not awake or has any active minions"? The Pact during the entire period of season 1 was in the process of recruiting, rebuilding assets, and preparing to campaign against Kralkatorrik. 

16 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 Not to mention, you've got a timeline problem with your analysis of Scarlet's actions.

The Commander and the Pact weren't even things when she was setting all these plans in motion. Thaumanova happened an entire year before our adventures as the Commander began. Was she supposed to just magically know that years after setting her plans in motion, the perfect person and unified force would come along and be able to accomplish her goal in a less volatile way?

By the time we're in the picture, she's just too far gone mentally and too deep into her own master plan.

Timeline from the wiki says she entered Omadd's machine in 1321, and made the decision to confront Mordremoth not too long after. We weren't there. If you're a Sylvari Commander, it's still 2-4 years until you're even born.

Also during season 1 the pact was being rebuilding it's military strength, as well as planning and gathering materials for a campaign against Kralk. It was Mordremoth's suddenly awakening and activity that forced them to shift targets and take the fleet to the jungle with reinforcements from all the nations.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

24 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So you don't think her efforts to enlist Jennah's help were her trying to warn the established powers that be?

And what are your thoughts on the short story added with the re-release of Living World Season 1, the Mysterious Fable?

Because this piece heavily implies she tried to do the right thing at first, but eventually had to take matters into her own hands because no one would listen or care.

She took an extremely Machiavellian approach, and eventually succumbed to the outside influences on her mind, but that doesn't mean her actions didn't make sense. She was building an army of goons to go take the fight to Mordremoth, likely in the hope of being free from his influence. How does that not make sense, but Shiro assassinating the leader he was sworn to protect because some rando lady told him to do so does?

To me, they make equal sense (if not Shiro's actions being less justified than Scarlet's, in my mind) — so what really doesn't make sense to me is how you've decided one does and the other doesn't. 

Except she didn't try to enlist Jennah's help. The "talks" that get referenced is just her trying to get in on making the Watchknights.

The Mysterious Fable seems like a parody for Mordremoth (Sumac) Scarlet (Lychnis) and the Pale Tree (king) to me. However, it's very clearly not accurate to what actually happened - Scarlet by her own admission never tried to do "the right thing". The short story What Scarlet Saw makes it clear that Scarlet was actively ignoring the Pale Tree's protests against poking Mordremoth's mind, and her journal shows that the only one she went to was a mender, and for nightmares before she realized what Mordremoth even was.

If the fable is meant to be an "accurate" depiction of Scarlet's actions then, well, sadly... it's a pretty blatant retcon to make Scarlet the retroactive good guy when she never was. Especially since she was confirmed by writers to have been "born" a sociopath. Perhaps in there lies the difference in our point of views - in the original release I was around for, it was very clear cut that Scarlet started as a villain, and ended as a puppet to a bigger villain.

5 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 Not to mention, you've got a timeline problem with your analysis of Scarlet's actions.

The Commander and the Pact weren't even things when she was setting all these plans in motion. Thaumanova happened an entire year before our adventures as the Commander began. Was she supposed to just magically know that years after setting her plans in motion, the perfect person and unified force would come along and be able to accomplish her goal in a less volatile way?

By the time we're in the picture, she's just too far gone mentally and too deep into her own master plan.

Timeline from the wiki says she entered Omadd's machine in 1321, and made the decision to confront Mordremoth not too long after. We weren't there. If you're a Sylvari Commander, it's still 2-4 years until you're even born.

She didn't fully "put her plans into motion" until she began uniting the Flame Legion and Dredge into the Molten Alliance though, and during which the Commander was very much a thing. And again, Scarlet interacted with the Commander, making the false claims of "not knowing what we face" during Clockwork Chaos and Tower of Nightmares, long into the Commander being a known entity and the Pact being a thing.

And she's not "too far gone mentally" until The Origins of Madness - that's in fact the original purpose of her voice change going from loony to sinister in the original. There's a notable tone shift in her and that marks the moment of "too far gone". So during Clockwork Chaos, she's still largely in control - even in Tower of NIghtmares, with LWS1R we see her losing the battle, but still in control.

So while she may have "made the decision" to confront Mordremoth in Fall 1323 AE, two years before the Pact, she didn't begin to put her plans into motion until spring 1326 AE, and she was still mostly mentally sound until fall 1326 AE / spring 1327 AE. And not once did she even consider telling the Commander she's fighting an Elder Dragon.

Which is the issue when you decide to retcon the motivations of a character, but not their actions.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Because she's an unknown outsider suddenly coming forward (and mostly unknown to the orders) going "Let's go kill the jungle dragon right now, even though it's not awake or has any active minions"? The Pact during the entire period of season 1 was in the process of recruiting, rebuilding assets, and preparing to campaign against Kralkatorrik. 

Also during season 1 the pact was being rebuilding it's military strength, as well as planning and gathering materials for a campaign against Kralk. It was Mordremoth's suddenly awakening and activity that forced them to shift targets and take the fleet to the jungle with reinforcements from all the nations.

There's a difference between saying "The Elder Jungle Dragon, Mordremoth, is the origin of the sylvari and may be capable of controlling them once woken! You should really prepare for when that happens!" and saying "hey, weaklings who're recovering from killing Zhaitan, go kill this other Elder Dragon for me."

And even then, either one of those is a huge difference from "fine I'll do it myself... after I terrorize the continent and get the ire of three of the largest cities / nations of Tyria against myself specifically and not a threat you don't even know about, which I'll attack after I've drawn your ire."

What, was she thinking the armies would unite to chase after her as she made her way to Mordremoth's abode and go "oh kitten it's not a lunatic sylvari we're dealing with but an Elder Dragon, best kill it with these Elder Dragon killing weaponry we brought to take down a sylvari." Because if that's the case, she's definitely not the lauded genius the game makes her out to be. 😄

[stormemperor.3745]

Considering how many creatures commander killed scarlet is nothing less than nothing.

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Especially since she was confirmed by writers to have been "born" a sociopath. Perhaps in there lies the difference in our point of views - in the original release I was around for, it was very clear cut that Scarlet started as a villain, and ended as a puppet to a bigger villain.

Can you share this supposed confirmation, because I'm not familiar with it.

And I was around for the original release. It was always apparent to me that Scarlet had a certain duality to her, even in the original release of season 1. It was never apparent to me that she started out a villain. I never saw that in her character, hence the actual difference in our point of view: which is that I'm disagreeing with you because I think you're incorrect.

[mandala.8507]

32 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And she's not "too far gone mentally" until The Origins of Madness - that's in fact the original purpose of her voice change going from loony to sinister in the original. There's a notable tone shift in her and that marks the moment of "too far gone". So during Clockwork Chaos, she's still largely in control - even in Tower of NIghtmares, with LWS1R we see her losing the battle, but still in control.

So...the Sylvari who strangled her mentor in cold blood and took on an entirely new name and persona? This is the character you're saying was still of sound mind and in total control?

To quote Vorpp:

Quote

This is Synergetics Headmaster Omadd's isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out. I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara's aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic.

[...]

Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There's a difference between saying "The Elder Jungle Dragon, Mordremoth, is the origin of the sylvari and may be capable of controlling them once woken! You should really prepare for when that happens!" and saying "hey, weaklings who're recovering from killing Zhaitan, go kill this other Elder Dragon for me."

And even then, either one of those is a huge difference from "fine I'll do it myself... after I terrorize the continent and get the ire of three of the largest cities / nations of Tyria against myself specifically and not a threat you don't even know about, which I'll attack after I've drawn your ire."

What, was she thinking the armies would unite to chase after her as she made her way to Mordremoth's abode and go "oh kitten it's not a lunatic sylvari we're dealing with but an Elder Dragon, best kill it with these Elder Dragon killing weaponry we brought to take down a sylvari." Because if that's the case, she's definitely not the lauded genius the game makes her out to be. 😄

Still, she wasn't in her right mind when she was forming the alliances, and was also being influenced by Mordremoth's nudges to suit his own goals as well.

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So...the Sylvari who strangled her mentor in cold blood and took on an entirely new name and persona? This is the character you're saying was still of sound mind and in total control?

To quote Vorpp:

Yeah she woke up and immediately murdered him and left his body as a decoration. She may have not fully succumbed to Mordremoth's control, but she was not operating on the same goals as she was before.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

Can you share this supposed confirmation, because I'm not familiar with it.

And I was around for the original release. It was always apparent to me that Scarlet had a certain duality to her, even in the original release of season 1. It was never apparent to me that she started out a villain. I never saw that in her character, hence the actual difference in our point of view: which is that I'm disagreeing with you because I think you're incorrect.

Don't have a link but it was part of the sylvari-focused interview with Scott McGough by the GW2 roleplaying community site, iirc.

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

So...the Sylvari who strangled her mentor in cold blood and took on an entirely new name and persona? This is the character you're saying was still of sound mind and in total control?

To quote Vorpp:

I am not saying she wasn't cruel, sadistic, or sociopathic - she rather was even before then based on What Scarlet Saw and dev commentary. I'm saying she still had the capability of logical deduction and reasoning for her actions after the fact. I'm saying she was still fighting against Mordremoth until Origins of Madness.

With LWS1R you can directly witness her slow decay of madness.

And about Vorpp - he's repeatedly depicted as someone who looks down on sylvari, heck when confronted about his involvement in experimenting on sylvari during Season 2 (before LA was reconstructed and he was still in the refugee camp) he outright just handwaves it away as an unimportant past deed:

 I know you experimented on sylvari.
What? I imagine your friend Caithe told you, hm? Well, that was a long time ago. The world was a different place back then.

Dude's practically a war criminal with his actions. He also claims Scarlet saw the Eternal Alchemy, when what she witnessed was The All - and yes, they are different, as The All is about the magical balance system of Tyria, and the Eternal Alchemy is the philosophical view that all things in existence, even external Tyria, are connected. 

The "aura patterns" he talks about is just a way of saying that Mordremoth got to her. But her mind wasn't "literally broke" - as proven by the journals, and her own dialogue in LWS1. Vorpp is the textbook definition of an unreliable narrator.